Ep 7: Atif Qadir
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[00:00:00]

Atif: Yeah. I think the path I took was probably very serendipitous. I didn't realize how many like leaps I was making along the way, ~ uh,~ because I was just doing them.

Silvia: Welcome to Tangents by Out of Architecture.

Out of Architecture is a career resource network helping designers apply their incredible talents in untraditional ways. We're highlighting some of our favorite stories from the amazing people we've met along the way. We will hear how they created a unique career path for themselves from the wide variety of skills and talents they developed in and out of architecture. ~And can you say your name for me so I get it right when I, in the intros later? ~

Our guest today is architect and developer, OTIF Kader. I hope Tiff's insights leave you feeling empowered to explore roles beyond your initial field as Atif states later on.

Your vocation is just one way of exercising your skillset.

Atif: ~Sure, uh, my name is Atif Kader. ~

Silvia: ~Thank you, Atif, and ~ welcome to Tangents!

Atif: Thank you, Sylvia, I'm happy to be here.

Silvia: Great, ~uh,~ our favorite question, how would you describe [00:01:00] yourself in three words?

Atif: Sure, this is a great because I've just been working on this with a life coach, which I totally recommend to anyone that pivot points in their career.

I would say the three words that I would use to describe myself would be adventurous, together. And memory, which aren't really actually like adjectives, but I think those are words that I would use to describe myself and the way that I approach my work and the world around me.

Silvia: I don't usually ask this upfront, but can you go a little more detail about the memory and like the together the ventures, you know, like I'm sure we'll hear about that, but I'm really curious about the other two.

Atif: Yeah. So I think what I found is that~ the, the best. ~I do my best work with other people and in an iterative format. So that means like talking through things and then often talking through things again and again, which can get annoying for other people, but mostly just as a way for jogging my creativity and thinking about.

[00:02:00] Alternate ways. So I'd say my creativity is best through tinkering and adjusting and modifying as opposed to blank canvas. And here's the masterpiece. Uh, so I think for me that leans into this idea of being together. And also my nature is very gregarious and I guess humans by our nature, we're all pack animals anyway.

Uh, so that, that. is the way that I would add some more color to the together piece. And then memory for me, what I think about is, um, I think for a while I've been the, the soccer dad in my friends group. So I'm the one that will Organize like weekend trips or organize, I just had an election night party.

Um, and now I'm organizing, uh, like an extended family reunion in January. And then for my mom's 75th birthday, a, cruise to Alaska, uh, in next summer. So all of that stuff I find are things that I really enjoyed doing because they create. [00:03:00] These, um, uh, like places for memory. And I think that that's, um, what I do like in a forward way, then like in a backwards way, I love having like a treasure trove of old photos and using, for example,~ uh,~ Google photos, ~uh,~ facial recognition, ~um,~ capacity, just like to.

To be able to see who is who in old photos, especially as older relatives pass away to be able to keep all of that information intact. So that's the way I'm going to add some color to the memory piece too.

Silvia: I love it. And I feel like if you're creating memories, you're also creating experiences, right? I feel like it all pertains.

And even as you were talking about the iterative process, like this is very much stuff that architects love to do and do. Yeah. So excited to hear more about it. ~Uh,~ what is your background in architecture?

Atif: Sure. So I'm a licensed architect. So I have the three letters after my name and I did it during the ancient times when there were seven exams.

So I think now it's like six or five and you can like [00:04:00] do anything for your experience. Now it's like a lot harder. It was a lot harder back then, but anyway, so I have the AIA, uh, some licensed architect. I worked, I did internships, at Raphael Vignoli. architects, and I had explored a little bit of the unusual paths.

So I worked for the Boston Housing Authority, um, as well, uh, and then for a real estate developer, ~um,~ as internships all early on. And then I worked for Gene Kaufman's firm. ~Um,~ so I did a lot of work on hotels and residential projects with him. And then, ~uh,~ went to Turner Construction. I'd say that's probably the, ~um, the, the~ most traditional portion of my, my career.

Silvia: Since the traditional side of things, what did that journey look like and where did you go? And yeah, anything about that would be, let's hear it.

Atif: Absolutely. So I'll say a little bit about why I left design to go into construction. I think that'll set the stage for the rest of it. ~Uh,~ so basically I, ~um,~ realized that I wasn't great in everything when it came to architecture.

And I think that's one of those sobering [00:05:00] realities is if you're an overachiever in high school and overachiever in college, you can assume you can do everything really well. But what I found is that the extreme detail oriented nature of being behind a computer, ~um,~ wasn't. really something I was that great and frankly just made a lot of mistakes on design sets too.

And I actually enjoyed the interactions with people a lot more than sitting behind a computer. So, ~um,~ I kind of the inkling that being like a Working up the ladder to, I guess, a project manager or whatever that title would be, or project architect, what probably wasn't the best fit for me. And, I took the opportunity to join Turner Construction.

They actually reached out and this was right before the global financial crisis. So they needed like a lot of staff. So I joined them and, ~um, I,~ I realized that my skill set was a lot better. Utilized being detour into, but just in a format where I'm like out and doing things, not behind a [00:06:00] computer. ~Uh,~ so that, ~uh,~ that was kind of like the main thing that I think set the stage for everything else is that, ~um, ~while at Turner, I realized that.

A lot of the decisions of what gets built, I'd assumed was decided not by architects and engineers, but by the construction people. But then when I was there, I realized that a lot of what they do also is respond to what clients want. ~Uh,~ so, ~um,~ I wanted to get a graduate degree and I was pretty much licensed at that point, so I didn't need to do an MArch.

Um, so then I chose to do an MBA and then worked in real estate development after that.

Silvia: And then, um, what are you doing now?

Atif: Sure. So I'm, uh, the founder, ~uh,~ and partner of Amanath Properties, which is a real estate, ~um,~ development and investment company. And I'm in the process of selling everything. So basically I've sold, uh, two development projects that I built, and now I'm selling, ~um,~ the assets in a workforce housing portfolio that I built over the, ~um,~ past year since leaving Excel development.

Silvia: Can you share, ~like, um, I, I know you mentioned~ why you left the traditional [00:07:00] architecture and found a better fit, and I can definitely relate to that, like, you know, you see what's ahead of you, you're not really, ~like,~ wanting that for yourself, but also, I remember, like, getting so stressed because I felt like I should know things or I should be better at things, so I can definitely relate to all of that, but, ~um,~ what other Thoughts did you have or helped you decide?

Was it hard to leave architecture? Or maybe we'll start there.

Atif: Do you know, to be honest, I'd say I don't particularly think that I've left architecture, which is kind of funny. ~Uh, ~I'd say yes, in a traditional sense, it's been a very long time since I've been an architectural designer. ~Um,~ but I still have the, the license and ~the,~ the AIA.

And I think. Perhaps like a, an old world mentality is that your vocation is your skillset, but I think in reality, your vocation is just one way of exercising your skillset. So in that regard. Like you can ask the very [00:08:00] provocative questions. So what architects like? What are they good at? What do they do?

And I think that's the core of the consulting work that out of architecture does for folks that are looking to move to other career venues. But I think in my experience with myself and then with folks that are architects that have moved to other venues besides design, it feels like the common characteristics are a sense of Duty or obligation to something bigger and desire to work with a team context and not be a lone wolf.

And I think,~ uh,~ the kind of very strong knacker ability to identify a problem, assess the resources and then come up with a solution to address the problem. ~Uh,~ I think those are the things I find as commonalities amongst the. ~Um, the~ folks that I I'm friends with that are architects, but are doing something different now.

Silvia: And you still use all the skills that you've grown with and like, ~um,~ utilize that [00:09:00] made you well, like ~that you, that would have to,~ that you would need to make a good, be a good architect. I think they're just. Things that would make you ~like~ helpful in life in general right like you have to learn how to talk to people and problem solve as you were saying, and I find that those are like very good skills that come in handy at all times.

Um, so. Can you go back and, ~um,~ elaborate a little more because, ~uh,~ from Turner to then creating your own, ~um,~ development company, ~like, uh, how, how,~ how does that start or happen?

Atif: Sure. Yeah. I think the path I took was probably very serendipitous. I didn't realize how many like leaps I was making along the way, ~ uh,~ because I was just doing them.

~Uh, ~but I'd say the, from Turner construction, the, the first kind of pivot. Point out would be, ~uh,~ having, ~uh,~ been a mentor for the ACE mentor program. So that's architecture, construction, engineering, and that was the first exposure that I had to people that were on the client side. So those [00:10:00] weren't developers per se, but they were folks that worked in the real estate group at Morgan Stanley.

~Uh, ~so that was like the first kind of experience that I had in that arena. And then also at Turner, ~um,~ interacting with the clients. So the DTC and the, ~um,~ DASNY. So that's the, there's a lot of acronyms, but it's design something or other, some division of New York city, ~uh,~ government. And then the other one's a division of, ~um,~ the state governance, the dormitory authority of the state of New York, that's DASNY.

So those are clients that I had that were on the public sector, ~um,~ and then on the private sector, but on say financial services side. So from there, then I, I kind of got the exposure and then. Went to business school at Columbia, and I focused in real estate. ~Um,~ I worked for a developer in Canada, ~uh,~ in the summer between the two.

And then I joined Extel development. ~Um,~ so Extel was where I worked for three years in development and acquisitions. Uh, and that's where I went from, I would say like. Okay. And doing proformas to like pretty bad ass. So I could [00:11:00] build like a 35 tab proforma, like super complex with like lots of inputs, totally getting like jazzed up about Excel formulas.

And actually there was a point where like my architect friends, you just thought I'd gone off the deep end because I was basically telling them like, you can be so creative with Excel. Like there's such, you can be so elegant with how you write. Uh,~ Uh,~ and they just didn't get it. So that's basically like the path out from Turner to development.

And then from development to doing my own thing was basically, I, ~um,~ started buying, uh, investment properties, really small stuff like condo, which is. Their condos like for a hundred thousand bucks, 200, 000 bucks, ~um,~ in Jersey city. So I went through the whole process of like, similar to what I said earlier, but the way architects approach a situation, like I want to learn about real estate, like taking what I'm learning at X talent to a smaller degree.

So then I was like, who are the people I need to talk to? So I need to go on tours with, um, [00:12:00] brokers. I need to go to open houses. I need to, ~um.~ Just get started. And so I started buying those. And then eventually that grew to, ~um,~ what I, what I built today, which was, ~um,~ two development properties that I've built and sold.

And then the workforce housing portfolio. And I'd say a key piece of that was meeting the Hanini group, which was a developer based in Newark. ~Uh,~ so it's three brothers. ~Uh, ~they're Palestinian. They're awesome. ~Um,~ really, really thoughtful, really amazing work that they do. And essentially I saw an article about them in the Wall Street Journal and I sent them a postcard because I have that's just been my secret weapon as I send postcards to people that are cool and sometimes they get back to me.

Uh, and I just literally wrote them a postcard saying, Hey, I saw an article about you guys in the wall street journal. I don't need a job or anything. Cause I work at XTEL, but I just wanted to reach out and say, it was really cool to see somebody that looked like me. And then in the, in the, in the newspaper,~ uh,~ and, ~um,~ I [00:13:00] put my like, fuck, like a crazy person.

I just put my phone number like there and they called me and, ~uh, and~ Samer was like, Hey, you're, you seem really cool. You should totally come meet us.~ Uh,~ so then I just went out for pizza and I met them and we kind of clicked at that point.

Silvia: That is very cool. And I love like all the different jumps, like, or like steps that you've taken.

~ Did you,~ were you just kind of like following, like, this is cool. Let me go there, like pretty much,

Atif: pretty much. And I would say like, I mean, It definitely speaks to the adventurous nature of me, but I would say for folks that are listening, it's important to recognize what your like larger goals are and what your comfort level is with risk.

And I think that as you make leap to leap to leap, you lose something in each of those situations in terms of your ability to climb a prototypical corporate ladder. So if you have certain things that you want to accomplish by the time you're [00:14:00] 30 and by your time you're 40 and you're really certain about that, then I think you have to think long and hard about.

Entrepreneurship in general or moving from one venue to another because it's I'm describing in a very narrative way as if it were smooth, but there's certainly say, for example, two years of lost income that from X tell to to level setting to my own. To that, that same amount and then growing from there and development isn't something where you just get a huge salary.

It's actually like, if you leave development and then start your own thing, you're like here, then you come here, then you get like a this and then like this. So it's not, it's not all like, ~uh,~ Cookies and rice pudding and brownies and stuff. So

Silvia: yeah, but then that makes me think like, I don't think I have a high risk tolerance, but I also love chasing opportunities.

Like if I, like I'm thinking about [00:15:00] something or I want to pursue something and then I see an opportunity, like somewhat related to that, like I'm just going to reach out or talk. And like, I feel like I don't want to get stuck in like, Oh, maybe tomorrow. Or like, Oh, like I'll, I'll send an email later. Like, I just want to jump on it to let kind of like life take it along.

And I found that that has been very helpful in general, so I'm always trying to chase things, but then I feel like what other people might not have that same ~like, um,~ timeline or readiness, but so I understand what you're saying, like, about,~ um,~ if you want to pursue something traditional, you're ~kind of ~sacrificing that a little bit, or you have to understand what~ what what your,~ what your path may look like.

But I think it's so much more exciting to not the uncertainty part, but like seeing opportunities come together and just like creating the life you want by just following things that may be in front of you, or you have to like kind of like chase a little, I don't know, like, does that kind of give thoughts on that?

Atif: I think so. And I would say that The reality is that [00:16:00] I don't think that we are, that we are any more in a world where a traditional career is going to work. And I certainly don't think that's going to be the case in the near future. And I think it has to do with two, two very important things. I think one is the extremely relentless and rapid advance of artificial intelligence and machine learning.

So Google, for example, said that within a year they won't need programmers. That's bonkers. And you can already see in hiring and real estate development. It's there's actually pretty rare to find mid level, ~uh,~ roles are actually very junior roles. And then you're the partner at the company. They don't really hire for those roles.

So I think that that's another one where you're seeing the hollowing out of what would have been a traditional. Career ladder to begin with. ~Um,~ and I think the other one is that there's such wholesale changes to how people are using the built environment that if your [00:17:00] expertise say had been in,~ uh, ~in the design of retail spaces.

Good luck on that one. Or, ~uh,~ if for example, you had built your expertise in office fit outs, which was totally reasonable during the global finance, like before the global financial crisis, ~uh,~ and maybe even after it, but I think that those massive changes are the, how people are changing or how asset classes are changing and the rapid advance of AI and ML means I don't.

Think that there even is any traditional sort of career in our industry. And I would even say not just AEC architecture, engineering, construction, but also like adjacent stuff, like financial services too.

Silvia: Yeah, that makes sense. ~Like,~ I feel like when I was working in an office, you would see people that that might have been at that company for 20 years, and that's a good thing.

But now it's, I don't, and then like, I remember when early on, it's like, Oh, you shouldn't jump around careers too much because they'll think it's weird. Like now that is totally the norm that you are jumping around [00:18:00] different offices and that you might not be in one place for that long. ~Like, That, like,~ that has changed very quickly.

And then any, ~um,~ skill you have that, like, you were saying that's directly related to creating one thing, like, we have to rely more on our, like, problem solving or, like, ~Like,~ I can do anything, like, just give me a problem and I'll figure it out. ~Like,~ that has been much more useful and I think ~that kind of like, um,~ it sounds ~like~ undesirable to have, like, maybe uncertain, ~um,~ income or a career path, but at the same time I, when I talk to people on these podcasts, they also have this confidence that they can do whatever they need to, to make a job or a career or a project because of all the skills that they used in creating what they are now.

Atif: Yeah, I think that that the word that you said that's really important is confidence. And I think that it is

~ one thing that you don't,~ I think it's, it's important to keep in mind is that when you leave a corporate environment, corporate environments often have [00:19:00] things built in that. buoy your self esteem, which is promotions and titles and like awards. But then when you leave to go do your own thing, none of that really exists.

So you have to be so enamored by what you're doing and you have to be confident enough, not be overconfident, confident enough in yourself that you can do exactly what you said, ~uh,~ Sylvia. So I would say like at this point, it would be. Able, like being able to identify an opportunity that you want to pursue and then be able to pursue it.

And I think there by human nature, it's easy if you fail to then get very reticent to be confident and try again. But the very thing that you need to be doing at that point is to be confident and try again, because if you trend like retrench back, then your ability to succeed is going to be really hampered.

Silvia: Yeah, I can kind of see why people are usually have a career change like I don't know maybe like 10 [00:20:00] years in or like mid career because they're not quite like a principal level. They don't have any of the those perks. And then I feel like you probably already accomplished most of your goals that you had as a young architect or young person in your career, you get licensed, you got the promotions and then it's just like, There's 20 years before you'll get to the next one and you're like, do I want to do?

And it's yeah, like so many things you say make so much sense and you're still kind of like don't have a ton of experience like as much as people with 20 more years of experience than you. I felt that gap so much that I was like in my late 20s, young thirties, but I was working with ~like ~50 year olds, 60, 70 year olds doing the same work for the.

Most part, and it's like, I don't have their experience level, so I'm not quite confident enough to keep failing. But then once you unlock that, that this is just a step and this is how I learned to get to the next step. I think you don't want to get stuck [00:21:00] anymore.

Atif: Yeah. I think that the, the trouble is that.

If you look at people that are in those steps in those career above you, and it isn't attractive to you what they're doing or what they're earning, I think it's you owe it to yourself to, to at least explore what those options and opportunities are. And I think in having spoken to, ~uh,~ your colleagues, ~um, uh, ~Aaron and Jake, On out of architecture.

It's so fascinating. The network that they've built of places where you can do things like that, that don't have to do with the, the centering of experience. And I think that a lot of design firms really, or at least. It's been a while since I've been in a design firm, and I've been to an AEC tech conference last week, so I also saw another version of, of a, of the architecture industry.

But I think largely from my experience, the centering of [00:22:00] experience over skill, ~uh,~ and the fact that experience typically takes time means that you may not be doing something all that different from someone like you were saying, Sylvia, 10, 20 years older than you. And I think that. If you are able to center your skill and not your experience, you could make a leap from being a 25 year old designer at Raphael Vignoli and then go work at Nike.

Awesome.

Silvia: Yeah.

Atif: And, and then go work somewhere else. Cool.

Silvia: And just keep building. So I have like two questions. Well, actually, I'll start with this one.~ Um,~ what kind of resources did you find very valuable in all of the different parts of your career? You mentioned a lot about community and togetherness. So I'm sure you have like a somewhat of a network of supporting people.

But and then you mentioned out of architectures, which I find is like really nice to be among like Minded people because the people in your office are not all [00:23:00] think they might be thinking about leaving but they're not all going to leave so Meeting out of architecture and other people who have left their career like you were frustrated too Like why were we all just sitting there?

So it's really nice to like, ~um ~have that support system So like what do you find helpful? with your career

Atif: Yeah, I think there's a couple of things and I'm not going to say that I have been the best in each of these, but I would say, or the best in engaging and utilizing them, but I would say the first one would be, ~uh,~ The people that are at your level or your age cohort and basically just keeping tabs with them and see what they're doing because they're gonna be the most relevant to you because they're in the same life stage and the same like inputs about the economy and culture they're taking in.

I think then. The next area that really layers in is mentors. And I think for mentors, you have to build those relationships over time and then try [00:24:00] to be helpful to them as well and not see it just as a one way street. ~Uh,~ so I think that that. That piece is really important. And I think another layer that adds in is when you become a mentor for other people, because that is actually another support network too, because your mentees, ~you like,~ as they grow in their careers, then they are very useful as sounding boards or mirrors for you.

Because they have a similar experience, but there are 10 years say earlier or later rather, so their perspective on the economy and culture and business is just different. ~Uh,~ so I would say that feels like the backbone of it. People like are in your like age cohort, your mentors next, and then your mentees after that.

~Uh,~ and then I would say beyond that. engaging with different resources at the right times. So I think, ~um, I mean, like~ for anyone, career, life, et cetera, can be stressful. So, ~uh,~ taking advantage of either, ~um,~ asynchronous or in person forms of [00:25:00] therapy, like I use Headspace, which is really fantastic. ~Uh,~ and I think other areas that I've seen folks Really lean into is, ~uh,~ things like life coaching.

~Uh,~ so those are ones where you just have like a regular check in and sounding board about how you are approaching your career. And I think that one in particular is useful when you have left a traditional career path, and it's really up to you to define what it is that you're looking to do. So to have someone to keep you accountable, et cetera.

So I've had, ~uh,~ like a career career coach slash life coach, ~uh,~ in the past and continue to have that right now.

Silvia: Yeah. Can you share more about that? ~Like,~ how did you find this person or what were you looking for out of it? And like,

Atif: is

Silvia: that what you got out of it?

Atif: Sure. Yeah. So there's two that I'll mention.

So one that I'll say is, ~um, uh,~ Crystal Proenza. So she's a career coach, particularly in, ~uh,~ the AEC space. She's wonderful. ~Uh,~ and I got her information from an [00:26:00] investor. And one of my businesses. So ~I, um,~ during the time and building them on the properties, I also, built a startup called, ~uh,~ redist and we changed the name of it to commonplace.

So, ~uh, it. ~The goal of this company was to make economic development incentives a lot easier to use and to be able to find. So now we're in the process of wrapping up the company and we're selling the data, ~um,~ that we created. ~Um,~ I'm long and short, but we weren't able to succeed and get to like third round of financing and get to a product market fit.

But the reason why I bring that up is that. ~That was a,~~ ~I was essentially building a solution to a problem that I had as a developer. So I was able to raise a couple of million dollars of venture capital financing, build a team and basically get myself immersed in the tech world, which is actually, I think.

Talking what we had said earlier, like another leap that I made, ~uh,~ which I just did it because I was interested, but I realized there's very few people that go from design to development, to starting their own development company, to starting their own tech company. ~Um,~ which I think I was really fortunate to be [00:27:00] able to do, but.

In that path, one of my investors had recommended that I reach out to crystal and then myself and my co founder were able to engage with her. ~Um,~ as we were looking to grow the business, ~uh,~ and reach new milestones. And I think that her Like a lot of what that was was about structure and having like an ear to, ~um, like, uh, ~problems or issues or challenges or opportunities and getting like another perspective on the same things in like a regular structured format.

~Um,~ and then more recently, ~um, ~I actually started engaging with my sister who's a, ~uh,~ a life coach and she's, ~uh,~ starting that part of her, ~uh,~ career move as well. So both my brother and my sister retired. Last year in their forties, ~uh, ~and for me, I mentioned that I'm, I'm selling all my real estate and I'm winding down and have went down the startup.

So I met like a pivot point as well. So I mentioned that to her and she was like, yeah, why don't I'll just. I'll be your life coach and you [00:28:00] can be like my guinea pig. So I meet with her on Mondays and it's nice to have the perspective of a life coach that knows me for a really long time and can call me out on my BS when I say certain things.

So those are the two people that I'll mention.

Silvia: Yeah, very cool. That's great. ~Um,~ for people who feel stuck, ~like,~ where would you recommend they get started? Because I feel like you also want to have ~like~ a certain relationship or connection or ~like,~ it's not just like any person will do ~like, you know, like,~ so how do you ~kind of~ find, I don't know, I guess it's just trial and error.

How do you find what works for you?

Atif: It's like dating. So I'd say it's about the same thing for a life coach. And I think the same thing for, ~uh,~ I mean, just frankly about therapist as well. ~Um,~ because, ~uh,~ generally the way I've thought about it is that life coach, career coach is present forward and therapist is present backwards.

And that's usually the way that I've ~kind of~ divided the two. ~Um,~ and of course, past influences the. future, but generally, if I can divide them that way, it's been really helpful. But I would say in [00:29:00] both of those venues, it's about understanding what it is that you're actually looking for and understanding those different styles of doing both of them.

So,~ uh,~ in the case of life coach, I think if you are looking specifically for accountability, that's one thing. If you're looking for someone that is ~Uh,~ going to be like a sounding board for your business ideas. That's something different. ~Um,~ so I think being clear with what it is, your, why you're stuck rather than being declarative about being stuck.

~Um,~ and I think that one of the ways, if it's not clear, like what it is that you want to get out of this, or even why you're stuck, one thing that I've been doing is very consciously removing responsibilities and removing things in my life, so I've just been like. I actually part of like so many like boards and trustees and nonprofits.

And like, it just felt like I was doing a lot of stuff. So now I've consciously, like what you described earlier about [00:30:00] having your Sunday doing nothing is being able to remove the things that don't feel like. Like if you're not fully present in that activity, that's usually a clue that that's not the right place for you.

~Uh,~ so start removing all of those so you'll have like air to breathe and room to kind of stretch out and be like, Oh yeah, this is why I'm stuck. Because I think some of that perspective helps because otherwise you can just get super just like busy in this hamster wheel and thinking that's what life's supposed to be.

Silvia: Yeah, that 100 percent I like relate to that because my past year I was just doing a lot of things. I was chasing a lot of things that I was interested in and I really loved the experiences I got for them. Like I don't want to not do that. Like it's not that kind of situation, but I was so busy that like I was always had something on my mind or like I had an endless task, like list of tasks to do.

And I just felt like to get everything done, I was operating at like a level that I was not sustainable. Yeah. And like, I was, [00:31:00] it's like, it's a different kind of burnt out. It wasn't like, because you're doing things you want to do, but then I just felt like I never had any time to like, kind of be the person I wanted to be.

And my corner of like crafts is just like exploding of things I want to do. And I'm not going to let go of it. I'm like, I'm not going to throw it out. Cause I want this in my life. I just have no

Atif: time.

Silvia: So I'm really,~ like,~ focusing on creating that space for myself where I do have that time to engage in things I, like, always wanted to do.

And, like, why am I not doing them? Like, don't I work to make money, to have a life that I want, to have time that I want? Yeah. So, like, it's weird not doing anything, but I'm really trying to embrace it.

Atif: Totally.~ Sylvia, do you mind if I take a break for a second just to grab some water? I'll be back.~

~So, um, Sylvia, I, uh, have a Vesta board right here, uh, which is ~

Silvia: ~Oh my gosh! So cool! ~

Atif: ~It's the best. I'm gonna send you photos. I just finished the renovation of my, uh, home, so I'm gonna send you the photos, the professional photos of them. But the Vesta board's there. Um, but the thing that just, I just noticed at 10am is when it changes every day.~

~Oh! Today's like in line with literally what we were just talking about. It says, it's a quote by Anne Sexton and it says, uh, put your ear down close to your soul and listen hard. Uh, and I mean,~ I feel like what we're basically talking about is the givens. You're if you're here, you're born and then you're going to die.

So. The, this kind of career trajectory that we're on is meant to be something that gives you structure that [00:32:00] gives you economic freedom and gives you a means to connect with other people. And if those things aren't happening, then The point of you having a career isn't really being fulfilled. And I think the, the part that you said, Sylvia was really important is being able to recognize that you have like all your crafts and the things that you want to do and being able to make the space for that and not like push those aside or find out.

How you can get what it is that you want. And I think the real scary part of this process is it's a lot easier to be, ~um,~ on a hamster wheel. Like I'm doing stuff. I'm doing this stuff. I'm doing stuff because to be able to stop and say that what I actually want to do is something different could mean something super scary, which is like leaving a job, or it could mean recognizing the fact that.

You're gonna die one day. [00:33:00] I feel like those tend to be really scary things, but are actually quite like once you absorb it and get over it, it's actually very like, very like eye opening and endearing and liberating.

Silvia: Yeah, absolutely. Like me and my husband, we probably like are encouraging each other to ~like, you know,~ just pursue the life we want, create the life we want, even if it looks a little different.

~Uh,~ he went back to school, ~uh,~ like 15 years after change careers from civil engineer to PT. And I say this because when he talks to his current friends who have been in their careers now for 25 years, they're talking about like buying houses or like investment properties, this and that. And like,~ he's.~

~Like ~he hasn't been working for several years as he's been in school and he's like, it doesn't feel good to be the person quote unquote behind in those conversations. And ~like,~ that's a natural feeling. There's no other ways to go about that. But at the same time, we love our life. We don't want their life.

And like our future, you know, we can, if we want investment properties in the future, like that's not out of the picture. We're just not on the same track [00:34:00] as that. And like, so I guess it's like. Yeah, you can't compare yourself to people following the traditional role like you gotta just find what you want in life and like, I don't know, like shut out the noise.

Atif: Oh, totally. Yeah, because I think that~ there are, ~it's never going to be a, ~um,~ like you're never going to get like the invitation to do it. You're going to get it. Like I think kicks in the butt, ~uh,~ or you're going to find really great role models that you attach to and, and try to emulate. And I think one that especially in the late thirties, early forties, I feel like I have so many friends that are in this zone, which is, ~um,~ the death of a parent.

The, ~um,~ illness of a spouse, ~uh,~ divorce, the, that is like ubiquitous, like across my friends, like every, like so many friends have had this type of a trauma, like plus or minus, ~uh,~ this age, this age set. And I feel like those are one of those [00:35:00] opportunities where you can take that as a very liberating thing to be like.

Yeah, like life can really suck. So why don't I try to do the things that can really make it. Make, give me the chance to enjoy it the best I can. ~Um,~ but I think there's also another way to go, which may be more dangerous, which is that you see that destabilization as a need for more stability in your life.

And I think particularly in this kind of economy and this world that we're in, like in terms of like. The issues that we mentioned before for our industry is that I'm not sure if seeking stability right now is probably the right thing. ~Uh,~ so, ~um,~ I don't know, those are just kind of like a few, a few kind of thoughts on that subject of, of kind of moving, moving around and finding your place in life.

Silvia: Yeah, for sure. And I think stability is, it's not really there, like a architecture company is not like stable. [00:36:00] Yeah, like the pandemic proved that lots of people got laid off, ~like~ even principals, like, I remember our studio, they were like, this is the number you have to drop your like, this the salaries by you can do it however you want you can like cut lower people or you could hire people and sometimes Like the bigger salaries go further.

So yeah, that was like and I was like, there's no stability ~like like the~ Something happens and then projects stop and then people get laid off and then they rehire really quickly. ~Like ~there's no stability. It's all Like a falsehood.

Atif: Totally. Yeah. And I think the, the question would be then the traditional way that people find stability is through their economic productivity.

And I think that what you described so, so succinctly is that that is a mirage. Uh, and In reality, there's probably two or three real areas of [00:37:00] stability that you, that I would encourage folks to really invest in. And I think that first one is yourself and the relationship to yourself and making sure that you, like this quote by Anne Sexton, is that you actually, like, You listen in and you do the things that are important for you and you make sure to keep learning and you keep doing all the things that make you happy so you can interact with the world around you in a good way.

I think another one is for as long as you have them as your parents. And I think that making sure that you invest in those relationships and those like aunts and uncles and grandparents, and I think the other ones would be the folks that are. your spouses, your friends. And then if you have kids, like your kids, like those three relationships, those sets of relationships feel like the ones that are the actual stable ones, or could be if the circumstances are right for you.

And I think that it's, ~uh,~ it's a [00:38:00] shame if one tries to find that through work at the behest of those other three things.

Silvia: Yeah, that's a great way to put it. ~Um,~ I really love the deep dive into like the, just like the thoughts and the feelings about like career changes, especially like the personal ones.

~Um, ~but I feel like you have a, I also want to ask this question because you have a very interesting perspective from being an architect, like client side, developer, development company, ~investor, or ~working with investors and then tech company,~ like. Do, ~I'm finding this myself that like, it's not the job that causes like the imbalance in the work life, ~um,~ balance situation.

It's also like the person, right? Like you could be the same workaholic no matter the job, but like, are there any insights you have from like just seeing so many sides of it? And this is, could be like, it doesn't have to be even like a career oriented. It could be like, just like a reflection on, ~um, ~the AC industry.

Atif: ~ I want to make sure that I'm, I'm saying something that is in response that, could you say that once more, the, the, what your, what inspired you? ~

Silvia: ~Yeah. I just feel like you gone like the complete gamut. Cause usually sometimes it's architect to client, right? Like, or sometimes architect to construct like a owner's rep or something like that.~

~Um, but like, I feel like you have so many different views of like getting a building built. Oh, ~

Atif: ~got it. Yeah. ~

Silvia: ~Just in general. But like. I also kind of like piggyback that with that you could be a workaholic in any situation too. So like nothing makes it easier. Like everyone's stressed in building a building, right?~

~Like the job, ~

Atif: there's no easy job. And I would say that that's easy to glamorize a particular [00:39:00] thing. Like say for example, to glamorize architecture, because you're doing These designs, but you're often very poorly paid. It's easy to glamorize being a developer, but your income, sure. You may hit it like a home run if you do it right, but you could also be a big fat zero.

~Uh,~ and along the way, yeah, you're the boss telling people what to do, but more of your time is spent being a babysitter, a janitor, a therapist, like a negotiator, like a. All those things that you don't want to be like, for example, like, because I'm the way I am, I would stop by construction sites that I had and just make sure that they locked the doors, especially when we had a lot of really expensive kitchen equipment sitting there.

And sometimes I found that the doors weren't locked. And I was just like, why am I, why am I the security man? Why is this happening? But that's what I was a security man. ~Uh,~ so, ~uh,~ I think that. Recognizing a lot of those, the grass is not greener in those other scenarios is, [00:40:00] is really important because there's a lot of tumult in getting something built.

~Um,~ that's just the nature of what it is. ~Um,~ but I would say that the,

having had the benefit of seeing the building process from so many different places, really what it comes down to is identifying. What problem is actually enamoring to you and how you want to particularly pursue it? ~Uh,~ and I think that after having like, perhaps like, I don't know if it's Jesus or Moses or I would go to the mountain and come back.

It's like, they're actually like, Not that different, all of these things, like right now I'm talking to a construction company about joining, ~uh,~ them and their corp dev and their strategy group. Cool. Yeah, I could, I could do a great job there. I'm talking to a, ~uh,~ VC about, ~uh,~ becoming the CEO of one of their companies that they're looking to grow and incubate and grow.

Cool. Yeah, I could do that too. ~Uh,~ or to join a startup to this, be the CEO of this existing [00:41:00] company to help them formalize their structures. Yeah, I could do that. And then also I'm working on a startup idea with my cousin, ~uh,~ and an artificial intelligence, another leap, but that, but AI is coming for our industries, I figure might as well learn it now on somebody else's time.

And then I have a business idea that I'm working on with my brother and my sister, a lot about, ~um,~ investment management and doing all the things that we've been doing in the background that allowed us to be, ~um,~ economically independent, but actually productifying it and making this a formalized thing as an investment management platform.

So the reason why I'm mentioning all those is simply to say that it's not like I'm. more skilled than anybody else. It's just that I've seen, I've been around the all sides of the block, as opposed to say other folks that may have been only one or two sides of the block. And I can tell you that the thing on the center of the block is exactly the same.

It's just a matter of how you're able to know the lingo, know the [00:42:00] jargon, know the structure and just Be confident that you can do it.

Silvia: Yeah. Thank you for eloquently answering my very convoluted question. ~Um,~ and then, ~so,~ out of all the things you named that you could do, ~is there like,~ Does the question of what do you want to do, is that even relevant?

Or is it more so like, this is what I'm going to do for now, and I'm going to have a good time getting into it and figuring it out? Because I think people think about what do I want to do and ~kind of ~get stuck, but I find that like, And my current job, like I like what I do. I wouldn't say it's like my dream job, what I want to do, what I, but I think I'm good at it.

My skills perfectly like contribute and align to it. And I feel impactful, but I wouldn't say like, this is what I want to do. So how do you make, like what becomes the new way to figure out the next steps in careers?

Atif: I actually really liked a lot of the, the tips that you brought up in, in your side of this conversation.

So listeners, make sure you [00:43:00] lean into everything that Saliha has said, but I think in particular, it's the, this idea that you are doing something and it doesn't need to be your everything because there's different place in your life where you get, ~um,~ a sense of accomplishment where you get a sense of connection.

And I think that, that. So Professor Ed Wharton, Adam Grant has become very famous around the good is better than great, that concept, that if it's fine, yes, go for it. And I think more specifically you had asked amongst these, which is the one that I want to pursue. I think that's where you're kind of, you're alluding to, I would probably take a step back and say, how does one decide what it is that you want to do?

And I think that there's a few filters. One of them is the money filter. Because if you have ~like~ a sense of ~like, ~I don't really have to work for 10 years, which is nice. ~Uh,~ so I can take the, like money is a thing I can consider, ~um,~ as like, what is it actually going to [00:44:00] give me? And is it worth my time to engage in this?

~Um,~ I think the second one is the timeframe associated with this, like how long of a thing is, what is the commitment? Is it Full time is a part time. Is it something else? And I think the last one is the, the people that you're working with. ~Um,~ I think a lot of times it can be. It can be easy to over index for mission or over index for like a sense of purpose, but I think those are rather fleeting and those are very illusory, because who actually is going to make a dent in.

Housing affordability and access. Who's actually going to make a dent in, ~um,~ the fate of poor people in America. It's you're not, you're just one person. And I think if you were to do, to really do that, you're going to really give up on a lot of other parts of your life. And you have to ask yourself, it's worth it.

It's probably not worth it. ~Uh,~ so I think in that realm, it's all of those things, but it's also about whatever it gets over the finish line first. So if you have five options and one gets is, it gets, you get the [00:45:00] option first, Go do it. Who cares? Whatever.

Silvia: I've been saying this to my friends recently and like, I won't say it in like a cheesy way, but ~like, yeah,~ like one in the hand is worth two in the bush.

And like, my husband's like, what does that even mean? Cause it's like, what birds, what bushes? Like, why, why do we still say this? ~But yeah. ~

Atif: I feel it's like some sort of Amish expression. And I think the idea is if you go back to what you were saying earlier, which is that the, or we were saying earlier, which is that the only givens is that if you're alive, that you were born and that you're going to die, then what are you waiting for?

Like, what are you waiting? ~Like,~ what is this perfect job? Perfect career, perfect thing, because it's going to be a lot more fun. I think ~just to, ~just to get out there and just do stuff. And I think it's. I think particularly when you're in your 30s and 40s, you feel like you have to have this title and this thing and has to be like in line with your career.

And I think your husband had a lot of guts to go from [00:46:00] a quote unquote traditional industry into another traditional industry, but it's like a different one. It's healthcare. So I think that from that perspective, it's like, okay, just take a second. I think you're 50. You look back.

So are you going to really remember that you made 10, 000 more here or 20, 000 more there? Who gives? It doesn't matter.

Silvia: Yeah. I think to that point, like it was why we're both okay. Like even me, like it's his career choice affects my life a lot too.

Atif: Totally.

Silvia: He was ~kind of like, ~not really into it. ~Kind of~ just like sit at a desk all day doing nothing.

And like, sometimes it really was nothing because there was just no active work and like, but he's still employed because it was like city jobs. It was just like, like just it's you're wasting away your valuable time. And like, that's fine for a few years, but not for like the rest of your life. Yeah. And now this is so aligned to his passion and his skills.

And like, he's really like. Thriving, shining, like in [00:47:00] his own way, like we thrive and shine differently. But like, it's so clear that this was like a good move for him. And it aligns with who he is as a person that like everything ~kind of~ else, like everything falls away. Like those what ifs and ~like,~ Oh, I wish like those aren't like, that's not what is important.

Atif: Totally. Yeah. I think the, it's that question of what is that, that little voice, like And sexy to say what is that thing? What is your soul trying to tell you? And I think once you recognize that a lot of the this kind of compulsion of planning and goal setting, ~um,~ once you let go of that, and I think one of the best The worst ways that can happen is if you experience a traumatic loss, like a sudden death in your family or loved ones.

So I mean, ~uh,~ tomorrow, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday is the one year anniversary of my dad passing away. ~Uh, so, uh, ~he died suddenly in his sleep, unexpected. ~Uh,~ and [00:48:00] it's one of those things where it's just like Wait, we had plans to go to India together in a month. Wait, we were, we had all of these plans and these things.

And I think that whether, I hope it doesn't happen to anybody else, but it's going to, that's just statistics. It's going to happen to a lot of people, ~uh,~ that type of an event. But You then recognize that this idea of if you didn't like being at a computer, just waiting for that next job to come, what if tomorrow doesn't come?

What if that's it? What if this is literally it? So is that the way you want to wrap up?

Silvia: Yeah, thank you for sharing all of that. Like, it's very impactful when you think about it. ~And, uh, hmm, what do you want to do for your last question sometime? So here's three thoughts I had, or maybe you have, like, or feel free to offer your own.~

~Like, one question is what fills your cup? You know, what drains you? But I feel like that's a better early on in the, um, episode, but I didn't get there yet. And then what are you looking forward to? But you already kind of, shared all of. interesting things that could happen in the near future, but still. Um, or advice to a younger self.~

~Not that like, it didn't sound like you necessarily needed advice, but I'm sure like looking back, like, I wish I knew this or like, I wish I thought this, I don't know. ~

Atif: Feel free

Silvia: to offer your own final words.

Atif: Yeah, it's basically saying what would be on your tombstone.

Silvia: Well, for a

Atif: podcast. Or your podcast tombstone.

~Um,~ I would say, I mean, all of the things, everything that you, that you asked, I would want to [00:49:00] touch on, but I would say, ~uh,~ so I was going to an event at the Morgan Library with, with a friend of mine, and she was in a, in a cab earlier that week, and the cab driver had said, ~um, ~One of the prompts you said is, is about what advice would you give the younger version of yourself?

And he said, he asks that to everyone in the car. He said, not everyone answers, but he asks that and he has this beautiful kind of story in his head of New York by the hundreds of people that have given that response and I asked her, what did you say to him? And she said, if I were to give advice to myself 20 years ago, I would say care a lot less about what other people think about you.

that's it. That's generally, generally it, and it feels both kind of sad, but it also is, I think the, the challenge of being human is that we care so much about the groups that we're with because we wanna be, we, we don't wanna be alone. We want to be with the group. So [00:50:00] conforming is really important, but I think it can go like to like an unnecessary extreme.

Silvia: Yeah, for sure. I was definitely there. And like, hearing those words for myself, it's not even like what other people thought about me. It's like, What I thought other people were thinking about me and they probably never even had those thoughts and I I'll never know if they had those thoughts but like I cared so much about stuff that I made up.

Yeah, so I guess that's like part of it. But yeah, that's good one.

Atif: It's so it's I think kind of demented is the it's what you said it's not what other people say it's what you think other people's Other people are saying or thinking and a great exercise is just to ask people and I think you'll get such a beautiful like perspective if you ask like maybe it's a little kind of funny but like if you ask mentees or people that are younger than you or nieces and nephews or even your kids like what do they think of you like if my mom were to ask like [00:51:00] I would there's She's probably not like heard like what I would say, but I think it'd be really meaningful to her.

So, ~um,~ actually I'm going to tell her on Thursday when I see her next. ~Uh, so, um, yeah,~ I think that it's important to recognize that. The holding yourself up to this, this status or this height that you have to achieve is so dumb because all you're gonna do is make yourself unhappy.

Silvia: Mm-Hmm. . Definitely. ~And actually, uh, do you have a minute to answer one more question?~

~Sure. ~So then what are you looking forward to? ~Let's left end on that note. . ~

Atif: Yeah. Do you know what I'd say is, um. Looking forward to, ~um,~ very specifically, I'm going to Spain and Portugal at the end of the year. So I'm very looking forward to that because it's been kind of a weird year for me. And I think given with like where we opened this conversation about adventure being one of the core ways that I see myself.

So I think doing trips like those that take me out of my comfort zone, ~uh,~ to Spain, Portugal, and I want to go across to Morocco to Tangier, ~uh, is, um,~ Is exactly who I am. So I want to I'm very much looking forward to that. [00:52:00] I'm really looking forward to moving these opportunities quickly to a conclusion.

And I think any of those five would be spectacular. I know which ones I'm leaning towards, but I'm not going to say we could give if given if one of those people that are involved in this, uh, but, uh, I would say I think that coming to a conclusion there is really important. And I would say I've been on this adventure this past year about removing things in my life that I didn't want in order to have room to be able to engage with the things that I do want.

So I feel like this has been a pretty ~kind of like ~rough year with like a lot of folks in my orbit passing away and illnesses and a lot of stuff. So I'm really looking forward to the fresh start of 2025.

Silvia: Yeah, thank you so much for this conversation. It was unexpectedly like really about like getting in touch with like your soul and like even hearing you talk about your travels.

I feel like sometimes like when you do things like maybe you don't travel all the time because you're busy but then when you finally go on the trip, it's [00:53:00] like this kind of like feeds my soul like this is like the person that like these experiences are like the life I want to live or the person That I want to be like this is they create that and like it's a really nice reminder So thank you for sharing all of that

Atif: sylvia Let me ask you what are the three words that you would use to describe yourself?

Silvia: I've done this podcast. ~Uh,~ jake interviewed me I think ~well, okay, so~ I said something like oh Uh, like a strong believer of commun in communication, because I still definitely, like, love that. Because if you are not clearly communicating with someone else, nothing happens. Like, if you're saying something and it's ineffective, then nothing happens.

If they don't even know what you're saying, or if you don't say it, it doesn't happen. So, like, lover of communication. And I think, like, oh, like something like a cheerleader, dreamer, yeah, something like that.

Atif: Okay, cool. I mean, it feels like when those words is you definitely lit up when you were saying those, is that when you, ~uh,~ find those things that are [00:54:00] you.

Those actually become really useful ways of decision making when it's a career or ~um,~ other kind of personal decisions that you have, because those are the levels I like for me, like, sure, yeah, maybe I could save a buck and do some other stuff if I didn't go to Spain, but I felt like if, if I said my number one thing that I used to describe myself is adventurous hat, wait, how

Silvia: would

Atif: I not go there if I had the opportunity?

Right. ~So, yeah. ~

Silvia: Well, have a great trip. And I'm really looking forward to hearing more about like what you're up to in the future. So yes, thank you so much for this conversation.

Atif: Yeah, thank you, Sylvia, for having me. And thank you for Out of Architecture and Tangents for creating this space for conversations to help other architects at various points in their evolution.

So thank you, Sylvia.

Silvia: Yeah, for sure. Have a good one.

Atif: Thank you.

Erin: *Hey everyone. It's Erin from out of Architecture. If you find these stories *[00:55:00] *inspiring and are looking for guidance, clarity, or just need someone to talk to about where you are in your career, please know that we offer 30 minute consultations to talk about what may be next for you. If you're interested, head to out of architecture.com/scheduling to book some time with us.*

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