Ep 5: Makoto Eyre
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[00:00:00]

What we're effectively doing is taking the cause of the climate crisis and turning it into a critical part of the solution my career has these three buckets, right? ~Um, ~architecture, aerospace, and climate. And again, it's a meandering path, and the thread has largely been seeking out impact, working on difficult things

welcome to Tangents by Out of Architecture.

Out of Architecture is a career resource network helping designers apply their incredible talents in untraditional ways. We're highlighting some of our favorite stories from the amazing people we've met along the way. We will hear how they created a unique career path for themselves from the wide variety of skills and talents they developed in and out of architecture. Our guest today is Makoto Ayer, co founder and CEO of Homeostasis. Initially trained as an architect, Makoto's career took a pivot towards mechanical engineering and aerospace, driven by a desire to broaden his impact on society.

His [00:01:00] expertise culminated in co founding Homeostasis, a climate tech startup focused on converting CO2 into graphite for lithium ion batteries. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Makoto as much as I did. And I hope it encourages you on your own career journey.

~And can you say your name for me? Sure, ~

~Makoto Air. ~

~Thank you and ~welcome to Tangents. ~oh and also this podcast is, I might have said this already, this podcast is edited so like if anytime you want to redo an answer or say it or take a time, like take a moment to compose your answer, you know, everything is free game.~

~Sounds good, I appreciate that. ~

~All right,~ and our favorite question, how would you describe yourself in three words?

~ Three different words. ~

~Not even actually like I this is a very open ended question so you can answer it. However works for you. ~

~Yeah So if I had three different words~

I'd say curious Neurotic and empathetic

Those are really good words. ~If you, if they were, what were you thinking? Three words, no, one word three times or? ~

~Oh no, as in like, you know, I like candy would be.~

~ It can be any which way. And sometimes like the third word can just be like a phrase because like everyone like describes themselves a little differently, but curious is a very popular one. Neurotic, we have not had before and empathetic we had. And I think that's a great trait to always include. ~

~ Given that we're talking to former architects, I'm surprised that neurotic hasn't come up before.~

~That a lot of us are, uh, have a little bit of that in there somewhere. ~

~For sure. And I'm looking forward to hearing how the neurotic systems comes out. Yeah. ~

~Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, It has a negative connotation and for good reason, like, you know, it's, it doesn't have a helpful or rather, sorry, it doesn't have like a positive sense of emotion or set of emotions.~

~Um, but it is. In many ways, like trouble seeking, um, as in an ally for planning, identifying what things can go wrong. And so I find as a result of my neuroticism, I'm actually really well prepared for things. Um, so I think it could be a good thing if you use it properly. ~

And, um, what is your background in architecture?

~Um, just like my, uh, my pathway into it. What, what did I do in ~

~like, um, yeah. What is like, what have you done in architecture? Where did you. Sometimes where did you start or like, yeah, ~

yeah, so I got I got my bachelors of architecture at Rhode Island School of Design.~ Um,~ I graduated in 2014. ~Um,~ I worked for several years in New York and Seattle.

And then ~how did you, what would, what were, ~where did your transition out of architecture lead you to?

Yeah, I mean, that's a, that's a bit of a long story. ~Um, so, uh, ~ Given that I graduated in 2014, it's been only 10 years, but it feels like it's been way more than that. Um, so ~I, uh,~ I was working at this [00:02:00] firm called SKB Architects.

~Am I allowed to name firms and all that? Okay. ~

~Yeah, it's fine as long as you don't care. ~

~Yeah, I think it's Alright, so I was working at this firm, SKB Architects. Um, in~ located in Seattle, a boutique architecture firm, really beautiful designs. ~Um,~ we would do a high end residential, ~um,~ commercial, ~um,~ a lot of public spaces.

It was great. I loved working there.~ Um,~ and, ~uh,~ I was learning a lot from the, ~uh, the ~principals of the firm, ~uh, ~the seasoned architects of the firm,~ um,~ a lot of talent, a lot of mentorship. ~Um,~ I also felt that my career trajectory was not on the path. Of making the types of impact on humanity that I wanted to see.

So when I went to architecture school, there was a lot of, , conversation around how the built environment can, have an impact on society. And there is a lot of latent potential in there. We aren't really the ones that are making those decisions though, right? We, we are at the, we are servicing customer who is often a developer, which is fine, right?

That is what we should do. We are, we are servicing, , we were servicing them. but as a result, [00:03:00] the types of ideas that, , I and some of my colleagues back in school were thinking about in terms of how we can have a positive impact, which, ~you know, ~actually a lot of architects, generations of architects have been considering, ~Um,~ don't get built.

~Um,~ and so I figured, okay, well, I need to kind of reposition where I am. And I also found this idea that I really need to expand my tool belt. I found the architecture and construction industry to be extremely siloed, ~right? We, uh, we would~ as a firm be focused on the design of a project, ~um,~ bringing consultants for things like lighting, certain engineering tasks.

~Um, Uh, ~airflow and that's fine. There are different specialties, but then we would then look at the general contractor for the construction of things and they would bring on all their subs. So I remember being on calls. With something like eight different companies represented on the call. And we were all saying that we represented the client in some way.

And I just found that to be so convoluted, like ~how,~ how are we going [00:04:00] to be effective if we're effective essentially pulling in eight different directions? That's what it felt like, We're all kind of negotiating for our piece of the pie. And so I was just ~kind of~ seeing all these different elements and I felt personally that my path wasn't aligned.

And as an industry, some changes had to occur. ~Um,~ And if I was having that critique on the industry that I should work that on myself and expand my tool belt. So I went back to school. I put myself back in school for mechanical engineering, went to the University of Washington. ~Um,~ and at that time I had really set my sights on aerospace, which kind of sounds out of the blue.

~*Um,*~ growing up, I was really, ~uh,~ into airplanes. I figured I wanted to be an aeronautical engineer before I, ~uh,~ Went into architecture. ~Um, and, uh,~ and so I ~kind of~ fell back in love with with aerospace. This was around the time that Blue Origin and SpaceX were landing their rockets and you could watch the videos and just hear.

The cheering ~from,~ from the engineers, right? Like ~the, ~the blood, sweat and tears that went into making that happen. And there was this feeling that ~I had that was, you know, that that's kind of, ~that's a key part of [00:05:00] being human is experiencing that amount of effort coming down to this one moment. ~Um, and~ I want it to be a part of that.

and also related was the fact that Blue Origin and SpaceX were talking about in very real terms, having people living and working in space. Large numbers of people. And I figured, okay, well, I can kind of augment my architectural background with some mechanical engineering to support humans in space, space architecture.

~Um, ~and so that was the journey that I started going on. this is quite a bit of a long answer. ~I apologize. How, how are we doing here? ~

No, it's great. It's really setting the tone ~of like,~ I appreciate it because you're ~kind of like ~painting the picture for us of~ like~ where you, Ended up. ~Um,~ and it helps just instead of ~like~ answering like I did this and I did that just like I do ~like~ hearing the thought process behind all the parts.

~So do you want to, I mean, it's your story so you take you include as many parts as you want, but you can do you want to let us know what you're doing now or like how you started on this path of space architecture. And can you also let us know a little more like about what exactly space architecture is.~

Yeah, ~yeah, happy to. Um, so it, and the reason I'm interrupting myself there is because it's a meandering path, so it doesn't end at space architecture, right? But, um, ~so space architecture is exactly what it sounds like. It's, it's architecture in space. ~Uh, it's looking at, okay, you, you have this, um, ~you have a habitable spacecraft.

You have people inside of it. ~Um,~ how do you support healthy, comfortable, efficient [00:06:00] living, ~um, ~in these non terrestrial environments? The flavor that I found most interesting were instances of microgravity, or what people will say is zero gravity, right? weightlessness, floating, everything changes, right?

~Uh, ~something that people like to talk about often is just how the ~surfaces, the different ~surfaces get redefined. There is no floor, there is no ceiling, at least not a static one, right? ~You, uh,~ an astronaut would say you carry the down with you. So as you're moving around, wherever your feet are pointed, your body registers as that is down.

and so that could create some pretty, Fun and at the same time really jarring experiences. Like,~ um, ~there was one astronaut who was talking about coming out of the shuttle. ~Um, ~and, ~um,~ the shuttle when it's in on orbit, ~it, um,~ it's orientation looks like it's inverted with the earth. Right? So it's heat shield is actually pointed.

Outward, ~um, and, uh,~ the bay doors are open or are oriented towards the earth and the airlock is within those bay doors. So the [00:07:00] astronaut would be exiting from the cabin, ~um, ~with the bay doors facing toward facing towards earth. But ~what that~ what that means is, ~I mean, ~the shuttle is built so that it has a floor and it's oriented with.

Overall, so you're basically going from the floor being underneath you and you're ~kind of ~getting out from the airlock to all of a sudden down being way that way, right? ~Like, ~what registered is up previously, ~um, is now~ is now down. And I think that they were, ~I don't know, ~something like 400 kilometers. ~Um, in, ~in altitude, right?

So the, the astronaut was describing just all of a sudden having this white knuckle moment, right? Because ~your,~ your paradigm, like the space that you're operating with in just shifted on a dime, and the feeling of disorientation can be overwhelming. So,~ you know, taking,~ taking a lot of those things into consideration, and that's ~kind of, you know, ~certainly a fun part, but also just thinking about,~ okay, ~how do you make a really comfortable door?

Right. In space. What does it mean to sleep in space? Right. If you look at a lot of the sleeping arrangements that astronauts have right now, it doesn't look that great. I'm not a fan of Velcro, [00:08:00] right? But people need stuff like Velcro in order to put things on the wall because otherwise they'll float all over the place.

But if you just, if you look at what the interior of say the ISS, the international space station looks like today, there's just way too much Velcro all over the place. The materials that they use. Don't look that great. Like there's so much opportunity to just bring the standard of living up. Now there's good reason why they have those things, right?

You need to be really efficient from a mass standpoint. But nonetheless, I think that we, there's a lot of opportunity to rethink what it means to be supporting human function and having good design in space.~ Um, ~for those that want to look at, or learn about something a little bit gross, ~um,~ but yet again, another really good design opportunity, using the bathroom and space and the training required for it, ~ um,~ is, um, comical.

I mean, again, there's a reason for it. It makes sense, but it's also hilarious to learn about.

Yeah, those are really good examples of just like how you have to shift your context and like kind of question [00:09:00] everything you know, but also take what you know and apply it to a new Place. So those are really great. ~Um, ~and ~like you said,~ that's not where you ended up. But,~ um,~ while you're making these like career moves, what did you kind of always keep with you in the way that you do things like in the way you work?

Are there things like qualities or, ~um,~ good, like work habits that just helped you along the way?

I think this is where the three words come in to mind. ~Uh, the, the,~ the curiosity was always there. ~Um,~ that always~ kind of ~led me to~ the next. ~The next thing, right, I think ~part part of~ part of the reason why I move around a lot is because I just want to keep learning and absorbing new information.

I like to stand my toes. ~Um, and~ and I find that time moves really quickly when I get comfortable in that that bothers me. ~Um,~ so ~I like to,~ I like to keep things~ kind of ~up in the air. ~Um,~ the neuroticism is great for again, planning for that, right? So thinking several moves ahead. Okay, well, there's this pitfall, ~this pitfall.~

Now that can be overwhelming at times and result in inaction. ~Um,~ and so I like to couple [00:10:00] that with a few set of simple rules to ~kind of~ keep myself in check and make sure that I'm able to progress forward. ~Um,~ and also, ~uh, have, have a,~ have a moment to take a step back and just look at the. Community that I'm a part of right at every point along the way.

I've been extremely lucky with the fact that I've had, ~um,~ supportive people, both in terms of peers and mentors. ~Um,~ and so when I made the transition away from architecture, going to school for mechanical engineering, it didn't feel like the floor was falling underneath me, or falling away from me. ~Um,~ there was always the opportunity to move back into architecture.

~Um,~ similarly, so I, I did work in aerospace for a number of years. I worked, ~uh,~ at NASA briefly, ~uh,~ on the Lunar Gateway Program, ~um,~ before moving on to Blue Origin at the Advanced Development Program. Primarily on Habitable Spacecraft, there are a range of programs that I was working on there. ~Um,~ but,~ uh,~ moving away from that instance as well, just nothing but support from all my colleagues and peers.

So, that kind of helped quell some of the neuroticism and risk management, like, okay, I am looking ahead, but if I have to move [00:11:00] back, ~um, ~I have a good community. ~Um, and then what was the third word that I used? Empathy, empathetic. ~I, I think it's the empathetic component that really helped,~ um,~ establish those kinds of connections.

~Um,~ I genuinely enjoy, ~uh,~ speaking with people, interacting with people. And as someone that genuinely enjoys it, I know that I also appreciate it when someone that I'm interacting with expresses something genuinely. And so I would like to think that some of the reason why I've been so lucky with this is because of.

Partially because of ~the, ~the, everything that I'm able to bring to the table.

And does that also help you, ~um, click, like, uh,~ decide what you're going towards? Because I guess the things that you were describing, like making more impact or like not loving the way that like the architecture office was, were set up with all the different, ~um, ~consultants, it just like the feelings you've had, ~those can mean,~ those feelings can manifest into different things from different people.

And even for one person. There's so many different paths you can take. So~ how did you, ~what helped you like see the path through all of your steps? ~I guess, now ~looking back.

~Like, how do I figure out what the next thing is? ~

~Yeah, like, how does it all make sense to you, I guess? ~

~That's assuming that it makes sense to me. I ~

~assume it makes the most sense to you.~

~Yeah,~ well, 1, 1, 1 clarifying note, ~um, when I, ~when I was [00:12:00] expressing, ~uh, you know, ~the concern around how the architecture industry is organized. It's more more. So the industry, I thought that the office that I was working at, operated really, really well. The principles were really focused on maintaining a mid sized firm that there's a degree of intimacy.

And that we could really get to know both each other, ~um, and the,~ and the customers, ~um, that we,~ that we worked for.~ Um,~ they were great at establishing relationships with the consultants. ~Um,~ I just found from a more general perspective that, ~uh, they're ~having that many parties under one roof trying to get one project done and having to do that every single time just seems like a funny way of organizing things.

So ~that's,~ that's not a critique of the firm that I worked at, more so just the industry.

~The, uh,~ in terms of mapping forward, like just looking at how,

~I mean, I think, I think the, the main,~ the main components that, that are at play there is a desire to make an impact, a positive impact,~ uh,~

to work on difficult and impressive things. I really like engineering. ~Um, I think that ~it's borderline a romantic view of engineering. Like there, there are [00:13:00] things that I will see people do. ~Um, ~that bring a tear to my eye. The Europa Clipper, that we just recently launched, ~Uh, there's a, um, ~there's a YouTube channel whose name is ~forgetting, uh, is, uh, ~escaping me at the moment.

~Um, ~something like incredible engineering or something like that. They walk through,~ um, ~all the different elements, the different instruments that they have aboard the Europa, the different missions that came beforehand to examine Europa. ~Um, ~and, ~uh,~ deter, like identify it as a target worth, ~uh,~ exploring.

It's just the human ingenuity can be beautiful to, ~to, to~ witness. And so, ~um,~ I think ~there's, ~there's a combination of just wanting to be more a part of that. ~Um,~ and also wanting to make an impact that is the singular thread. And to maybe, ~you know, we're, we're kind of, ~keeping the endpoint, this nebulous thing, just to ~kind of~ name what the three primary errors have been, right?

So we could maybe speak a little bit more, ~uh,~ clearly about these different points. There, there was architecture when I first entered ~the, um, uh,~ the market. There was [00:14:00] then, ~uh,~ my time in aerospace. ~Um,~ and I am now a co founder of a climate tech, deep tech startup. And what we're doing there is we're pulling co2 out of the air and turning that co2 into graphite.

Graphite's just it's crystalline carbon. And graphite is a critical material for lithium ion batteries. So it functions as the anode. It quite it holds onto the lithium ions when you're holding the charge. So it's it's The component that literally holds the charge in the battery. It's a critical part. ~Um,~ and there are a bunch of supply problems today.

So what we're effectively doing is taking the cause of the climate crisis and turning it into a critical part of the solution. So anyway, my career has these three buckets, right? ~Um, ~architecture, aerospace, and climate. And again, it's a meandering path, and the thread has largely been seeking out impact, working on difficult things.

~Um, ~and, ~uh, yeah, ~I would say those are the primary ones.

Yeah, that's a really great story. I loved how you also talked about like the romantic view [00:15:00] of engineering, because I think ~like~ that speaks to the passion, right? ~Like~ everyone has something that they love very much so, and then hopefully they can combine that passion with their career too.

Tell me more about your current role and ~the Sorry, what did you call it? ~The deep tech, ~um, ~environmental tech.

Yeah. Climate tech, yeah, so the, the startup is called homeostasis, ~um,~ for,~ uh,~ my fellow nerds out there, homeostasis, ~uh, being, um, the, uh, um,~ basically the, the. biological function of maintaining equilibrium.

~Um,~ and what we're viewing is Earth as a biological system. ~Um,~ and, ~uh,~ we as a company are working to maintain homeostasis for the Earth. ~Um, ~so my, ~my, uh,~ role here is I'm co founder and CEO. ~Uh, my, uh,~ my co founder in this is Julian Lombardi, a childhood friend of mine. We grew up in New York together, ~uh,~ played on the same little league team.

We skateboarded through the streets in New York together. He's a, he's CTO, chief technology officer. ~Um,~ his background is,~ uh,~ he has a Ph. D. in [00:16:00] chemistry, material science, ~um, the, uh, the,~ the specialties of methylase,~ uh,~ and the synthesis and characterization of transition metal oxide nanoparticles for energy storage applications.

Basically, he's a crystal structure is expert. He knows how to make and examine, ~uh, ~crystalline material,~ um,~ specifically for energy storage, which is perfect for what we're doing because we are making graphite, which is crystalline carbon, ~uh,~ for batteries.~ Um, ~My job has largely gone from a technical one to a business development one.

So, my day to day is mostly interacting with investors, with customers. ~Um, um,~ we're soon going to be flipping the order of that, by the way. So, ~uh,~ we have been in a fundraising mode, which is why I mentioned investors first, but, ~um,~ we're wrapping that up shortly and I'm excited to be focused purely on customers.

~Um, Uh,~ and then, ~um,~ also identifying what the vision of the company is, right? So, of course, there's the 10 year vision. What are we working towards? But more importantly, there is the, what is the five year vision? ~Um,~ what is the three year vision? What's the two year vision? What's the one year vision? And then, [00:17:00] also, what are we doing this quarter, right?

So, making sure that each step along the way, we are making meaningful progress towards that 10 year goal. That 10 year goal makes sense. ~Um,~ and we're,~ um, you know, ~all that requires constant updating, constant modeling, ~um,~ working with customers to make sure that what we're selling is something that is aligned with their problems, right?

We're solving something real for them, ~um,~ and that the economics that we're able to bring to the table, ~um, are, are,~ are viable. ~Um,~ all the while making the kind of impact that we want to see.~ It's,~ it's a difficult nut to crack. ~Um,~ and one of the really beautiful things about, I'm biased here, but one of the really beautiful things about homeostasis is that I think we have one of the more effective climate tech solutions out there.

~Um,~ in that we have a product that is better, more sustainable and cheaper than the incumbent. ~Um,~ and that I think is the only way you could have mass change is by really coupling those three together.

That is very cool. How did this start with you and your co founder? Were you just talking [00:18:00] together? ~Like,~ was this something that you always wanted to do together?

Or , did the paths align?

Yeah, ~we, we, we~ growing up did not think that we were going to be launching a startup together. ~We, um, ~we were, ~you know,~ in adolescence, we were focused on skateboarding and food and art and Being being adolescents, right? ~Um, the, uh, ~ when it started, I think ~it really~ our relationship started adjusting around the time that I had made the move from architecture into mechanical engineering.

~That that was a,~ that was a moment in my life where I was really leading into my curiosity and allowing myself to open the aperture, ~um,~ a bit more of the things that I would be looking into. So it went from. ~Um,~ reading almost exclusively architecture and design books to, ~um,~ reading a lot more about a whole bunch of STEM fields.

And here is a really close friend of mine getting his Ph. D., publishing papers. thought leader in his very specific space. [00:19:00] It's like that's that's fantastic. There are so many terms in here. So many ideas in here that I just do not understand. Let me try reading his papers, understand them as best as possible and bother him ~when~ when he has time to ~kind of~ figure out what's going on here.

He was extremely patient. We would get lunch together at times. I was living in Seattle and he's in New York. So we had to sometimes just make it virtual conversations. But,~ um, uh, ~He would very patiently just ~kind of~ walk me through concepts, ~um,~ confirm when I got things right, correct me when I got things wrong, ~um,~ and it ~kind of~ existed in that state for a little while,~ um, ~and, ~uh, ~the funny thing is, so while I was, ~uh,~ in school and then moving on into aerospace, a component of engineering habitable spacecraft that I found like, ~uh,~ of an interesting topic, ~um,~ was life support.

~Um, ~so for the most part, what I was doing was ~configure a configuration, uh, ~configuration, engineering, configuration and systems engineering. ~Um,~ what that basically means is you, you look at all the different traits that come together to make spacecraft, and you find a way of [00:20:00] them coming together so that it doesn't turn into a plate of is what I like to call it, right?

If you peel away the skin. of, a, really any aerospace system, things can very quickly become chaotic just because there are so many different trades that have to come together, right? Data, electricity, airflow, fluids, structures, right? These things ~are, are,~ are competing for space and limited space at that.

~Um,~ but anyway, ~uh, with, with,~ with life support, one of the really interesting things is, okay, well. We're effectively trying to make an ecosystem that supports humans, right? Partially physicochemical, there is a move right now to work in some more biological processes. They would call that ~biological, um, uh, biological, uh, ~bioregenerative,~ excuse me, bioregenerative~ life support.

~Um, ~and,~ um, ~I, uh, started a project while at the University of Washington, which is where I got my mechanical engineering degree. ~Um,~ called bio arcos, where we're using algae to effectively scrub CO2 from cabin air and regenerate oxygen supply all the while producing biomass that can be consumed or somehow utilized otherwise.

So again, looking at making the [00:21:00] spacecraft an ecosystem of sort, an engineered ecosystem, that project, I started working with a few, ~uh, ~peers who became, ~uh,~ really close friends of mine, ~um,~ one of whom, ~uh,~ Is actually working with us now at homeostasis, which is great. His name's Conor Guyman, a fantastic engineer.

~Um, uh, ~but we, that team grew to a good 10 student engineers across mechanical engineering, chemical engineering, and bioengineering, ~uh,~ departments at the UW, we're getting credits for this. It was turning into a thing. We started pitching this as a startup though. We pivoted from, ~uh,~ focusing on space to more terrestrial markets because Space is a very long play.

~Um,~ and the terrestrial markets that we really started diving into was, ~uh,~ capturing CO2, ~um,~ for the purpose of, of climate. ~Um,~ but instead of doing it from ambient atmosphere, we're doing indoor environments so that we can A, help ~Uh, uh, ~increased cognitive performance. So, ~um,~ a little bit of backstory there, ~uh,~ as CO2 levels rise indoors, ~um,~ that actually impairs cognitive performance, things like decision making, strategic, ~uh,~ thinking, ~um, there,~ there's nine different measures, and this is a field that I'm not necessarily an [00:22:00] expert in, but, ~um,~ you want to see CO2 levels stay below, say, a thousand parts per million.

For reference, atmosphere is around 420 parts per million. Offices, schools, our homes quite regularly go above a thousand parts per million. That, that feeling of air getting stuffy. Getting brain fog as a result, wanting to go outside fresher, like that, that is a very real experience and largely driven by CO2 and also moisture content.

And so we were starting to create a system that would scrub CO2 from indoor environments without requiring ventilation, which is very energy intensive, right? You're effectively taking conditioned air, throwing it outside and then taking non conditioned air and bringing it in and reconditioning it. You can use heat exchangers and all that.

But, ~um,~ it's still fairly, ~uh,~ energy intensive. And so by integrating some of, ~uh,~ our hardware, we were finding that you could increase the energy efficiency of a building by quite a substantial percentage. ~Um,~ so we were excited about all this.~ Um, ~however, ~uh,~ myself, Connor, who was [00:23:00] another lead on the project, and then,~ uh, uh, ~Anika, who is, ~uh,~ a third, ~um, uh,~ lead on the project.

Again, super talented engineer. ~Um,~ we all got hired into really cool aerospace company. So I went on to Blue Origin. ~Uh,~ Connor went on to a place called Orbitfab. They do in space refueling.~ Um,~ and Anika went on to Northrop Grumman, ~um,~ working on, ~uh,~ effectively robotics for, ~um, uh,~ being able to, ~uh,~ have one spacecraft approach another and for the two to ~kind of~ couple together.

Right. So again, we were working on some really cool stuff. And as a result of that, Bioarcus dissolved, but that really the bug stuck there, right? ~Um, the, the,~ the carbon market bug stuck there. And I just continued building things on my free time and given the history that Julian and I had, ~um,~ and me bothering him about papers and all that, I just ~kind of ~as a natural You know, friend and technical collaborator.

We just started talking about this stuff and reading papers and then we started building things. And at one point, I found I was removing CO2 from my living room air at a certain rate and was able to measure that. And that was really interesting. And [00:24:00] then at one point, he was able to break down the carbonates that I was producing, which is the kind of end result of that CO2 removal.

break it down into carbon, oxygen, and regenerative metal oxide. And we created what we called carbon on a stick. And it was ~kind of~ at that moment that we thought, well, we've got something really unique here. ~Um, let's,~ let's push forward. Sorry, that answer was so ~ I'm particularly wordy today. ~

No, I love the wordy answers, ~um,~ because you're just telling your story.

And also, it was really cool when you were talking about all the carbon in the environments we are, because that's the same stuff architects have to learn about when they, ~like,~ have to study for exams, ~like, well,~ or get certifications or things like that. And these are things we should be conscious of in general as architects.

Thank you. That the spaces we create that are inhabited by people. And we want these spaces to be good for the people as well. Do you think that ~was like, I mean,~ this is going to be a now leading question, but like your background as an architect probably ~like ~gave you some context for ~like~ the road ahead, possibly.

~I would say that~

~I so I wasn't I wasn't really caught up on. ~Well, I learned about that while doing bio [00:25:00] Argos. I think I knew that,~ um, ~ventilation was often monitored ~or ~or controlled by monitoring CO2 levels. So CO2 levels are ~kind of~ seen as a proxy for overall air quality. lot of the terms are escaping me at the moment.

So there, there was ~some,~ some background there, but, ~um,~ there was also quite a bit of, well, I'm learning a whole new aspect about this industry that I used to be a part of, ~um,~ one, one other thing. So I mentioned those three things that, ~uh,~ as curiosity, neuroticism and empathy that,~ uh,~ helped carry over from architecture, ~uh,~ forward.

a skill set that I learned from architecture school maintained through my time as an architect and really helped me, ~um,~ I think,~ uh, ~perform really well as I went into engineering,~ um, ~is drawing. ~Um, ~and that, that sounds really basic, ~maybe to,~ maybe to architects, it's not, maybe every, everyone on the podcast understands.

~Um, but, uh, there, there,~ there was a point where as I was learning new concepts, ~Um, ~particularly for things like chemistry and physics, where you're learning the [00:26:00] fundamentals that feed into the thing that you're engineering. But I mean, even mechanical engineering, right? I mean, the different mechanisms that we're designing, understanding how different things will come together, being able to draw, ~um,~ not just in two dimensional space, but in three dimensional space, right?

Kind of read these objects on the page. ~ ~helped me get to a conclusion that much faster and really wrap my head around certain novel concepts.

Sort of like how taking a note can sometimes help you

take something out of your mind and then you're able to expand your thinking a bit more because you've effectively downloaded that headspace onto the page. I found drawing has done that for something that is a little too abstract to be able to write about.~ Uh, ~so, ~uh,~ Yeah, drawing has been an invaluable tool in everything that I've been doing here.

Yeah, that's beautiful. It's like you're actively thinking while drawing and I, I think most people who aren't familiar with architects are like, or just ~like~ people who, Draw probably won't [00:27:00] see that right away because I think it's a little different than drunk because it has to make sense when you draw it as an architect in a way ~like ~and that's what I always appreciated about like technical drafting when I first ~like~ took classes in high school because whatever you're representing is actually true in that sense ~like~ you're trying to really make it work versus ~like ~drawing things that just for~ like~ That don't have to work in real life.

So I like that too. And I feel the same way about conversation too. Like some friends I have a really~ Like some friends I have a really like, like, ~ it's like therapeutic talking to them because I'm actively like thinking through things as I'm talking to them, which is what it sounds like when you're drawing things out as well.

Yeah. there's absolutely, there's a dialogue that's happening there. Right. And one of, one of the things that, so ~here's,~ here's the push pull between. Things like being curious versus being, being neurotic. I found drawing to be sometimes a paralyzing task because every mark on the page is a commitment, right?

~And now all of a sudden, ~and [00:28:00] actually architecture school almost worsened that because we would really emphasize how that is a commitment that that line has an impact. You're making a decision and we're going from an infinite trade space, infinite potential. And with each line, we're collapsing that further and further.

and when we reach a certain juncture, right? I'm sure everybody here has experienced this where you're working on design and there are 1, 2, 3, maybe more paths that the design can take. But you've already made so many decisions leading up to that point. It's ~kind of ~difficult to map all of those different potentials out.

that can be ~kind of~ a paralyzing place to be. And so one of the simple rules that I like to have, ~um,~ is in just ~kind of~ overcoming that, being able to sketch more quickly, right? ~Like,~ yes, you are making a decision, but you'll just make more of them. ~Um,~ and to find ways of taking the weight of all the previous decisions that led to that fork in the road.

~kind of~ put all [00:29:00] that weight away for a minute and to examine just this fork in the road and to do so quickly by making those decisions instead of lingering on any one of them. I don't know if that was clear. It was, it was clear in my head initially,

I think people can relate because ~like,~ that's ~like~ iterating on an idea, right?

~Like~ you have to put something out there so you can respond to it. And ~like,~ yes, you can do this, this, or that, and they all will affect the design or the, what the. question you're trying to answer, but you have to do something for you to get to the next step. And I find that ~like,~ architecture is hard, or ~like,~ sometimes it was ~like,~ the paralyzing feeling for me, because it's~ like,~ how do I know what to do?

And it's really ~like,~ just do something, right? ~Um,~ I'm curious what it's like as like a CEO when there are many things riding on it. I mean, I guess architecture has the same weight, right? ~Like~ when you are drawing something or ~like~ drawings, ~like ~there's a budget and buildings involved, ~like~ there's a lot of factors.

Put a lot of stress and pressure on your decisions. I [00:30:00] imagine the same happens as a CEO and as a startup, you have to make them even faster without maybe as much ~like~ a precedent to go off of. So how do you make decisions in that context or like,~ like, ~what's your process?

Yeah. ~The funny thing is the reason I made the pivot to engine, or I shouldn't say the reason I made the,~ something that I found that I really enjoyed about engineering.

Um,~ Um, Uh,~ was that there was so much less uncertainty. I can look at the numbers, right? I model things out. And so long as I know the thing that we're optimizing for, I can say with greater certainty, well, this is the decision that we need to make based off of the, this analysis. If there's anything wrong with the assumptions that I made, we can tweak those assumptions.

Right. It's much more clear headed. ~Um,~ and I found comfort in that. And then moving into business development, I'm kind of back into the non clear area, right? It's very nebulous. ~Um, ~that being said, so this is where~ I mean,~

I'm going to sound like a broken record here, but I just have a fantastic network ~of ~of peers and mentors. ~Um,~ we have some really good advisors. So the homeostasis team, the people who are on the core team, [00:31:00] very technical, right? Engineers and scientists almost exclusively. ~Um,~ and it's because what we're building is very technical.

We need to be experts in what we're making here and finding ways of deploying the technology in as cheap and efficient of a matter as possible. A lot of the we have technical advisors because it takes a village to make this thing, but also many business. Development advisors, people who are used to, ~um, you know,~ the operations side of things.

How do you make sure that this team of really talented people are operating effectively, ~um,~ customer relations? How do you develop these relationships, these B to B relationships over time between two companies, right?~ Um,~ how do you identify the right stakeholders and really speak to their needs? ~Um, ~Reaching out to investors pitching.

~Um,~ these are all different skill sets. The negotiation that comes with all these relationships, right? That happened ~kind of~ there is the point of negotiation, but then there's everything peripheral to it that contributes to that point of negotiation as [00:32:00] well. I mean, navigating all that, ~um,~ is absolutely a difficult domain.

And this is where once again, but I think the neuroticism actually helps so long as I have this, ~uh,~ wonderful supportive advisors, because now I could. See ahead and see as we're approaching something like, okay, this is, this is actually going to be a problem. ~Um,~ I need to come up with a solution and ask the right people or help with that solution, say two days in advance.

So then when it gets to the point where the thing needs to occur, we're prepared.~ Um, ~so ~ ~it is nebulous. But in some ways ~there's,~ there's beauty in the ~kind of ~learning as you go along. I think something that I'm learning as I'm getting older is, ~I think, I think there are, ~there are different flavors of discomfort in life and,~ uh, ~largely what we're good at, what people see us as ~kind of~ being capable of doing is at least in part informed by what version of discomfort we're okay with.

Right. ~I, I find,~ I actually, I, I find the task [00:33:00] of designing, ~um, ~as a service, very stressful. ~Uh, ~and there was a, there was a point where I was working at Blue Origin where I had a conversation, there were two space architects, the senior space architect, Jeffrey Montes, and myself, ~and there, there was, there was a point where, um, ~well,~ there, there are, ~there's actually three.

~Uh,~ there is, ~uh,~ Brent Sherwood who. His role was way larger than space architecture, but the reason Jeffrey Montes and I were there was because of Brent Sherwood. ~Um, he's, he's kind of, uh, um, he, he, ~he really spearheaded the, the field of space architecture. ~Um, what, what, sorry, that, that, ~that was like a tangent on a tangent.

~Where, where was I going with that? Um. ~

~Discomfort levels. ~

~Yeah, yeah.~ So there, there was a, there was a particular sprint that, ~uh, that~ we were performing on, ~on~ this program that Jeffrey and I were working on. And. Found the whole journey really, really stressful, ~um,~ pushing 70 80 hour weeks back to back,~ um, ~followed by a trip that was a week long.

And then I came back and, remember having a conversation,~ kind of~ a debrief ~with~ with Jeffrey, ~um,~ and saying, you know, from here forward, the way that I think I can be most effective. And sane is if you lay out the vision and I support like I just [00:34:00] there's something about navigating the uncertainty of design for others like I can do it for myself all day.

Right. I know what my taste is. I know what I find satisfying, but to try to anticipate. What on average people will appreciate more so is just too much for me. And so if instead you lay a vision and then I find a way of facilitating that, and I can contribute to that vision with my own vision, right? It's like filling in the details in a way that makes things work like that.

I could do all day long. And so stepping away from that discomfort has been, I think, a major benefit. And for some reason, the uncertainty associated with business development, despite all of the implications of it is something that I'm just way more comfortable with navigating.

do you know why that is?

I think no is a little bit too strong of a term. My best guess is that it has to do with,~ um, ~the more that I've done this, the more I find that I really genuinely enjoy interacting with people and can be quite good ~at~ at just connecting with people. ~Um,~ I've found [00:35:00] that I really enjoy being on a stage, ~um,~ and, ~uh,~ presenting.

But the way that I do that is not getting super prepared and like doing a presentation. I think you and I talked about this before. Actually, I like to make it conversational, right? I get it. It's difficult to make a presentation when you're on a stage conversational. But what I do in order to initiate that is I start with hi.

And I smile and I look at the crowd and there are, I kind of say it in a goofy manner so that there are a few smirks in the crowd. And then all of a sudden there's this engagement as opposed to this very serious, ~like,~ yes, I'm going to speak about this thing. And everyone's just looking at you in this stern manner.

Like I find that to be a very cold way of communicating. So anyway, I like interacting with people. ~Um,~ and I think business development is so much rooted in that, right? ~Um,~ the negotiations that contain the uncertainty. Is an embodiment of my interaction with my counterparts and my navigation of that in uncertainty is informed by my relationship with allies, [00:36:00] maybe allies is a little bit because that that implies that my counterpart is not an ally or ~people ~people who support right, ~um,~ help us look through the fog of war, as it were.

And so I think that I just know where I stand on all of that. Whereas with design. I don't know, there's just an insecurity, ~like,~ I know what I like, but I don't know if you will like what I like. ~Um,~ and because I'm a designer and I'm an artist, I need to really value what you like. But it's forever a guessing game.

Yeah, ~yeah, yeah. No, ~thank you for answering that. And I, I asked because ~I also, like,~ when I was in architecture, at the end of the day, I didn't care what the design was because there's always,~ like,~ a back and forth and changes. So I was like, I just want to know what we're going to do. And then, like you said, ~like~ support it.

I feel like that ~I can,~ I can very much help people achieve their vision. But then I always thought because for myself, I just ~like,~ didn't want to the pressure or like to put myself out there in a way and~ like, ~create my own vision in the architecture world for this, so to speak, like you said, like other personal [00:37:00] projects.

So it's a little different. But another thing I'm hearing is~ like,~ you keep mentioning , ~like,~ your support circle of people that you have. So it definitely does seem that like, interacting with people and building these relationships is definitely something that like, fills your cup.

Yeah, it does.

~Which is,~ which is weird because my way of recharging is really being alone. I love hermiting. I can be in a book, alone in my apartment or in a park, wherever, all day.~ Like that's,~ I can engage with zero people and be so happy. ~Um, ~but there is something about the active work of being with other people and engaging with them that is also very fulfilling.

I used to call myself an introvert. I don't know where I am actually at this point.~ Uh, I find,~ I find both states to be.

enjoyable.

Yeah, it's probably also like when you're in the right fit to being around people in the wrong context, it's probably not going to be the same feeling. So [00:38:00] I like to think that when people find career paths or places where they're aligned, ~Like,~ with who they are and what they get to do, that ~like, ~it could be the same situation or like a similar situation, but it just feels much different once it's aligned.

~That, ~that is absolutely true. ~Um, ~especially when you're interact,~ like, ~especially when it's a one on one, one on two, right? ~When, when you're,~ when it's a tighter group of people, I find that there is greater sensitivity to how that person, where that person is coming from. ~Um,~ where you're coming from and whether or not those two things, ~uh, uh,~ really work together.

~Um, ~however, one of the things that I've really appreciated about this journey of being a founder, has been overcoming some of the areas of discomfort in being, when being in rooms that I don't feel like I belong in, right? And the whole thing about being comfortable on a stage was definitely not the case before all this wasn't comfortable [00:39:00] in a conference room.

~Um, there, there were,~ there were all these modes of engaging with people in a professional manner that I just felt like a fish out of water. And this whole startup journey required me to. Just lean into it, do the thing. and I found through enough iteration, ~um,~ that. a smile and a positive attitude as cheesy as that sounds goes so far, ~right?~

~It, like I'm, I'm able to, ~I'm now confident that I can engage with such a wide array of rooms that I, there is a level of confidence ~that~ that brings that I really appreciate. If there's nothing else that I take away from this journey, it's that I think I can interact with most groups at this point. I don't know how much I'll enjoy all of them, ~um,~ but I, I know that I'll be able to make that interaction and, ~uh,~ walk away with something good, ~which is,~ which is fantastic.

That's such a, that's such a great place to be.~ Um, ~again, blessed to have this journey.

Yeah, that's awesome. [00:40:00] And I appreciate you sharing that, like some discomfort, you know, you. Do you want to deal with and some of you don't ~like,~ especially in the context of work like it works better in some ways, but then also sometimes you want to lean into the discomfort to grow.

And that's probably the only way you do it. can grow is through the discomfort, because if you're comfortable, you're not going to grow. That's something I also have been trying to embrace in like the past few years is ~like,~ you don't probably want everything to be easy and the challenges are there and you're, they're always going to be there and you ~kind of ~want to find them and go through them.

Yeah, that's such a, ~that's such a~ hard thing, ~I think I, ~I think ~my, ~I err on the side of, being stubborn, ~maybe, maybe, ~maybe that's a fourth word to throw in there is, ~uh, I'm, I'm, ~I'm stubborn. ~Um, my, my,~ I mentioned at the top of this that I went to Rhode Island School of Design, ~I found that, was,~ was really hard.

~Um,~ and anybody that saw me there knows that, ~like it was, uh, I, I was,~ I was really fighting my way through all of that. ~there is, uh, I,~ I didn't feel like I was as good as a lot of my peers. ~Um,~ I felt ~like ~I was catching up all the [00:41:00] time. I,~ I, I,~ I was often very behind on things.~ Um, ~and rather than taking that as a cue that perhaps this isn't for me.

I saw it as a challenge to complete. and I did, which is great. And then I worked in architecture for another few years and then I decided to move on to something else. And so on the one hand, I think~ I think it's Like, I,~ the fact that I fought through all of that has definitely given me something, right? If nothing else, ~the,~ the ability to draw and I think the level of curiosity that I have, ~um, is,~ is driven by my experience.

~Uh,~ I'm naturally curious, but I think that that fed that curiosity more, ~um,~ the need to be curious almost, right?~ From a,~ from a want to a need. and so I'm grateful for those things that kind of taught me how to look at,~ look at~ the world. Um, but it was also time that I spent being really unhappy when I may have been able to build up skills.

You know, feel that I'm naturally good at while simultaneously being a little bit of a happier [00:42:00] person, right? And I think that that's something that we often don't factor in when we consider career. Maybe some people do. I don't know. I don't necessarily see architects doing that all the time. ~Um,~ and one of the beautiful things about out of architecture is it begins to embrace that.

What are the things that can be fulfilling to us in our lives? ~Um,~ and that's a really important question, right? I think, ~uh,~ something that I've heard, ~uh,~ people put forward, this is definitely not a unique idea ~from,~ from me,~ um,~ is rather than talking about a work life balance, having work life integration, right?

Making sure that the thing that you're doing is naturally fulfilling. ~Um,~ yes, you need to take breaks from it. You shouldn't let it be all consuming. ~Um,~ so there is a balance still there, but at the same time, not thinking about it as, okay, I clock in and clock out, and then I have the rest of my life.~ Um,~

~yeah, ~I forgot where we started with all that, but, ~um, it, oh, right, the ~leaning into challenges. ~Um, yeah,~ knowing when to walk away is,~ is, uh, I think ~a very difficult question to answer.

Something that I've heard another guest say is that ~like,~ [00:43:00] but also when it's time, ~like~ all those reasons you have for like reasons, excuses, like things that will stop you that you'll tell yourself, they ~kind of ~just fall away when it's time.

~Like you, you,~ all the things that might dissuade you aren't as strong anymore. And you just know that this is the choice you want to make. Hopefully. I don't know if that everyone's like that, but I think when it's strong enough, it'll be clear.

Yeah,~ I think, um,~

~gosh, this could be a whole. Episode in and of itself, I'd be,~ I'd be really interested to hear people expand on this line of thinking a bit more, especially given what out of architecture is like, how did people know how do you measure when it's time to go? Like, a lot of my pivot points. ~Um, ~were not me walking away from something, but instead me walking towards a new thing with the comfort that the thing that I'm quote unquote walking away from is something that I can come back to.

So it ~kind of~ felt like a two way door. It was a little bit non committal. That conversation I had with Jeffrey, Felt like a one way door. Like I was fine. I was uttering something into the world that I dreaded uttering since the time I [00:44:00] started doing architecture at RISD. ~Like I didn't,~ I refuse to admit that I am not a designer, right?

~I couldn't,~ I couldn't say that. ~Um, and then,~ and then I did, ~um, and it, you know,~ it's actually a two way door cause you could say whatever you want in some ways and, and continue to do things. But,~ I mean, uh, You know,~ there was a gravity of that moment. ~Um,~ and making that decision, ~I don't, ~I don't know what I would say where the fact ~like, I mean, that ~that was just being strained to the point of not really having.

Yeah, I don't know how to finish that thought. That's a difficult question to really dive into.

Were you saying that your decision to leave architecture was the one way door? Was that what you were saying?

No, no, the conversation with Jeffrey ~ um, when I, so when I,~ when I left architecture, I felt like that was a two way door.

~If I, ~if I failed at mechanical engineering, if I failed at this shot towards aerospace, ~um,~ I had a, good enough network that I can always. ~You know,~ find my way back. I might be, you know, a year or two behind, but that's fine. ~Um, the,~ the thing that was difficult was the conversation that I had with the other space architect at blue when I said, you know what, ~I, ~you need to lay out the vision and I'm just doing support.

~Like, I, um, yeah, I, I am not.~

~I,~ I [00:45:00] am not like a head designer in that way. ~I cannot,~ I cannot insist on a vision with that degree of confidence. ~Um, ~and that How did

he respond?

~He was, ~he was extremely supportive. ~Um ~He knew that~ I, that that was, I mean,~ it was a difficult sprint for him as well, but I think he saw the degree of stress ~that, uh,~ that it put me through.

~Um, and, um,~

~yeah, uh, he was,~ he was extremely supportive again. ~Like, I, ~I hope that most people have encountered this similar thing where if you are genuine and open, then most people in the world, they're going to are actually really, really good. ~Um, I've run into, I,~

~I, ~I have trouble thinking about people ~who,~ who act out of malice in any way. ~Um, so. ~

And then ~I,~ it also sounds like you have to be honest with yourself as well. ~Like~ I'm thinking to my own experiences where ~like,~ I just did not feel like I fit right. And I was, it was causing me ~like~ being ~like~ stressed, ~just like,~ just not fitting in where I was would cause me stress.

And I was like, well, if I'm doing the best I can, I'm really giving it like an honest effort. And if it just doesn't fit, then~ like,~ Let's [00:46:00] take control of this and, ~like,~ do something about it, which sounds like the conversation you had. And I guess, ~like,~ as encouragement to anyone who might feel that way, ~like,~ that's the best you can do sometimes, right?

There's nothing wrong with that.

Yeah, I think there's nothing wrong with that. I think it's good to be honest with yourself.~ Uh, ~I think it's good to be stubborn as well, to push past your limits at times.

But I think if it goes from maybe one difference is ~like~ the whole thing with public speaking and engaging with a room where I feel like a fish out of water, a bunch of people with much higher net worths than mine, wearing really good clothes and me trying to network with them, that kind of stuff.~ Like~

that didn't feel like me beating my head against the wall, ~right? Um, ~that felt like fear that I would face. The more that I did it, the more that fear would ~kind of~ fade to the point where it was actually something that I found [00:47:00] exhilarating. My experience with design was beating my head against the wall.

~Um,~ I came in with an ego. I got shot down. I tried to get better at things. I would establish a name for myself. And I, I think all things told, I'm like, I'm decent. I'm definitely not a, a, a stellar, ~um,~ designer, but I, I'm, I'm decent and I, I think I'm good with. my place. ~Um,~

but it never, ~it never~ had that type of engagement where I felt ~like~ there was a moment of fear. I overcame it. And then that fear became a little bit less than I can get better. Instead, it was every time at that ~was like ~acid in the veins. It just ~kind of ~sucked. ~Right? Um, ~ ~I was also in it for like,~ that was my career, ~right?~

~I would,~ I went to school for that. And then I worked in that. So I just figured that that's kind of what life was too, right? So in some ways, it's also knowing that there is more than that being able to peel out of it and discovering that there is something else for you is, is a [00:48:00] major thing. ~Um,~ and actually ~not,~ not to get too soap boxy here, but I think one of the things that enabled me to find that.

~Right. I mean,~ being curious and all that is always fantastic. Yes. But if I had to look at the things that I have in my personal life, in my professional life, navigating stress and ~like~ distill it to one thing that enabled me to feel more stable and happier. It would be shifting from,

~I don't know if it's even important where we're shifting from, shifting to a service mindset. So I was going to start with shifting from like~ a self centered mindset, but that sounds judgmental. I just mean that as~ like,~ I find I have a lot of ambition. ~Um,~ and oftentimes I find how I am not good enough and that both feeds the ambition and makes the ambition that much more urgent because.

I guess those are two sides of the same coin. But ~in, in, in that, um,~ I've achieved things many times and will continue to find that I'm not good enough. ~Um,~ and I think that that just feeds into the insecurity a little bit more versus a service [00:49:00] mindset. So again, that shift that I had that in that conversation with Jeffrey saying, you lay out the vision and I will do things to fulfill that.

Now all of a sudden I knew I had a compass. My measure of success is the satisfaction of the people that I'm servicing. And I find a similar thing in running this startup. My measure of success is the satisfaction of our customers, ~right? Um, ~it can be extremely clarifying to just say, I'm here to service.

~Um, ~now, ~you know, ~obviously don't take that to a toxic place. ~Right,~ that can certainly go too far, but I think when we're talking about this kind of wrestling with what is it that I'm supposed to be doing here. How do I cut through this existence of really wrestling with the medium that I'm working on and all that.

I think ~it can that that~ that space can be so clouded and difficult to navigate that if you just find a person, an entity, usually a person, ~um, to,~ to service, ~um,~ and make their life easier, make their costs go down, [00:50:00] whatever it might be, something more delightful for them, ~um,~ and find a way of expanding that capability.

~Um,~ then, ~uh, it, it's,~ it's both empowering and satisfying at the same time. And all of a sudden those holes that, ~that,~ I won't say you, I'll just speak for myself. The holes that I saw in myself started to, I won't say that they filled up, but they didn't matter anymore, right?~ Um, ~because there is a purpose of the things that I'm doing here, and the purpose is that I'm bringing satisfaction to other people's lives.

That was very soapbox y, ~but ~

~I'm okay with ~

~all of that. ~

Yeah, I loved it. ~Um,~ because it also sounds like there's some soul searching in that and ~like,~ understanding who you are and like, what brings you joy and where you're best at. So it sounds like a great synergy to me. I don't like saying synergy either, but ~like,~ it's a really nice, ~like,~ point that it all comes together at.

Yeah,

that's a nice corporate term. I

know, gotta avoid using those. Thank you so much for your time and sharing. Usually I'll ask a question like words to yourself or ~like, uh,~ Advice to your younger self, but [00:51:00] I feel ~like, you know,~ the last few minutes of everything you were saying were like really nice, ~like ~talking about the fear and, ~um, ~just ~like~ all the things and how it relates to ~like~ the personal journey that I'm hearing.

So that's great. If there's anything else, ~like,~ please, ~um,~ share anything else that you, you. Want to include in this, but I think that was like a beautiful story altogether.

Yeah. Thank you. ~Um,~

~uh, this is,~ this is, ~yeah, uh, to,~ to myself, but also to others who, feel a discomfort with the current status, the current state. Everything, is temporary. The good and the bad. ~Um,~ so cherish the good, really focus on it because that will go away,~ um,~ and take comfort in knowing that the bad is also going to move on.

~Um, ~and,~ uh, ~the power that we have is really in where we direct our attention and focus, and that can make the difference between life being good and life being bad. ~So. ~

Well, thank you so much for sharing all of that.

~Yeah, yeah,~ yeah,~ thank you for, uh, ~thank you for having me. ~This was,~ this was really great. It went in so many directions that I didn't necessarily expect.

~Um,~ I really enjoyed this [00:52:00] conversation.

~Great. Let me hit stop recording./ ~

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