Ep 4: Danny Rupp
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[00:00:00] generally like you're not just You Figuring things out the first time right away.

Like, you know, walk through it. Everything should make sense. ~You know, ~that would be a great ideal if everything made sense, but ~sort of, you know, ~let's figure it out together. Let's,~ uh,~ work the problem and figure out the solution. So,

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welcome to Tangents by Out of Architecture.

Out of Architecture is a career resource network helping designers apply their incredible talents in untraditional ways. We're highlighting some of our favorite stories from the amazing people we've met along the way. We will hear how they created a unique career path for themselves from the wide variety of skills and talents they developed in and out of architecture. ~Recording.~

Our guest today is Danny rub. Web development team lead at C ACI. I hope you enjoy listening to my conversation with Danny. Where we talk about all the ways architecture and web development can. Share interesting insights with each other.

~Okay, yes. Um, okay. Uh, ~thank you so much for,~ um,~ joining us [00:01:00] on Tangents, Danny, ~Uh, ~how would you describe yourself in three words?

Sure. ~Um, ~I've had some time to think about it, so I'm gonna go with,~ uh,~ extroverted, empathic, and curious.

Those are great words, and I'm excited to see how they come out.

And what is your background in architecture?

So I got a bachelor's degree here in Maryland in architecture from the University of Maryland, and that's a four year program. And then you have to sort of work X number of years. I think it was eight years or a certain number of hours before you can. Attempt to get licensed in Maryland, or you could do two more years for a master's degree.

So I graduated with a bachelor's degree. I decided to go straight into work at that point. I thought about maybe I'll go back and get a master's later. ~Um, ~ But then I worked for a few years at a small architecture from here in Maryland. That was,~ uh,~ 2005 through 2009. So, right during the very fun time to be in the architecture industry.

so the mortgage crisis, ~uh. ~The whole crash happened. I was lucky enough to keep going until [00:02:00] 2009, but then I did get laid off very late in that year. It made sense. We just, we had projects that just completely fell out from under us after several months of working on them. But I got really, really good, solid sort of building design and construction experience there.

I think during that 4. 5 years, I essentially finished the IDP requirements. I'm sure they've changed by now, but you needed. ~Uh, ~ I think it was like 400 hours of schematic 400 hours of design development and a certain amount of construction drawings I think I left that job with over a thousand hours of schematic design logged.

~Um, ~but I pretty much hit everything else. I was unemployed for a very rough seven months there. ~Um, ~it was a very tough time. And then,~ uh,~ in mid 2010, I landed what I think was the perfect role for me then. It was at the time described as a virtual company, which now in 2024 is a very funny concept. ~Uh, ~but it was work from home.

Like, and everybody in the company, it was another small company, not really an architecture firm, [00:03:00] but,~ uh,~ they do architectural related federal contracting. so I got hired there and part of what they liked when they hired me, I believe, was I had experience with HTML and website design, mostly from when I was in high school, like, I would just tinker with websites and I learned Photoshop and how to sort of edit HTML Do styling, nothing good came from any of that in high school, but it was good experience.

So, ~uh, ~that small company had a suite of sort of federal web tools that they knew needed to be updated. So they liked that. I could come on as an architect or an architectural designer and work on that. But if the time. ~you know, ~freed up, I could sort of transition into this web development kind of role.

And they asked me as they interviewed me, like, would you be interested in that? I'm like, Oh, yeah, sure. ~Um, ~so I started there, I think within a year or so, I had a sort of gap in my time. So they handed off some old tools. And I really learned over the next five to 10 years there, I learned web [00:04:00] development on the job.

It was a great chance for me,~ um,~ and sort of towards the end of my time at that company up to 2020. I really had transitioned to mostly being a full stack web developer there. But every once in a while, somebody would send me some CAD drawings or some architectural work and I'd work on it. So I have it listed as like a dual role.

I don't really know what to call it, but I essentially, in any given week, I could bounce back and forth between CAD, a little bit of site analysis, ~you know, ~meeting with clients to figure out the needs for their buildings, and then also doing web development there. ~Um, ~it was a really niche role for me because the software that I was developing for websites was Related to building construction.

It was,~ uh,~ it's like office planning tools, basically. so I found it was a really, really good benefit. I found for me, having the architectural mindset of, if we put an X number of employees into an office and the software had, ~you know, ~if I miscalculated something, if it said, 30 conference rooms for those people, I would.

Look at it and realize that's wrong. Like that needs to be edited and fix that. [00:05:00] So ~it was a really, uh,~ I had a recruiter that I talked to say, wow, that seems like the perfect role for you. And it was at the time. but ~sort of~ towards the end of 2020, I really needed to make the jump and realized I wanted to do full time web development.

And really essentially make the jump out of the architecture industry. And it was tough to come to the realization of that. But, I met with some really good tech it recruiters. I literally sat down with one and he looked at my resume and shook his head and just started crossing things out on it.

And I was like, Oh, this feels like a architectural critique. I'm used to this scenario. It's like, I'm comfortable with that, but I completely reworked my resume. ~Um, Um, ~the big thing I learned there was I was trying to have a resume that was a picture of me of like, this is me. So it's like, I do architecture.

I do it. And it was like, no, if you're applying for a web design job, just give them a web design resume. Like, you can mention. In person, or you can mention briefly on the resume. Like, I have architectural experience. They'll see that your degrees in architecture, but, ~you know, ~Being able to work on construction drawings for a building doesn't really have an impact [00:06:00] on an job.

~um. ~I ended up making the jump,~ uh,~ into a sort of,~ uh,~ it was called an open source web developer position,~ uh,~ working mostly in Drupal, which is a content management system similar to WordPress,~ uh,~ and I've been in the Drupal space since then for the last four and a half years. ~Uh, ~I love it. I love doing full stack web development,~ um,~ and just in the last two years, I've moved up into more of a leadership position, just sort of naturally it happened, there was a need for the team and there was a role available, so I've kind of gravitated towards if these processes and these sort of the management of this team isn't being done, I'll do it.

Very happy to fill that role.

there are so many interesting parts of that story that I want to just like, dig into. And I'm like, I have like 10 different ideas in my head of questions I can ask. But first, let's just jump into,~ uh,~ what does your, what does your What's your current role and what does that look like?

So my current role is a Drupal development team lead. ~Um, ~I also write it as just web development team lead. So I'm leading as a developer, a [00:07:00] team of, there's four other people. So five of us,~ um,~ and we work on a federal government website,~ um,~ here in the DC area. And we really just roll out new,~ uh,~ features to the website.

Not so much content. There's a whole content team that manages that. But I'm really interacting with the team. ~Um, ~Fed lead and sort of talking about what we need on the website, what can be done, what kind of features. So it's a real sort of mix of management and technology. And then I'm also developing some code here and there still, which is nice.

Yeah, that's awesome. ~Um, I, I love how you kind of like just, you know, There's a, there's a need.~ There's a role that ~you~ is in front of you, but then you kind of fill it in with all the different things that you're able to offer. So my question is ~kind of like, how, like, what,~ what did you see in those roles?

~Or like, what did it kind of like speak to in you? Like, and because I think like, when you see a role online that you're applying to, it's very dry, right? And like you said, like, you are trying to fit into that role. That mold in a way as well to kind of like get through the interview process. But how did you and your employers and these job opportunities ultimately like connect to each other?~

~Like what,~ like what do you think made you stand out and vice versa, like the job to you and you to the job?

Yeah, that's a great question. At each stage of my career, as I would call them, stages, that's meant a different thing. When I was at that first architecture firm,~ um,~ what I really noticed was I'd started there, it was a very small company, and,~ uh,~ initially when I started, it [00:08:00] was like, oh, ~you know, ~who, how many licenses of AutoCAD do we have?

And I was told, go look in the drawer in the back of the office, And see what we have. And so it was literally just this rollout file drawer with just all the software boxes piled in there. And so I was like, okay, someone needs to properly manage this. Like we need to know how many licenses we have a Photoshop, how many licenses of AutoCAD.

So I sort of talk to the people in charge and they were like, yeah, sure. Do it. And so I'd set up like an Excel spreadsheet and logged all of the licenses. And then if we needed a new one, I added it in. ~Um, you know, ~there's many better ways to do that, but it was, ~you know, ~do what I can to sort of solve that problem.

and that's been sort of carried through in my career of like, ~if I see that something,~ there's a process that can be added or,~ uh, you know, ~something that can be done unless I'm swamped and working on other things. But like, if I have a few moments here or there and I can solve it within that role, like I will try to improve on those processes.

So I think that's carried through,~ uh,~ to, ~you know, ~the second big job I had of ~You know, ~when the CAD work sort of slowed down, do you want to work on these web tools? It's like, yeah, please. Like I'm been very happy [00:09:00] jumping around the different things. ~Um, ~I don't like it so much when I'm jumping to like five different things in one day.

Like it is nice to have that focus time to sit down. it's really carried through. And then with the moving up in my current role, ~you know, ~I started and there was a need for a team lead,~ um,~ for various reasons. There wasn't one on the team currently. So I just sort of. Started doing my usual thing where I'm like, Hey, I want to improve these processes.

I want to help these people solve these things. And thankfully it was a sort of natural progression up into the lead role there.

Yeah, that is such a good answer. I resonate very deeply with that. ~Um, ~to me, like, I see this floating around Instagram and things like that. ~ But it's like it people who are successful ~and I think this is usually like thought of in an athletic way, they're willing to do the things that other people aren't in terms of ~consistency,~ consistency, or even like those little things that other people don't care about.

But I think that's such a perfect And I think that's the best way to think about architects because we love problem solving and details, which I think in all the things that you described is something that you care about, and then [00:10:00] found a solution for and provided. Like that relates very much to how I've treated my career as well.

Like solve problems for your bosses before they even show up, provide the solution for people before they ask for it, or even like, don't wait for someone to ask you to do something. Like if you notice it and care about it and then take it upon yourself to do something about it. So it's really nice to hear that that's like, what kind of carried you from one opportunity to another.

Yeah. And I would put a big caveat on that of,~ uh,~ I think some people can ~sort of ~Spin that off into like that's their whole goal is to anticipate those things do those things It's always been an extra ~sort of~ thing of~ like, uh, ~it's nice to have a defined role but like if your whole role is you're just the janitor cleaning up all these other things and no and All of the people around you aren't relying on or they're relying on you to clean up that mess Then that's not fun.

Like it's it's been pretty nice for me overall of Sort of filling that in, but I wouldn't want to encourage someone. Oh, like do all these things anticipate those needs and it's like very quickly. You could [00:11:00] get into that sort of black hole of you're now do don't do way more than you're being required to do unless it makes sense.

Like, just want to. ~sort of ~pump the brakes on that of it could very quickly lead to you're carrying the load of seven people and it's could not be very not fun unless you're being compensated for seven people then I mean and you want to do it then that sounds great.

That is also true and definitely a slippery slope in architecture where that easily happens without you even taking up more things it would just land on your plate I feel like or at least that's what it sounds like with my friends a lot of times.

Yeah, yeah, I'd say that's very common in the architecture industry of,~ uh,~ people passing things off or not wanting to handle certain things and then it gets juggled around and eventually somebody's got to do it. ~So,~

yeah. ~Do you have a personal like or like,~ what is your take on that ~because I feel like it's a hard like line, you want to stand up for yourself but then once you like, don't then once your managers don't see you like and I'm speaking of this and mostly an architectural sense.~

~If you are being hard to work with or like not happily taking on these extra tasks, then they'll probably assign these projects to someone else that is happily eager waiting to take on the extra work. So it's like,~ how do you stand up for yourself, but also like not protect yourself? Well,

I think that's one of the hardest things to do [00:12:00] professionally.

~Um, ~I've been, I'm very privileged in that sense of if I ~sort of ~try to, for lack of a better word, throw my weight around, like, ~you know, ~it's easier for me to do that. ~Um, ~but I would say, especially as a junior. In the architecture industry, like, I tried to push for some of these improvements. I think one of my early performance reviews was,~ uh,~ I simultaneously got the feedback that I was rocking the boat too much and also not trying to improve things enough, and I don't think there was much connected to those are the same thing.

Like, these are that's the same issue of, like, I'm trying to improve these processes and people are getting mad because of that. ~Um, ~But then I also try to always take a step back of,~ um, you know, ~I had one of my keywords was empathic, so try to not assume that I know the answers to everything. Like, that's been a big one of,~ uh,~ very early in my career, sometimes I would think I know the answer to this, and then someone much more experienced than me would be like, no, you absolutely do not.

So just trying to suggest Ways of improving things but understanding that I may not know all the answers and most other people the that's been a great revelation leaving college going into working as a lot of other people [00:13:00] don't know what they're doing either like people are just~ sort of~ fumbling around so ~like~ throw your suggestion out there but if it's turns out that that's not the best thing to do, then you can roll it back or try a different approach.

But at least you put it out there. ~Um, ~as far as I think your question is geared more to how to balance that, it's tough. Like it, there's definitely times where I've been like, if I speak up about this thing, like, it feels like my job might be at risk and that doesn't feel good. And it's not, I wouldn't blame someone for not taking that step.

~Um, what was your feelings when you left architecture and like, Because actually~ when you were describing your job,~ um,~ I forgot the name of the place, but 2010 to 2020, it sounded like a little also transitioned away from architecture a little bit in that you had a lot of freedom in what you were doing, or it wasn't like strictly architecture in that way.

Like a traditional office. So, at that point. What were your feelings and you're deciding and like, was it hard for you to make that jump?

I wouldn't say it was easy. ~Um, ~I definitely didn't make the decision lightly. ~Um, ~it was back in 2018, 2019. ~Um, ~that [00:14:00] was a rough few years for me, just professionally there.

~Um, ~And I thought about it and it's like, all right, it's been, ~you know, ~I've been in the industry for let's say 10, 11, 12 years. I finished IDP. Like I was ready to take the AREs. I just never felt like I had the time or money. ~Um, ~I'm not a big fan of like, ~you know, ~I'm a 30 year old, let's sit down and study for this exam.

Like that just never quite clicked with me of, I never really,~ uh,~ got there. And by that point I could see a career in. IT web development. I talked to my friends who work around the DC area or throughout the world as developers and they'd say, yeah, like you have the experience of what I would expect for a web developer.

You could easily apply for these roles and they'd send me roles or titles that, ~you know, ~I had no idea. Ironically, many of them are software architect roles and it's like, I can't legally call myself an architect in the US, but I could, ~you know, ~get away with being a software architect if I'd switched industries.

~Um, ~But it really came down to I sort of sat down and [00:15:00] looked at what do I enjoy doing like what keeps me up and like I found that,~ uh, you know, ~I wasn't staying up till 2 a. m. doing CAD drawings or working on building plans or anything like that. What would happen is I'd get an idea for something I wanted to do in software and I'd 2 a.

m. for a week straight. Doing it,~ um, you know, ~a little bit sleep deprived, but it was, that's the thing that gets me excited. That's what I'm thinking about. I'm taking notes when I'm not doing something else on how I want to program these things just that I thought of in my spare time. And so I said, I think I can be happy not being a capital a architect.

~Um, ~and ~you know, ~it's nice having that there of, if I ever wanted to go back, I think I could still just open up my record and, ~you know, ~take the AREs again and get licensed at least in Maryland, if I wanted to at this point. I've it's been. For plus years, and I think I'm very happy with this choice, but it does feel like a loss of something like it's just you had this goal.

Like, I thought all through grade school. Like, I liked doing drawings for [00:16:00] houses. I love doing that. but what I always tell myself for people who ask is, you know, I can sit down and draw a building if I want to. It's just. In my spare time, or even if a friend asked me, and I'll have people talk to me about, ~you know, ~Hey, I'm looking at this house.

Can you come check it out with me as not really, I'm not being a building inspector, but just come check it out and tell me what you think. So I think that sort of fulfills a little bit of that role when I have that experience, but,~ uh,~ it's definitely, it can be a big step.

Yeah. I think in the beginning at first I was Worried about it. ~I think~ like, ~um, ~how do I keep my hands in architecture? Because I, ~I, I~ didn't want to let go of it when I made the switch. And I found that it's actually pretty easy to, because you have ~like, I think~ the space and time, and then your job isn't weighing down on you as much, or ~like,~ hopefully it's not that you can explore architecture in all the ways that it makes sense to you and works for you and that you enjoy too.

And that opens up other doors that I didn't have when I was working in an office.

Very much so. ~The, uh, uh, ~for whatever it says about the [00:17:00] industry, there's definitely, a relief of some stress being out of that industry. and I mean, ~you know, ~lots of jobs are stressful, but ~I, ~I felt like I rarely got a moment to stop and breathe.

Sometimes when working on, ~you know, ~building design and construction drawings, it just really kept going. So now that I'm out of it, it's like, okay, I can go, I can still enjoy buildings. ~You know, ~I can still talk about design. this podcast has been a great way that I've ~kind of~ felt like I'm reconnecting with that world a little bit.

~Um, ~and ~you know, ~when I started listening to it, I didn't know what I'd get out of it, but the idea of, ~you know, ~there's all these different backgrounds that all of these people went ~sort of ~through this design, background, and then, ~you know, ~gone on to do all kinds of different jobs. So it's really Fun to hear that, and that's one of the reasons I wanted to be on it.

Yeah,~ uh,~ thank you so much for saying that. ~I,~ I feel like it's very clear what Tangents is about. It's like people who used to be architects in some way, and then aren't anymore. But for some reason,~ like,~ because of that, ~I, like,~ it's hard exactly [00:18:00] to explain it unless you've been in the shoes that there's a lot of feelings involved, and it's a lot of, like, People not really understanding why it's such a big deal like if they're outside of that or like what it feels like so I And at the very end of it, I think I just wanted people to know that they're not alone in these feelings, which I think, for some reason, architecture also feels a little isolating at times, like being stuck in your thoughts about how, ~like,~ or frustrations or just like overburdened and things like that.

is there anything that when you were listening to the episodes or even from your own story that, ~like, ~you just really want people to know,~ like, ~from your own experiences?

~Um, let's see what I can think of for that. Yes is the answer. Uh, having a good roll off answer on that one's trickier. ~

~You know, it doesn't have to be good.~

~I feel like whatever just like is really important to you is always good. ~

Yeah, I think The one of the big things from a lot of the episodes of this podcast and from my own experiences, there are ways to apply what you learn in studio and an architectural practice far outside of the architectural industry.

~Um, you know, ~what I try to when I talk to people who don't know about it, like talking about going through studio and design, what I really learned was how to iterate on an [00:19:00] idea. And,~ uh,~ that, I went to University of Maryland, and especially in 01 through 2005 when I was there, like, ~you know, ~nobody was doing CAD, or very few people were doing CAD, still, by 2005.

I know, I've gone and visited the school now, and it's like all AutoCAD, which is great, ~like, ~that's what is useful for the profession, and that's where it's going, but it was all very still hand drawn, hand built models,~ um,~ and so you ~kind of ~get this ~sort of~ tactile,~ um,~ Design experience with that, which isn't missing with the,~ uh,~ digital things, but it's just,~ uh,~ I guess the best descriptor is like, there's a shared suffering that I'm sure is still there with digital, but it's different when everybody's there, ~you know, ~scratching on paper and doing their final drawings and coloring on marker.

And if you mess up on a final drawing and have to ~like~ cut it out and then tape another piece of paper under it. But really iterating on an idea, refining an idea, that was one of the big things. And then graduating and going into architecture practice. ~Like, uh, you know, ~I might be the standout here, but I don't think I am.

I went into an architectural firm knowing very little of how to actually do [00:20:00] architecture. Like I learned in that first year, I probably learned more about doing actual building design and construction than I could have learned in, ~you know, ~four years of school. You have to just be there, do it and learn it.

~Um, ~But, I've been surprised of the things that I have been able to transfer to the IT world or just to, ~you know, ~managing a team of developers or, any other thing that I'm doing in my life of,~ uh,~ presenting to clients and distilling ideas down into a sort of concise, ~you know, ~quick, not talking for 45 minutes straight about one idea,~ like, you know, ~just get it quick.

~You know, ~don't make it too concise, but presenting the idea succinctly before people lose interest and clearly, and then ~sort of~ looking at the whole, ~like, sort of~ taking a holistic view of something, when you're doing really minute construction details for a building that has implications on how it's actually built and that has implications on the overall design, or if you're doing a full schematic design for a building, if you draw a certain type of window or a certain type of wall.

having an idea of how that's actually going to be [00:21:00] built and how the details would work for that. So there's~ sort of~ this whole that you can get an idea of and that's You know, it's not unique to architecture, but I feel it's one of the big benefits that I've gained out of my experience in education.

And then I apply that now, if I'm working on websites, ~you know, ~if somebody mentions they want to make a change or a tweak to the website, I tend to find that I'm thinking much more. About the whole structure and finding ways of~ like,~ if you add X here, it's going to impact why there and we need to think about that.

And, ~you know, ~that helps me feel like my experience is very valuable. ~Like,~ I'm making these connections and making associations that other people might not be. ~I think. ~

Yeah, absolutely. Sometimes I feel like I'm thinking too many, like, I do that kind of thinking in everything I do. So I'm like, I have a conversation with friends, and ~like, ~I'm like overanalyzing everything and like thinking about things I shouldn't.

But I guess ~it's just like,~ it comes with the area.

When you were saying how you have all these skills, and~ I,~ I 100 percent agree that these are like [00:22:00] really important skills that not everybody has, which is something I realized over time. How do you convey this to ~like,~ if you wanted to switch a job, what advice which would you have for people that to get this across to the other side, that we have skills, ~like, ~because You also mentioned in your conversation that,~ um,~ you are learning on the job as well.

And that's always the case, right? So how do we get the job? And I don't think there's an easy answer for this, but how can people try to get the jobs that where they're learning on the job? And,~ uh,~ on the job and then still showcasing the skills that they're able to do it. I don't know. I feel like there's a lot of hoops to jump through.

Yeah, it's tricky. ~Uh, ~I literally just yesterday saw advice on LinkedIn that was remove your hobbies from your resume. And I feel like if I had not had That html and web design was something that I was interested in in Photoshop on my resume. I may not have gotten that job back in 2010, where they valued that.

So [00:23:00] I think, ~you know, ~previously had juggling on my resume. So that may be not that interesting.~ Like,~ it just used to be a talking point. I always said it was 1 of the more useful things I learned in college was how to juggle. But having, ~you know, ~putting things that you're interested in, one of the big things I've done in the last five, six years is I'll put on my resume of what I'm currently learning, ~like, uh, I, ~one of my words to describe myself was curious, I'm generally have a list of things that I'm trying to learn, ~you know, ~I'm not gonna, ~you know, ~lie and say that I'm successful and always pursuing those, but I always have a sort of running list of things that I'm trying to learn.

So early in web development and transitioning into that, it was different languages that somebody would mention,~ um,~ or different packages that are used or, ~you know, ~even just processes,~ uh, you know, ~back when I first started, I had no idea what agile web development was. And so just, researching that, ~you know, ~it's not going to be the same as using it every day.

That's been one of the most useful learning tools, but ~you know, uh, ~if you're looking at transitioning to it, there's tons of open source projects. ~Uh, ~if you look into it there, there's a huge need in it for people to do [00:24:00] documentation, contributing to projects. And there are situations where if you're fairly new, like you can jump in and ask questions and help.

with these projects. So that's, if you're curious and you're looking for those things and then you find it, like put that on a resume of like, Hey, I'm looking into these different things. I haven't really done a lot of 3d rendering in the last, ~you know, ~10 years, but,~ uh,~ when I'm either listening to a podcast or talking to somebody and they mentioned a different, a new 3d rendering tool that I haven't looked at, or just one that's not even new, ~you know, ~I only had an experience with Revit and SketchUp, but there's so many other.

3D rendering tools out there now. I'll write it down and then I'll Google it and try to look at, look it up, see if I can download it, play with it a little bit. but I mean, that goes back to, that's one of the ways I got into architecture in the first place was just my school had a technical drafting class in high school and they had,~ uh,~ I think it was TurboCAD back then was the version of CAD they got,~ you know, ~nobody at the school really knew how to use it.

So I just fired it up and started tinkering [00:25:00] around with it. And that, ~you know, you know, ~led through to college and then profession after that. So I would say, ~you know, ~if you've got things that you're interested in, even if you're not putting that much effort into it, if you are interested in learning about that, then having that out there, or even just if you get into an interview talking about, Oh, I mentioned these few things, like I've,~ uh,~ Dabbled in sort of dismantling electronics and fixing them here at home.

Like, if a remote or a controller or something is broken, if it's not working, I might as well open it up and see how it works. so I've mentioned that, ~you know, ~I don't want to be a electrical engineer, but it's just something that I'm interested in. And you never know what somebody might see or need at their job that will make you stand out as a better potential candidate.

Yeah, I don't have like firsthand experience because I don't hire people. But I feel like when I'm in an interview and sharing things, I'll talk about projects I've done. ~Like~ sometimes it's even stuff like not my nine to five job. It's like things that I've done, like extracurriculars, but [00:26:00] I'm hoping that they see that there's a passion behind it.

And then like, I can get projects, like accomplish things, get them to an execution. And then ~like,~ I really care. And for me, at least that's something that I resonate with that. I want them to know. And then hopefully the people that hire me, if they appreciate it, then it's a good fit on both sides.

So, ~passions, ~I think ~we're, ~we appreciate sharing passions.

Yeah. And it's good,~ uh, you know, ~demonstrating that you are always learning. I mean, we are all always learning, but~ sort of~ leaning into that of, when I'm in a job interview, if somebody asked me, like, how do you do this thing and I've literally never heard of it, I don't try to dance around it.

I just say, sorry, I've never heard of that, but I'm going to usually I'll say, I'm going to look it up right when I get out of this interview, like, and that's literally what I do is if they mentioned something and, ~you know, ~a lot of those interviews, I wouldn't get the job, but I know what they asked me about.

And then the next time it came up in another interview, I was ready. And ~that's sort of,~ I'm sure there were different,~ uh,~ web development aspects that as I went through interviews over the years, [00:27:00] ~ uh,~ the first one, I didn't know about it. And by, ~you know, ~the 6th or 7th one, I knew what it was, and I'd used it, or at least could talk about it and then get in there, but also the,~ uh,~ idea of learning.

It's, ~you know, ~if I'm interviewing for a job and they've got, ~you know, the, ~the must haves and then the like to haves, ~you know, ~if you're demonstrate that you're willing to learn and explore, then, ~you know, ~that is very valuable.

Do you have people,~ um,~ ask you about like how to get into web development or ~like,~ I'm thinking about this ~or like, I just,~ I'm not happy in my current job. And I am assuming like we come from an architecture point of view, but,~ uh, what,~ where do you usually start with those questions?

~Um, ~I'd go back to where I talked about staying up late to work on things of ~the,~ the biggest,~ uh,~ indicator I'd say for me is if you try it a little bit and then see if you love it or hate it.

Like, ~uh, ~similarly to, I would say getting into doing CAD drawings. Like I imagine there's some people who get into the architecture field and then they just don't love working in CAD and drawing, ~you know, ~all these [00:28:00] multicolored lines day in and day out all the time. Usually in the field, you're going to be going out to sites,~ uh, you know, ~Doing hand drawings doing a bunch of other things.

So you're not going to be doing cad 24 7 all the time but~ uh, you know, ~I wouldn't recommend somebody Get a cad job if they don't like at least are able to stand being in cad So I would say with programming and web development ~um You know, try like~ learn a little bit of code. The ~uh, ~Codecademy is a great website that I've used many times over the last 15 years to if, ~like if~ I hear of a new language or a language I've never used before, I'll go on there and go through a few.

They have tutorials, classes, and guided ~sort of, uh, ~I think they honestly have a program that's, ~you know, ~if you want to be a web developer, take these classes and they have free classes and then pro classes, so if you sign up for it, and I've used that to either brush up on Some programming that I'm a little bit rusty on or learn something entirely new.

What I consider a full stack web developer for 10 ish years. And I still didn't know Python, which is one of the most popular languages ever. So I just went on [00:29:00] there and went through some of the basic Python classes. And it's like, at least now I'm familiar with the syntax, familiar with what it is, but there's a way of thinking for programming that I imagine not everybody would love.

So I wouldn't want to recommend somebody yeah definitely like transition into being a web developer and then they get in and they're looking at arrays and indexes and variables and they're just like what is all this but there are a lot similar to what we talk about with the architecture industry if there's a lot of different jobs to do.

Within the architecture industry, there's a ton of different jobs within web development of you could be more of a front end developer and do templating,~ uh,~ and styling. ~Um, ~you could be a back end developer. You could go like full database management. ~Um, ~You can do QA like that's one of the ways I would say to try to get into the industry is look for,~ um, you know, ~QA positions where you're testing other people's code checking websites for errors and issues.

~Um, ~if you have a passion for accessibility, a lot of architects do the whole. Range of doing 508 [00:30:00] and, ~you know, ~accessibility testing for websites is a whole other world. ~Um, ~there's a lot of parallels with architecture, but it's, ~you know, ~websites instead of buildings.

Yeah, that's really great. Do you have any other resources that you personally like or,~ um, like ~find useful, ~like,~ and I asked this actually in a very broad way like ~it could not,~ it doesn't have to be directly related to finding jobs, even just like.

I think it's helpful for people in this, transition state of their career.

~Uh, you mean specifically for transitioning out of architecture and resources for that or just in general? ~

~In general, like things that like kind of fill your cup. ~

Yeah. For me, especially,~ um,~ When I was looking at transitioning, ~like,~ just talking to my friends, finding out what they do.

I'm in the D. C. area, so the variety of jobs that my friends in the D. C. area have is huge, and so just talking to them about their jobs, what they're interested in, what Kind of transitions they've made in their careers. It's just been fascinating for me seeing like I've had a sort of core group of friends for the last, ~you know, ~30 ish years and seeing just the variety of different jobs that everybody has gone out and done talking to them, ~you know, ~not being afraid to [00:31:00] it.

~You know, ~dig into this sort of detailed career discussion with them if they're interested in it. and I've gotten a lot out of that,~ um,~ for other resources, podcasts,~ um,~ on a wide variety of subjects are great. ~Uh, ~especially if you've got a commute or sort of, I go try to go for a daily walk and that's usually where I listen to podcasts.

And yeah, I think the best resource that I can recommend is talking to your friends who are in similar industries or jobs, or want to be in similar jobs to what you're aiming for, and they'll recommend resources to you also. So like, whenever somebody comes to me, I'll recommend the Codecademy or something else that I've been thinking about recently.

And then when I talk to somebody else, they'll have different resources they want to recommend, I think,~ uh,~ I heard about out of architecture through some one of my architecture teachers,~ uh,~ has ~a sort of being~ an architect newsletter that he sent this out. And so it's really just paying attention, joining newsletters, talking to people.

Yeah, absolutely. I had a really tangled web of how I found [00:32:00] my first job out of architecture, and~ like,~ I couldn't even create it again if I tried. It's ~just like, you~ just keep subscribing to things, and then when opportunities come up, apply.

~Let me see if I can find it. Um,~

~I might have deleted the old one.~

~I'll find it. I can find it. Yeah, ~

~yeah, yeah, for sure. You can just email it to me.~

~I'll have to pull it up. ~

~Yeah,~ but I do appreciate just like newsletters or things that people just like because for no other reason than they like it. Because I think it starts creating this web of things. Interest that ultimately hopefully like reveal and lead you to an opportunity that some is more aligned to you than, ~you know, ~your first job out of school. What is the newsletter that your architecture teacher writes?

Yeah, definitely. ~I found it actually.~ So it's arch careers guide. com. So that was, yeah, that was the newsletter. ~Um, ~but he was one of the,~ uh,~ administrators at university of Maryland when I was there and then set that up.

And then. out of architecture was just on this.

Yeah. It was just one of his,~ uh,~ email newsletters that just mentioned, Hey, this is out of architecture is a resource that he found and put it on there.

Oh, [00:33:00] that's so cool. I will make a plug for OA that there's a Slack group because,~ um,~ I think it's just a nice place where everyone is sharing resources and just like similar sentiments of trying to find something that works for them. ~Um, ~so ~yeah. Yep. Uh, ~there's also an Architechy Slack group that I recommend to people that,~ um,~ you know, similar backgrounds of people.

Yeah, if that's Architechy, I think Jake recommended that to me~ and, um. ~

~Mm hmm.~

~All right, sorry, I was distracted. ~

~Oh, no, no worries. And ~ actually, we went through so much. I feel like there was so much you shared in this,~ um, 40 plus minutes that I was just like, ~ ~ conversation could go anywhere now, like, all the usual questions, I feel like you've answered very well. So we can, um, I don't know if there's anything like you want to go into the technical side of like, what steps you took to apply or, you know, other, you know, Things in your life that interest you.~

~Sometimes there's like, it's, it's to flesh out like the person behind the role. ~

~Yeah, um, I'm not sure. I don't know. Do you have any other questions that came up that you didn't get to? ~

~Oh, ~so in the beginning when you were talking about like how early on you were just like playing around with websites I brought a smile to my face because I've seen this post It's like us being ten year olds like changing colors on websites with HTML codes Like how did we even know how to do this?

And it's like something that you just find and do like ~I~ I have no idea like how I did anything I was like when you mentioned Photoshop. It's like how did I get a copy of Photoshop when I was like 13? But it was like playing around with things and that's something that I still [00:34:00] do today that isn't directly related to any of like my work.

It's just something I appreciate and then dabble in.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I remember,~ um, You know, ~for better or worse, back then being very, very young, and I needed something special on a website, and I opened up somebody else's website and just inspected the code, and I think they used an iframe, and so I was like, oh, I'll just copy this out, and I put an iframe on whatever website I was working on, and ~you know, ~it always tickles my fancy when I'll pull up, ~like,~ any modern websites, and there are still iframes are used.

Lots of places. So it's just something I, ~you know, ~I didn't know what I was doing, but I was just experimenting with it. so that was, ~you know, ~fun, but also very scary just thinking about now ~what I, the,~ what I work on for websites and then what I was doing back then. It's a whole different world, but it was, ~you know, ~the foundational experience.

of having that base of I've done this, like this is a world that, ~you know, ~so much of it is really just [00:35:00] proving to yourself like you can do it. ~Um, ~that's been a big shift for me of,~ you know, ~a long time ago. And especially when I was working in architecture, if I had an idea for a cool website, like, ~you know, ~I'd be like, Oh, that's a cool idea for website.

Now I'm like, I know how I would build that. And I've actually like gone and done it a few times of like, here's a cool tool that you can build that. ~You know, ~does this very specific thing, but it's,~ it's ~very,~ uh,~ fulfilling to ~sort of~ have that idea and then bring it to fruition, even if it's not necessarily posted publicly online, or, if nobody uses it, it's there and you created it and.

That's something that I value because I think in my four and a half years actually with at an architecture firm, very little of what I worked on got built. Like so much of what I was preparing to design and preparing for construction with 2008, 2009, so much of it just didn't get built. of there's an alternate reality there where that didn't happen.

And ~you know, ~I would have been four years of experience with several buildings where I worked very heavily on them and they actually got built and I could go [00:36:00] walk through them, but it just didn't happen. I think there's ~a hand, like~ one or two that I worked on, but nothing that I like did a lot of contributions to from that time.

Yeah. All of that just pretty much,~ um,~ summarizes the A lot of the feelings that I think go into tangents that one, it's so cool that architects can think of something, figure out how to put it together. And I mean, there's not only just buildings, but like with any project or idea, you have to figure out how to share it with people and then ~kind of~ get them on board in some way.

For most of the things you can do it by yourself, but then create it. Like you break down the steps you need to take and you create it. And I think that relates to. ~Or at least I'm trying to like relate it~ how you mentioned not everyone knows what they're doing either. So I think ~I ~early on in my architectural career was always stopped.

Like, I don't know what I'm doing. Like, I don't know enough about buildings or code or like how to draw this. But then,~ um,~ I don't know why ~like~ that was so stressful for me because if we just think like you just have to figure it out. [00:37:00] I think it back then I didn't know how to figure out or I didn't have the resources and that was stressful and then I think I, I tried and then now I'm in a different place.

But I want people to be empowered by that like, don't be stopped by anything because you'll figure out the steps you need to take to get there. where you want or accomplish the project you want and just keep going through those steps.

Yeah, that's a very good point of,~ uh,~ it just reminds me a lot of that first job I had at the firm of, there were, there was at least one guy there who he knew literally everything about how to put a building together like that.

He was a great resource. He'd been doing it for 60 years. and ~you know, ~you could ask him anything and he'd pretty much know how to draw it and Build it and put it together but so many people I worked with there. It's you know, my first year i'd be like I don't know how to do this and they'd say ~like ~let's figure it out ~Like~ let's sit down and figure it out and that's just a great benefit Rather than the sort of like star architect of ~you know Uh~ that old story of ~like~ frank Lloyd wright just drew those Drawings in like two hours and had never planned them before it's like that doesn't really happen [00:38:00] Like I that may have happened with him, but generally like you're not just You Figuring things out the first time right away.

Like, let's, ~you know, ~walk through it. Everything should make sense. ~You know, ~that would be a great ideal if everything made sense, but ~sort of, you know, ~let's figure it out together. Let's,~ uh,~ work the problem and figure out the solution. So,

yeah, pretty much. Sometimes people will ask questions like, it's like back when I was an architecture office and be like, Do you know how to do this or something like that?

Or do you know this? And I'm like, no, but I could look it up for you. No, but I can Google it for you. And that's not even in a sarcastic way. Like you could just Google it. It's like, no, but ~like,~ let's find it out together. Like you were saying. And I think ultimately that's ~kind of ~what life is, which is another thing.

I'm also realizing that like. You don't know anything, you will never know anything, and you just have to keep figuring it out. ~Uh, ~me and my husband joke how hard it is to just be an adult sometimes and just like constantly clean things, figure things out, maintain things, but I guess that's just what life [00:39:00] is.

Yeah, and actually what you said made me realize of ~uh, ~something that's I would hope very standard. It's been standard in all of the IT groups I've worked in so far. there's the concept of doing like an R& D ticket Or a spike ticket. ~Um, ~and so it's, ~you know, ~the one of the big things in it is there's almost always several ways to do something and the, ~you know, ~my architectural side wants to be like, well, what's the best way of doing it?

And there isn't necessarily always the best way. Like, there's pros and cons to all these different ways of doing it. ~Um, ~And so, like, very often, if we have a question come up, and how would we do this, like, we'll just create an R& D task for it, and it's like, let's spend a few hours, let's spend a day really doing the work and figuring out, ~you know, ~what we need to do and how we can do it.

And then usually out of that, it's like, here's these three different ways, ~you know, ~we can see to do it. And I think that, ~you know, ~the architecture industry, I'm sure would. Benefit from making that more of ~like ~a known thing of,~ uh,~ I think it happens quite a bit with let's, ~you know, ~do a design [00:40:00] sprint,~ um, kind of~ that concept, but I think it would be beneficial of thinking more about, let's really ~like~ set aside some initial time to explore and think and do the R and D on this.

~Uh, ~with the idea of, we don't know what we're going to do yet, but we will. Be better off for having put that pre work in.

Yeah, that's part of what I found, ~like,~ in my experiences that there wasn't a lot of innovating on processes like this isn't working well, but we're going to do it the exact same way again on the next projects like that is going to start immediately after this project ends, or ~like,~ can we try to improve this.

Yeah, that's a good idea, but then nothing changes. ~Like~ that was always so frustrating to me. So then yes, like coming to a smaller company now, like also a tech company, I'm very happy that like, we can change things when they don't work. And actually we have to, and we should expect because I'm in a small company, like we should expect that the way things are working now are not the way they're going to work in like a year when things [00:41:00] grow.

So I appreciate that. And it's refreshing and I wish, yes, I also wish architects and architecture firms, like, operated a little more like that.

Definitely. The thing that surprises me still is I'll hear from my friends still in the industry of, ~like,~ their project schedules can be just,~ like,~ absolutely brutal.

And I often think, like, why did that deadline get, like,~ if, ~if you look at a deadline and you can say there's no way we're getting, ~you know, ~DD drawings and CD drawings done for this building by then, where did that deadline come from and what's the disconnect and can you fix it in the future and I know like the,~ you know, the, the ~ideal that I strive for with my team is, ~you know, ~you want to be busy and you want to, ~like,~ set a realistic schedule, you don't want to always be scrambling.

~Uh, ~and what I've found is,~ uh, you know, ~even if you plan out everything correctly and you have enough time for everything, something, somewhere is going to go wrong, or it's going to go in an unexpected way, or something else is going to come up, so it's [00:42:00] like, try to Plan ahead properly for what you can.

And then, ~you know, ~you'll still be scrambling here and there, there will still be fires to put out. there's never really an ideal of we're never swamped. We're never scrambling to do something, but avoiding it where it can be avoided is my goal, like as planning out things for a team of why, ~you know, ~if we have the foresight of we need this.

By this date, let's try to schedule that date as realistically as we can, because if we set it too tight and then you're scrambling and really like rushing to get things done, and then things go wrong, that's when things just cascade out of control and people get super stressed, and I mean, ~you know, ~I was only at an actual architecture firm for four and a half years, but I stayed there overnight more than once.

And it was like, why did this happen in the first place? And ~like,~ what was the scheduling process? And I think often those schedules are set out and they're not [00:43:00] asking the people who they should be asking, like, how much time do we actually need to do this? and so I think that's a big improvement that I would love to see in the industry, even though I'm not in it anymore, just for everybody's sanity.

Yeah, absolutely. Because I feel like people do their for if you want people to do their best work, then you try to avoid as many of these like bumpy parts as possible. And then when inevitably things do go wrong, then you have the enough~ like~ bandwidth to cover them and handle it appropriately. And then also people are not miserable and like tired and their lives are falling apart.

I feel like that's what happens all the time with like deadlines or if you have a big trip or you're just like really busy, like the home will not get taken care of, or your like personal life or like your appointments or like Things just have to like, kind of, you can only fit so much. So things ~kind of~ get ~like~ pushed aside and that's not really fair on people.

Like you want them to have a sustainable life, a happy life, and also do good work. Like, isn't that [00:44:00] ultimately what we want? And it doesn't feel like that's what their goal is sometimes like in these jobs that like, are just so stressful to a fault.

Yeah, definitely. I agree. I think a lot of that comes down to what I would say is proper project management.

at my previous job, I had what I considered, she was one of the best project managers I've worked with. And the question that always came up was the client has asked for this thing to happen right now. And, ~you know, ~I've been asked the, I've been in that situation so many times before, and it was always like, put down what you're doing and do it.

But then usually what I put down to do that other task was still do. When it was due and with this project manager was, what can we move? To allow you like we've planned for your time for let's say the next two weeks and i've started working on it something news come in. I'm the project manager. I'm prioritizing it so you need to jump on this right now What can I take off your plate to give you that time and that was such a revelation for me as a You know [00:45:00] working on a team and as a sort of worker Was you know something urgent came in and I have to shift gears and that is a disruption to my workflow But Something else that I had planned to do is moved off now and is made less of a priority, and there's just so many aspects that go along with that of the, ~you know, ~that project mentioned how she would go talk to the client and say, look, Like this urgent thing came up.

So it makes sense that we need to push something else and then worked with the client of like, here's the 10 things that we're supposed to be doing, which of these can't get pushed and which of them maybe can get pushed. And it's ~sort of~ that, ~you know, ~business development,~ uh,~ customer service angle of, ~you know, ~sure.

We would love to not push anything, but let's push something. And I feel like, especially in the architecture industry so much, it wants to be like, let's not push anything out of that. And it's like, no, ~like~ let's. Something, it makes sense. If you've accounted for time, if something new comes in, something should go out.

And that's just it. ~You know, ~it's a big relief when that system works. And I've definitely seen it not [00:46:00] work in many places.

And what I love about what you mentioned, and you're a great project manager, is that there's a lot of communication going on, there's transparency, people are owning up to, like, they are responsible for their employees and the projects.

And like, if things are operating at that level, isn't everybody happy? Cause then you can trust that people will communicate when things happen. And then also that they care very much about your project and want to make sure that you get what you want. So they are being transparent about the things that are happening.

Like that's. To me, it sounds like a level of control that you want versus ~like, ~yeah, we'll get it to you Friday. And then like Friday 5 p. m. people are pdf ing. ~Like, ~that is not the standard that we should be working to.

Yeah, definitely. And that reminds me, I haven't even mentioned ~sort of~ through this whole talk of, I joined that virtual company in 2010, but I've been fully working from home since 2010.

just completely like I got very lucky obviously COVID was absolutely terrible But I was preparing to transition [00:47:00] to a small commute here locally in March of 2020 I was when I was switching to my first sort of full web development role And it was gonna be a 10 minute commute and I it's funny thinking about now But it was like I was stressed about a 10 minute commute like I did the very very privileged for that But the idea of ~like,~ I've been home for 10 years, almost every day.

Like there was a short stint where I went down to DC once a week. but it's like, ~you know, ~any given work day, like I was here,~ uh,~ and we've had two kids grow up,~ uh, you know, ~were born and went through their, ~you know, ~young lives here. So it was like, if something went wrong with the kids, unless I was absolutely swamped, I could go help with that for a few minutes.

I was changing diapers. through some of that. so yeah, March 2020, I was preparing to go back into the office and then everything shut down for COVID. So I've been fully remote for 14 years now, which is great. But the idea that you mentioned of, ~you know, ~trusting people to get the work done, that's been a big factor.

And so 2010 through 2020, ~you know, ~I talk about being at a virtual company to be like, how do you know [00:48:00] people are getting worked on? It's ~like, you can tell, ~like you can generally tell after a month. If somebody's just not producing something while they're remote, if you've given them tasks and set out what needs to be done ~um, ~you know unless You're just really not paying attention.

Like it's generally apparent, I would say.

And also being in the office doesn't mean you're necessarily getting work done either. Like you can be drawing the same line over and over and not producing documents or you can be producing things and they're not really that good. ~So, ~but you are absolutely correct that ~like ~you ~kind of~ have to look to tell.

Yeah. No. And that's a very good point of one of my words was extra extroverted. It's the, ~you know, ~me being in person in an office every day, ~you know, ~I'm going to talk to people like I'm going to interact. I'm going to walk around and say hi to people. Like, I'm going to lose a certain amount of time. So having been working from home, ~you know, ~I probably get a lot more work done because I'm here, ~you know, you know, ~Working in my home office and, ~you know, ~the only people I talk to is my family.

~So, ~

yeah. ~Um, ~as our closing question, do you have any words of [00:49:00] advice, but I feel like you've given a lot of good advice throughout this episode, so maybe like sometimes we also ask,~ uh,~ what are you excited for, for the future?

Oh,~ um, ~I'm really just excited. I've been in what I would say is a leadership role now for, ~you know, ~A year and a half.

~Um, ~and I'm just excited to keep growing as a leader. ~Um, ~I pride myself on trying to, ~you know, ~not do any of the things that I didn't like in managers or leaders. I had before. ~Um, ~and I'm excited to ~sort of ~grow and develop a team of people and.~ You know, ~really just have fun doing what we can do or have as much fun as we can doing our day jobs like it is a day job.

I don't, I'm not gonna be like, it's gonna be fun for everybody. No, but you know, not make it terrible. If one of my team members, ~you know, ~I've had even just over the last year, somebody will call in to stand up and their voice is all croaky. And they're like, Hey, I'm here. And I'm like, please take like, Okay.

We have sick leave, take the sick leave, like unless I absolutely need something from that you need to produce today, and then usually I'll try [00:50:00] to do it or take it over or pivot it to somebody else. So really just, using the Position that I'm in and the privilege that I have to improve other people's work experiences.

~Um, you know, ~I've been through All I haven't been at very many companies, but i've been through a large variety of different ~Uh, ~you know some great some not so great work experiences and so trying to make You know the present moment for the people i'm working with as easy and as pleasant as can be while also it is work so

Yeah, that is so lovely to hear.

I, I think you're the people that you work with will love knowing that as well. But I think they will also be able to tell that you care. So I really appreciate that you the things that you didn't like that you're going to avoid them and make it better. Like, I feel like a bit of like our generation.

That's what we're trying to do. Like, and now that people are moving into positions where they can make a change and do that. And that's what we're going to do. That's great. That's all we can hope for. Right.

[00:51:00] Yeah, I certainly hope that that trend that that is a trend and that it continues and that ~you know, uh, ~Essentially torturing people for their day jobs shouldn't be you know, the norm hopefully.

Yeah Thank you so much for your time and sharing your insight. It's really nice to have this conversation.

Yeah. Thank you. It was great

~Bye, I don't know. Okay, stop recording~

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