Ep 3: Ramesh Pari
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[00:00:00] You need to be brave if you want to find the thing that truly makes you happy I think for a while I lacked the kind of the bravery to do what I needed to do and you know, and I now look at it and go actually, I thought that was being brave by sticking it out. But actually the brave thing was to say, I don't want to do this anymore.

welcome to Tangents by Out of Architecture.

Out of Architecture is a career resource network helping designers apply their incredible talents in untraditional ways. We're highlighting some of our favorite stories from the amazing people we've met along the way. We will hear how they created a unique career path for themselves from the wide variety of skills and talents they developed in and out of architecture.

Our guest today is rubbish Perry, head of design and BIM at Ocado group. He highlights the importance of pragmatic. Ism, lifelong learning and leveraging architectural skills in new ways.

I think my conversation with Ramesh. [00:01:00] Really highlights, why tangents is so important as a podcast. and I hope it's been a helpful resource to everybody. So I hope you enjoy this podcast. And this episode.

Thank you for listening ~ ~

~and ~

~yes, we're ~

~recording. And can you say your name for me? ~

~Ramesh Pari. ~

~Thank you. And ~ welcome to Tangents, Ramesh. It's great to have you. And to get started, our favorite question, how would you describe yourself in three words?

Hi, Sylvia. This question, every time you ask your guests, I always think, Ah, ~you know, that,~ that question would catch me out too.

And then I knew I'm coming on this podcast, and I still did not know till about five minutes ago what I might say. So I actually double checked with my wife to get a little bit of a bounce back. But the three words I'm going to go with are discerning, pragmatic, and student. And the reason I picked those words, I think, My judgment.

I've always backed my judgment. I believe people have always told me they think my judgment is pretty good. I think the reason probably is because I do believe being pragmatic and not getting overly emotional [00:02:00] in what's going on around me, understanding when something needs to be the best I can do.

sometimes good enough, a word which some people struggle with, but I've become comfortable with that. And, student comes into that because I've always committed to this idea of life learning. I know it gets harder as we get older, but I've moved into a different world from the one I originally thought I was going to be working in for my career.

And if I hadn't really thrown myself at consuming and studying and, you know, Being that person in the room who's willing to put their hand up and ask a silly question that I don't think I would have necessarily got to where I've got to right now.

Yeah, I love those words and your explanation of it. ~And I really relate to that to the student part, because I find for myself, like, I've, come to learn that, like, in the few different jobs I've had, like, I like telling people in a new job, like just how I work and I'm like, I need to understand things.~

~And then when I understand it in my head, I can really like catch things in details. And for that reason, I will ask a lot of questions in the beginning just to make sure like we're on the same page and I'm understanding it correctly. ~ So that really resonates great with me. ~Um, I usually don't talk this much in the beginning cause I, there's more questions to ask you, but~ I think that those words are great.

Um, so please tell us about your background in architecture.

Cool. So I studied architecture in the UK. I'm from the UK. You can probably tell from my accent. So I studied at the University of Nottingham. The degree here is [00:03:00] not too dissimilar to the US, I believe. So ~it's, uh,~ there's three years of an undergraduate.

Then there's a year in industry followed by another two years to reach your master's level. Then you can, you start working and you study to get to your chartered qualification, which is when you become a fully licensed architect. So in total, I think I had about nine years, ~uh, of, ~of, of, working and studying.

~it was,~ it was an interesting time because I ~graduated from my first, uh, degree, my undergraduate right in the middle of that, global pandemic. I'm sorry, global recession. Let me try that line again. I ~graduated from my undergraduate, ~uh, ~during an interesting time. It was a global recession. I think Lehman brothers had Just crashed the year before so just to kind of set some context and probably give him my age away as well and I couldn't find work for love of money I really tried I ended up having to work for a practice and they were great They gave up so much time, but I worked for free And I know this topic has come up a lot.

I know Aaron on this podcast has got some views on this, but yeah, I worked for free for a year, but I also saw a practice that I was working for, a small practice, but I saw it basically being [00:04:00] decimated over a year, and~ you know, it was, it was,~ it was rough. It started in a really nice office for about six or seven people, and by the time I left a year later, it was being run out of the,~ uh,~ the director's house, and it was just me and somebody else there, and, ~you know,~ that was in a year.

So that was a bit of a taster, and then I went back to, ~uh,~ the education, and, ~um,~ came back again. Things were better, but you ~kind of ~had to travel around for work. So I left London where I'm from. And I went out to more provincial parts of the country to work there and did my time around there. And eventually I ended up working in London, ~um,~ after I was fully qualified.

And I was always in the residential and commercial sectors working on, ~uh, ~numerous projects in those environments, but I always wanted to be an architect. There wasn't really anything else in my agenda. So, ~um,~ yeah. I just threw myself at it. And every time you have these different challenges, you just kind of keep going and you keep going.

And then I did get to a point in my life. I was married. I was thinking about the future. my wife, who's a real great ally of mine and someone who loves what she [00:05:00] does. ~She, you know,~ she's passionate about it. She starts pointing out, Hey, you know, you don't seem to love this like you thought you would.

And, and that led me to a different path and that's how I ended up getting into the tech sector.

Awesome. Yeah, that's really nice of your wife.~ I feel like I have a similar relationship with my husband, like when he was in a job he didn't love. It's hard to look at someone every day and be like, you could do so much more, at least like something that speaks to you or like puts you put something of yourself into.~

~Yeah. ~So tell us where you have transitioned to today.

Sure. So after deciding to try something different, and ~that~ that was a journey in itself, ~you know,~ the fear of when you're when you've committed yourself to something like architecture, you think about ~the long~ the long term plan, and I~ kind of~ needed time I needed to ~kind of~ work through this idea of right, let's try something different.

And I can't say it was all by design. Really, it's amazing how talking to people can create opportunities sometimes. And I sit here and I appreciate it. Try and give advice to other people thinking about trying something new and it sounds so Well thought out and well planned and the reality was I had no idea what I was entering But I just knew I needed change and a a friend of mine who I studied With at the university of nottingham who was a mechanical engineer.

He said to me. Hey, look [00:06:00] I know you're looking for something different. Uh, I work at a, you know, he works at a tech company, and he said, well, they're looking for an architect. And I'm like, for what? He's like, I don't know. And I'm not sure the hiring manager knows either, but why don't you just come and talk to it?

And this company was, uh, Ocado Technology, which is where I work right now. It's a UK tech company. Uh, in the, ~uh, fulfillment, Uh~ grocery fulfillment, ~uh~ arena and they're kind of we're expanding into non grocery. We do projects around the globe But six years ago, this was a start of that journey. We were just about to start on our first project working for a big american grocer called kroger and They were trying to figure out how to deliver this system of technology Into somebody else's fulfillment center and deliver a kind of whole turnkey solution.

They were just hiring people through the door. I've never seen anything like it in my life. We come week after I joined the company, 20, 30 people would join in the business every week [00:07:00] to move, move into this new global market. And so when I went along to the interview and I was being interviewed, I could tell the interviewer knew they needed something, but they didn't know what they needed.

And actually this is the first time I've ever experienced an interview where I felt like I was interviewing them as much as they were interviewing me. We've had about three rounds of this. And what I love also about the tech industry mindset is there's a huge amount of honesty about what you do know, what you don't.

And there was a lot of, we don't know. This is why we're trying to get people who can help us figure out what we don't know and move forward. And I thought, okay, this is already a risk. This is not like architecture. You can pretty much. pin up a title of an architect's job, you pick the sector, you ~kind of ~fill the gaps before you even turn up.

And I spoke to my wife and thought, ~you know,~ I'm just going to do this. ~I don't,~ I don't know what this is, but I'm really intrigued to find out. and I went along there and, joined Ocado coming up six years ago. And I have to admit that ~the, the,~ the freneticness, the ~kind of, uh,~ chaos of that fast moving tech [00:08:00] organization, it was, Hard to get used to it was I was a bit like I don't know what to do.

No one's telling me what to do I don't know how to provide value and I think this is where my kind of pragmatism and my decision making my judgment and also just being a student and just sticking my nose in and go, Hey guys, what do you guys do? How does that work? ~ Where's your,~ where are the gaps? Where are the problems?

Where are the risks that you see? And I ~kind of~ ended up helping with a small group of people that were already there. Who came from different construction roles, ~you know, ~whether that be an engineer or a technician role that can we ~kind of~ came together and we create this team, and we ~kind of~ create our own role in many ways.

And in those early days, it was. about trying to just deal with some of the issues that arose, ~um, ~around coordination of services. That's really what it ~kind of~ originally was like. And now it's grown out to be a full design service with internal consultancy, external consultancy, because we don't own these buildings, but a lot of the technology inside it is ours.

[00:09:00] And as we've grown, and I've Taking the opportunities and, ~uh, and~ have provided value. I've now worked up to be the head of the department. And, ~and~ during that time we, ~uh,~ brought them into a world that didn't have them for, ~uh, you know,~ in the early days, believe it or not, even though it was high tech, these sites were being drawn up on SketchUp, ~uh, you know,~ a, 100 million dollar site and SketchUp was what they were using to try and make it happen.

We've now built this whole, ~uh,~ ecosystem of, ~uh, of ~BIM using Revit and actually more than just designing it, what we've really been able to drive is how to utilize a tool to plan, install, ~uh,~ supply chain management, ~uh,~ sequencing of things, ~uh, you know,~ what can we pull out of this that doesn't just support the design elements, but design supports the other areas, ~uh,~ around the business.

Yeah, that's what it's been. Great. Because again, that whole tech culture of you don't wait for an invitation, you ~kind of~ invite yourself to the party. And that's something that I didn't realize about myself was just that entrepreneurial, [00:10:00] I should say intrapreneurial behavior when you're inside an organization to ~kind of,~ make things happen.

It really placed my strength. And it's a strength that I never really got to show in architecture because the industry is quite established and robust and not huge amount of changes~ in,~ in the way projects are delivered. ~Um,~ and ~yeah, that's,~ that's only really come out in the last six years as I've been over.

Yeah. It's so cool to talk to you about this because I feel like some people are like very deep into their career sometimes. ~Um, like, and that's not really the case, but I feel like six years is a very interesting time, right? Cause like two years, the company is still very young and like, and that's kind of where I'm at in my tech company.~

~Like the company has been around for five, but I've only been there for two. ~So I feel like it's so exciting to hear you go through all the stages and grow with the company. Um, tell me more about that. ~Like,~ what was it like when you first started? What was it like leaving architecture and then finding yourself in a new place and getting familiarized with all the nuances of a tech company?

It's a great question and it's probably the one that I like answering the most to people who are still in the industry of architecture and want to know what it looks like. I find our title, though I have so much, ~uh, kind of ~positive [00:11:00] energy and I feel a huge appreciation now of, ~you know,~ I've ~kind of~ gone full circle since I left and came back of being part of that community.

I also think it holds us back. Because you have this title, and once you hear the title, and it's one of those universal titles, like doctor, ~uh, ~dentist, architect, lawyer, you don't need to explain it. People just fill in the gaps. And I think because of that, we as individuals, ~we,~ we don't really dig into who we are underneath that.

And to be pulled out and put into a tech industry, tech company, like Ocado, and To be completely honest, they did not care. I'm an architect. It means nothing that I was the only one when I arrived and it didn't mean anything. And it's also in these young companies, your qualifications are ~kind of~ meaningless.

No one really cares. Well, they're all trying to solve a problem. It's like you're either in or you're out, however good you are. That's what we're going to show you respect for. You know, nobody, ~uh, ~Ocado actually has their qualifications, even in their emails. It's just not the dumb thing. And I, I found that really refreshing because they [00:12:00] forced me to figure out who am I?

What do I do? Where's my value add? And how can I help? That was a journey though. I'm not going to lie. That first year was a lot of soul searching because I didn't really know. And there was no one to look to, to go, right. That's what good looks like. We're all ~kind of ~trying to figure this out on the fly.

~Even,~ even our senior company, ~uh,~ directors and the CEO and C suite, ~they,~ they just knew they needed results. How we got there. What's kind of up to us. And what I found was at some point, you've got to be willing to fail and just throw yourself into it. You can't wait. You can't sit on the bench waiting for a fully developed plan.

You've got to get in there and you've got to be willing to fail fast. And I think that's something that's still kind of trying to use today of failing at something just means you're one step closer to figuring it out. And you've got to be willing to do that. And you've got to show some bravery around that.

You've got to be willing to, ~you know,~ Say, this is what I stand for. This is what I'm willing to fight for. And, like I said before around [00:13:00] pragmatism, this is as good as it can get today. We will make this work, but tomorrow we will figure out how to make this better. And bringing people on the journey, because a big part of what I do now that I, Hadn't done before.

I joined when I was an architect. Yes. As an architect, you're the principal designer and you have a team that you are accountable for, but they're not really line management type of structures. Now I've got a team of 20 plus people across two countries in the UK and in Poland and they report up to me and they're looking to me for a vision and they're looking to me for a plan and they looking to me to tell them ~this is, this is ~This is worth doing it like this.

Nobody's asked us to change what we do. What we did before was great, but it was expensive or resource heavy or very manual. Let us decide to do this differently. And that's also different because typically you look at that top down, right? This is what we're doing. ~The,~ the seniors have told us is what we're doing.

And actually it's the other way around. ~Um,~ I find in my company, [00:14:00] probably in a lot of tech companies, there's You're looking for those professionals to tell you to pass that message up to say, Hey, look, I know we're doing like this today, but we could do this so much better. We could do this so much more effectively.

And that took a while to kind of bed into that culture. I think it showed a lot of humility, ~uh,~ is probably my biggest takeaway in year one of, You ~kind of~ need to not talk too much, but listen a lot. You need to understand why it is like this today and not judge it and go, Oh my God, why are you doing it like this?

This is how we do it in construction. This is how we do it in architecture. That doesn't help because you don't understand the context. So I spent a huge amount of time listening, a huge amount of time just writing notes.~ I've got the,~ I've still kept the books as a reminder, but about four or five note pads full from that first year of just speaking to people and understanding.

~Um, ~and yeah, I think just going through the motions and then ~some things, ~some things just start clicking and then at some point you just got to find your voice and go. Do I want to be a leader here? Do I want to step [00:15:00] into that gap? Cause there was a void. There was a void that needed someone to really drive into.

And I just started to walk forward and it helps when senior people believe in you too. They see you and they think, okay, you understand. And I think the other part was to understand that in delivering commerciality of it and what the business is and what it's trying to achieve, because that doesn't always align with.

Our perfect vision, especially as designers, like we've got it, we need to understand that they go together. So that was one of the things that I think I intuitively did well without ever having an experience of having to run a business before understanding that or thinking about that whole thing.

So, ~yeah,~ I think it ~kind of, kind of~ worked the way it has right now, but I know that first year was. Patience was huge. Got to be patient, got to be ready to ~kind of~ really do the right things, show that humility, ~and then, ~and then be ready to do something about it. And I think that's probably how it played out for me.[00:16:00]

And there's so many interesting things from what you said. And actually one thing that I hadn't thought of or heard before is when you kind of mentioned like the judginess that comes in architecture. I've never seen I've never seen it that way. But once you said it, ~I was like, yeah, like~ there's a lot of opinions and like, oh, we shouldn't do it that way.

Or, oh, that person, I don't know, they have like a preference for whatever. And then ~like,~ there's like a,~ a, a~ judgment on it. ~And it's like, why?~ Who cares? Why does it matter? And I think that like, I don't know, maybe it's because of like the background of architecture. It's like a very proper like profession.

But I think it's also like, Keeps it rooted in the past and not innovate, not try new things. And another thing I love that you said is like, I feel like managers now in tech companies, like really good managers, they want to make their like employees, like work even better. Like they want to make sure like your plate and your time is allocated like accordingly.

And that is very refreshing. It's like, you tell me how you work best and then we'll give that to you. And ~it's like,~ It felt like the opposite the other in like traditional [00:17:00] architecture offices.

That's a great, it's a great call. And I feel I felt that in my time working in architecture practices, I found more often than not, I was being told not to push the boundaries and those types of things not to go too far off center, you know, this is how we do it.

This is what we want you to do. And it's not really a conversation. This is just This is it. And even the ~kind of, uh,~ commerciality behind the projects. Why is it you need me to do this faster? Like, how have you made the plan that to spend less time here because you want to spend more time here is the right thing to do?

Why don't you explain it to us? Because ~we,~ we just get Raw numbers and then challenged on our timesheets ~and~ and we go, but that's as fast as I can go I don't ~I don't~ know why that was the way the project was set up Well, we ~kind of~ try and be more open about it because actually we don't have the answers and we don't know and That's the other reason for hiring talented people is you're trying to unlock them.

That's really a key part of [00:18:00] how I see my role is I really don't like the, the word manager. I feel like it has so many connotations with kind of operational management and, ~you know, ~you've got so many great tools now of, I never ask my people, what are you doing today? Or ~what, what's the,~ what's the priorities this week?

We have tools for that. What I say to 'em is, how can I help you? And I try and build conversations with them ~and, ~and coaching is really how I see this.~ I, I, I,~ I feel like. In today's society, in today's world, we need a series of fantastic coaches to unlock people. Because what I try and focus on is what do I need to do to help these people become better?

What do I need to do to help them rethink how they're doing something? Because it might have got them where they are today, but it's not going to get them where they're going. And I try and focus on that. ~And I,~ and I try to make that my priority. So actually their priorities to deliver these projects, my priority is to them.

Because if I can help unlock them and to do better, then ~we all, ~we all win. [00:19:00] And ~that's, ~that's always something that from the negative experiences I've had in the past, where I just felt like, considering how long you study this profession and then you get into it, you go, I didn't see a huge amount of coaching going on.

I definitely didn't see a huge amount of people having the room for it. And ~maybe, ~maybe the economics of architecture is half the problem. It's, you know, we're just grinding and grinding and grinding. And maybe I do have a bit more of a luxury to, Be in this kind of more free spirited environment, but i'm going to make advantage of it I'm going to take advantage of it and it's amazing.

It is the thing that In not spending my life in projects anymore because fundamentally we all become architects to deliver projects. And then when you start to move into a different role,~ I've,~ I've superseded it with people. People is ~my,~ my primary thing. Now I'm, I'm designing people. That's how I see it.

I'm trying to design the best people that they can be. And how can I help with that? That's all that really matters to me.

Oh yeah. That's so beautiful. ~Um, now that you work. Wait, let me, sorry, I have a question, like, at the tip of my tongue. Um, but, okay, so you talked about how a lot of skills you've adapted, um, moving into the tech space, but I'm sure there's a lot of skills you've also brought in from your experiences as an architect, and like, and I think that's why it's helpful to have an outside point of view.~

So can you share about some of your strongest, ~like,~ qualities that you just love using that, regardless of what kind of role you're in? [00:20:00]

Yeah, ~that's,~ that's a fantastic one, because I think as a society or as a community of architects, we're terrible at self promotion. ~We, ~we need to find a way to use words that mean something outside of our own profession.

~And I,~ and I think about it, and, ~you know,~ there are architects that, that have come to join Ocado, ~um, ~because I've recruited them to start with, but ~you know, ~it's great to be able to bring those people because I go, I'm not special. I might be special right now because I've been one of few, you in a company that has a few thousand people, you really understand how special you feel when you're not surrounded by architects anymore.

~They,~ they look at you like, wow, ~how,~ how did you see that? That's a great point of view. And I think the things that. I believe that the majority of architects intuitively have within them, whether it be in their personality traits or develop through training or develop through actually doing the job. I think the way we view problems in a 3D detailed environment, it actually doesn't matter what the problem [00:21:00] is.

We do not see it flat. We see it in space. That is such a powerful thing to be able to do. Now I'm dealing in a company that deals with. machines in essence, you know, it's a machine architecture, but a challenge is a challenge. And ~you find~ you find that being able to visualize and be being visionary in that is so crucial, because what you find is, ~um,~ people who don't have this skill set will look at what's come before to make the decisions while we are ready to say, I don't think the past is going to help us with this.

issue. We need a new fix for it. And we're brave in that way. ~We're willing to, you know,~ even when we come up with our designs and architecture and we're going to go up and have a critique and present, we're brave because we're willing to do something that hasn't been done before. That is kind of in us.

And I think that's really key. The other part again, which I think is massive is that history of having to present and argue for our point of view. It is Just intuitive. I [00:22:00] know that I've positively been able to influence people to come on this journey with me. ~You know, like,~ BIM was not something that we were investing a huge amount of money in.

They like the idea of it, but it's like, Hey guys, I need,~ I need~ six figures investment to roll this out within the organization and have all the licenses and the time to build it up. But I'm going to tell you a story as to what the world can look like if we do this, I'm going to tell you why I need X percentage of my team is non capitalizable to projects because they're building the infrastructure.

You don't just get people to buy in without them believing in a reality that could be theirs. And I think that storytelling element is really crucial. I think architects do really well. We really underestimate how good we are at trying to build this narrative that people go, Hey, look, I don't know the ins and outs of how you can do it, but I like that.

And it's different. And it's, and you've, you brought me on that journey. So I think that's really key. And also I am not precious about being [00:23:00] wrong. ~You know, how many times, you know,~ the term going back to the drawing board exists because of people like us, but we're willing to say, you know what, I put time into that, and it didn't work, and we'll go again.

Yes, I will fight for what I believe in, but I'm also willing to say we're wrong. And I think those are some of the fundamentals I think pretty much any architect has in our DNA, through the conditioning of the education and the job. And that's why I think architects would do really well, and have done really well in the tech sector.

I 100 percent agree with everything you said. Storytelling is one of my favorite parts of being an architect, and I don't think people, ~like, uh, Like, uh, ~emphasize that a lot ~for,~ for themselves and to other people, but definitely, and then the synthesizing of everything they see, ~like, I see all the, like~ the raw, ~um,~ facts of the problem and then, but I understand we can't do this, maybe we could do this.

And then we just try things out and~ like, ~I think people like refer to it as magic or alchemy, but I believe in all of that. Like, I think it's true. ~Um,~ you mentioned that like the tech sector is really good for [00:24:00] architects and I a hundred percent agree. ~Um, ~ there's also a lot of startups out there. ~Like, how do you kind of,~ so how do you see what could be a good match for you?

Not knowing, ~like,~ What's on the other end of that company. So I'm ~kind of~ asking this to you as someone who has hired people, ~like, how do you tell, like, um, ~what have you shared with them about like your company or like the experience of changing transitioning ~and kind of like~ on the other end, what can people look out for in opportunities?

Yeah, really, really fascinating. ~there is been a bit of that, you know,~ you kind of find these people who are career pivoters one way or another, and they're looking to try something new. I try and start~ by when, ~when interviewing them and having these conversations and even after they join, it's like, what is it that actually fuels them?

What is it that they want to do? Do that maybe they couldn't have done before. And typically I try and avoid the buzzwords. I'm like, don't mention your job description, your job title. Tell me what the raw problem is. Because ~that,~ that is where fundamentally you can understand whether this is a place to [00:25:00] navigate or not.

And especially with the kind of mindset and the approach and the level of structure and governance that technology has. sector companies typically don't have, you know, because we are writing the rule book while we're trying to deliver. I think that is ~border,~ borderly ~kind of ~universal for tech companies.

~You know, we are,~ we're trying to be, you know, the term agile is probably the one that's the most overused around it, but it's because you don't want to write anything in pen. If you're, if you might rewrite this a week later, so you~ kind of ~keep it relatively loose. And I try to understand from their personality and the things that drives them and the things that they need to be successful.

I'll try and get to the root of that because actually what I want to say to them is I need you to understand that this world Didn't look like your old world. And this is where people are successful because I've worked with a whole bunch of people who have amazing long careers, work for big organizations, whether it be project managers or project engineers, or even other designers who come into this world, [00:26:00] and they need strong governance.

stable workflow, ~um,~ good planning in order to be successful. And you know what? That's great. Own that, have that as part of your identity, but find the right companies that come here and they've really struggled. And people have said, Oh, you know, I thought they're going to be good. I said, it's not about them.

~You know,~ they are good. It's just the wrong environment for them. So I try and be as open and honest about it as I can. Because it's not in my interest either, to bring them in and find them struggling. It's not in their interest. And, ~you know, I,~ I also don't mind the individual to say, look, I know that's what I've done before, but actually I do want this change.

That acknowledgement of change is really important, because what you don't want to find is, you turn up there, And then find out that this is really different. So I think I've done that pretty well. I think everyone I've been involved with hiring in the last few years said to me, it is what you said it was.

Maybe I couldn't really understand it, but I understood the words and I see where it's coming from. [00:27:00] So I think that part's really important. And then in terms of as someone who's in this journey now, if somebody said to me, go, how do I find a good fit? I think the whole interview and the interviewer thing that I mentioned before, I think it's really key.

First of all, understand who you are. Understand what. makes you tick, understand what you're interested in, but be willing to treat these interviews as a conversation. In fact, this is probably good advice for anyone in any organization, but the idea that you are there to show them you're brilliant is yes, it's part of it.

But more importantly, you're there to show them that you're going to do the things that are going to make you successful. Now, if they cannot explain to you what this job is, what the interview the kind of conditions and the culture is like, ~I mean,~ please do not leave without finding out. I mean, that is fundamental to making good decisions.

And I would also say that. social media, LinkedIn is a great thing. Like the connections I've made where [00:28:00] I've just written to someone and said, Hey, I'm in a similar issue industry. I'm just really curious about what you do. I'm just trying to build my understanding of things. And ~you get,~ you get responses back.

I've had people, ~um,~ based on some of the things I've written on LinkedIn, who are Kind of a dialogue should we say forward and backwards to just better understand and I don't think people should be afraid of that to just reach out to people and find out. But I also think that going out there and finding out more about the industry that that company might be in is really important.

I, by no means ever thought I would be in the fulfillment sector. Everyone obviously knows Amazon and I thought, wow, you know, are there other companies like that? And there are loads of companies doing some sort of fulfillment automation. ~It's kind of a, you know, it's, ~it's a bit of a mini space race in itself.

And, ~you know,~ the grocery sector, my God, I never thought I was going to be working for a company that was primarily in that area. What you realize is the challenges are really interesting. And, ~you know, ~it is all about, ~you know,~ I'm having to understand about supply chain and mobility of products and how long you can [00:29:00] store things.

And all of these things that go, actually, that, that is quite a fascinating. I didn't have to, ~uh, ~stick with residential and commercial because that's what my bread and butter was. And I think being able to think about some of these things before you make a decision, you're always taking a jump. It's not what you know, but it's more informed.

And you've got to also try and put yourself in the position of saying, If I get it wrong, I get it wrong. I haven't lost any. We don't lose our qualifications and our experiences for getting it wrong. We just can turn around and go, I tried something, it didn't work. But you know what? I've got a whole new set of experiences I didn't have before.

And it might actually make you more employable for having done something different. So I take the fear away from getting it right to I think there's too much pressure. If you say I don't want to practice as an architect anymore, that somehow you believe that first move has to be perfect. I'm going to say I lucked out.

There was, this was not by design. I will keep saying this. It's okay to make that first move of the move again. In fact, [00:30:00] some of the people I know who have done really well since leaving architecture, it was their second or third move that they got really bang on. But that first move just needed them to ~kind of~ almost ~like kind of ~drop the veils of being a practicing architect and kind of get out there and better understand themselves.

Yeah, 100%. I love what you're saying about like not making anything too precious. I think it takes the pressure off. And I think when we are architects, there's so much tied into that between schooling and our identity and something we've invested so much of ourselves and it's not even time. It's like all of our soul went into ~like~ becoming an architect, that when you you.

disconnect yourself from your identity and your job and you just want to do good work with a good company. Like I feel like you can just enjoy your time much more.

Absolutely. And there is something to be said for we probably don't value all that hard work as architects as much as we do when we leave architecture because we somehow feel like we owe it to ourselves to ~kind of~ value it.

How many of [00:31:00] us worked on projects that Got put on the shelf after years and all that frustration, but ~we kind of accepted it. We just,~ we accepted that was the way it was. ~And I, ~and I think actually ~there are so, you,~ you kind of hit the nail on the head there. There's so much joy to find in work, if you just really work on trying to understand what makes you tick and what you find exciting.

And it doesn't have to be the traditional idea of what an architect is. Yeah.

tell me more about your day-to-Day. ~Um,~ I'm kind of curious,~ like, ~is this something that you feel is like, you're very happy here and you wanna do this forever? Or is it, like right now ~this is like, ~you've really grown and you love it, ~you know, like~ where does this fit into your career?

~Um,~ journey?

So ~day, ~day to day is, ~uh,~ a fascinating one because. In being in a younger company that's evolving six years ago, as I mentioned, our mantra was get it done. We're now maturing into a, a proper business. We're thinking about profit and loss and how do we deliver these projects more effectively.

So I'm. [00:32:00] My innovation space is very much around thinking about how we can do it in a more refined way, better quality way, and thinking about all of that and, ~you know,~ head count and budget and all of that. So we are very pro automation. We're doing lots of great stuff around BIM and we're trying to refine.

What we did in terms of, ~um, ~delivering designs, coordinating our designs into more of a service driven, ~uh,~ philosophy. So that's ~kind of~ keeping things interested because there has been an evolution with that. And so I'm very much ~kind of~ focused on that and I think my time is split between, ~uh,~ as I said, coaching people, making sure our different functions in the business are happy with our service.

~You know,~ I kind of almost see us as our own company. Are my clients happy? Where do I have other clients in the business that would benefit from leveraging, ~uh,~ some of the capabilities of, ~of~ BIM and semi automation or automations, trying to almost build business for us to be able to do that. And I find that great.

I don't find that really exciting because I get to Act in many ways like [00:33:00] I'm running my own business and driving our own value and looking at the forecast coming through and figuring out how we're going to resource it And all these projects are international That's the other thing I should add so that we're in 14 different countries at the moment so got people ~kind of~ thinking about their travel plans and who's in the country and who's out the country and ~It makes~ it makes life really interesting.

So I I don't think Week by week, I know exactly what my priorities will be soon as you have a technical escalation. I'm still technically very Savvy, you know what i'm doing this industry so that if it really does get up to a point of escalation comes to me ~um~ in terms of Because that's evolved. I think it's keeping me interested what I want to do in the future Genuinely, I don't think too much about it.

And the and the reason is Because I spent my whole life thinking I'm going to be a practicing architect for my whole life. There was nothing else. ~I,~ since I was a child, it was the only thing I thought about. I picked my subjects at school that best fitted it. I already knew what universities I wanted to apply to.

So there was never ~ ~kind of a,~ uh, ~assessment at any point in my [00:34:00] life in different stages to go, is this still the right path for me? Arguably looking back, maybe there were moments where I should have done it. thought about it and maybe I would have pivoted. Now I don't, ~I don't~ have any regret. ~I don't think, ~I don't think there is room for regret with things like this.

I think I own it and I am who I am because of everything. But I think I've now taken that as, I don't think too far ahead. I'm here right now. It's been six years. ~Uh, you know,~ it still feels fresh because the company itself has changed so much and maybe the company will continue to change and~ I~ I even say to some of~ my uh, ~My directors in the business of hey, maybe one day i'm not actually involved with the design Because I think I could take my skill set and apply it somewhere else and a part of me is ~kind of~ Curious around that so if I stayed in the company, it wouldn't surprise me if in the future.

~I Uh,~ if I had the chance to try and apply this in a different area, I would and at the same time if I was To leave, ~you know, ~would I look to go to another tech company in the same sector? maybe maybe not I think consultancy is quite an interesting angle because I think the idea of I love [00:35:00] to try and fix things that could be better or are not working very well or cost too much or too resource heavy.

I feel like I have a real interest in that. So That's~ kind of, um,~ been of interest too, but I,~ I kind of~ am willing to see which way things go and not plan too much. I read this quote that really ~kind of, uh,~ stuck with me, which was, ~uh,~ Plans are nothing, and they say planning is everything. And basically what I'm planning for is to just keep developing my skills to show what I can do to understand who I am.

And that's about as much planning as I'm planning on doing right now. And then we'll just see which way we go.

Yeah, I think there's something beautiful about being on this side of a transition in your career because ~you had, ~you have had to ~kind of like re like your, you have to~ explain your skills to someone else and ~kind of like ~pivot that way.

And then you had to start new. And then after you get to the other side where you're like, settled, more settled and like happy and like thriving, then you know, you can do this again. If you want it to go back to architecture, you could like, if you want it to keep like pivoting and developing your skills, like you [00:36:00] said, and just figuring out solutions and going it's because you're really the author of your future and you can make it what you want.

That~ like,~ I think that gives you a little confidence in your future, right?

Yeah, no, absolutely. I think you said it really beautifully there about authoring your own future. And I, ~I ~think. This is where I've gone that full cycle with ~the~ the title of architect was I needed distance from it to understand who I was and now I can go back and embrace that title and be proud to be within it but I also know that That title held me back mentally anyway for a long time.

~Um,~ and it's okay. I actually don't explain who I am anymore by saying the word architect. I tend to drop it in later to say, Oh, and by the way, ~I'm,~ I'm an architect and I practiced for nine years before I pivoted out. ~Um,~ and I,~ I ~found that you're dead right. ~You, you,~ once you've gone through that process and you've liberated yourself from it, ~you,~ you don't want to go back into.

A box, shall we say, ~um,~ and, ~uh, yeah, you know, I, ~I think pivoting is a really powerful way of taking away the [00:37:00] fear of what the future holds because you start to back yourself, whatever the conditions and even within your own role, your own organization, when you work for companies that are not just basically one or two job descriptions are actually multifaceted using all those skills we talked about, you can ~kind of ~look at it and go.

You know what? I could make a beeline to move in that direction. I can see the problems they have just by being around it, which again is an amazing skill that we have as architects. We're very observant, ~you know, we, we,~ whether we know we're looking at it or not somewhere in the back of our head, we're computing challenges and problems happening in those areas.

So ~we'll see, ~we'll see. I've got, ~uh,~ two kids at home, I'm nearly 40, ~uh, um, kind of~ not fearing what the future holds, but I know that it's always important to ~ kind of~ Adjust and adapt to the environment around us. ~Like ~I've worked for architecture companies that didn't want to get onto that BIM train.

~You know,~ they were like, it's not for us. And ~you know,~ they were maybe scared of the changes that were coming in terms of technology. I think it's about trying to understand how you can use technology to help you rather than somehow [00:38:00] fearing it ~or, or, ~or not trying to adopt it. And I think as long as you ~kind of~ keep doing that and understand the waves and the changes within, ~uh,~ society and work, I'm ~kind of.~

Open to see which way we go with this.

And another really cool thing is that, ~like,~ you're still practicing in the architectural space, right? Like, with buildings, like, the buildings have to have stuff inside of them, you know? Like, people need to live in this whole environment. You're never separate from it because it's everywhere we live in.

And I find that, ~like,~ I work tangentially to architecture as well. ~Like, uh,~ architects use our product. So ~I,~ I work with architects regularly and that makes me very happy. Like I can help a lot of people with my skills because I ~ha I kind of ~have a foot in each part and like, I can still have my love of architecture and still have my hatred of deadlines.

And I, ~like, I ~can keep them separate. For as much as I can.

No, that's great, actually. And that's the thing, to be able to speak the language, understand their problems, understand how you can help them. I found it's, ~uh, you know, being, ~being the [00:39:00] architect, you often can have complicated relationships with clients.

Now that I'm actually on the other side of the table, and I'm the one that's looking at the architects and structural engineers and other people go, Hey, guys, ~I know. ~I know what your problems are here. We're going to try and help you. And maybe I'm the only one here that speaks your language, but my job is to speak to all of these people to try and figure out how we can make this work.

~It's been, ~it's been really nice to be on this side of the table and go, right, I'm not the architect, but I know what your problems are. And I'm going to be able to try and find a resolution for both of us. ~It's,~ it's a very powerful thing. And I think that's where the value add part comes in, where you go, we have to remember~ that~ that world of, These disciplines of engineering and architecture and everything that comes with it and to deliver the products that they do, there is so much technical knowledge there that it doesn't matter how many times you might've been a client.

~It is,~ it is not something you understand unless you've lived it. So to come in there and go to, ~You know, the, ~my project managers who might come from a software background or [00:40:00] whatever to say,~ right,~ this is the problem. This is where it's causing them a challenge. And actually we can do something about it.

So why don't we, because actually ~this is a, ~this is a relationship. We want them to come back. We want them to say it's not too expensive to work with the cardo or it's been really easy to work with the cardo. They understand how we deliver buildings and get it working on time. ~Um,~ so that's really where I've tried to leverage this idea of.

problems, people and that connectivity between you don't need to understand the technical issue, but you need to understand that we have the power to do something about it. What should we do about it? And trying to break that down. And ~yeah,~ really, it's very liberating, actually, as you mentioned, to be able to help in a different way.

And I think for us, ~because before, I think we've like touched upon this a few times in this conversation before, like~ on projects, like there was less trust and then like, you were just told what to do and like, so much less autonomy. And ~like, ~it's ~kind of~ weird because. The way that architects work with all that iteration and like going back and forth, like, why is it so rigid if we're doing everything like last minute, like, it was just a mess.

It felt like, [00:41:00] so I really appreciate like the tech side of things where we can actually trust each other and ~like~ try to make things better. And, ~um, also like, uh,~ working towards the goal, like if we have to keep revising it, I feel like you couldn't be wrong before in an architectural office. It's almost like we didn't want to accept blame for things because of the liability, but that's a weird like mindset to always have in the back of your head.

~Absolutely. ~Absolutely. And I do wonder how much of it was about control rather than anything else, because ~we,~ we use the word collaborative as architects ~and,~ and I do think architects are great collaborative people, but architecture firms, I don't know how collaborative, truly collaborative is because to your point, there's ~this,~ this idea of someone has to be right.

And if you're not right, you're wrong. Well, actually, that's not true. I think we can all say you cannot be right. And you absolutely are a million miles from being wrong. And the way you do that is to truly collaborate. And it is really refreshing. I would love for architecture [00:42:00] practices to not look at other architecture practices as their benchmark, but actually look at other industries out there and go, What can we take from this?

I think typically, ~you know, ~the complaint is always lawyers get to charge per phone call ~and,~ and that sort of thing. And that's the wrong place to look. You know, that's just another really old profession, ~you know,~ looking at the growth of new sectors and how they're setting up and how they are willing to, as you put it, be open enough to say, I don't actually know whether I'm right or not.

So why don't we just lean into this and figure out what the right answer is. And then we'll figure out afterwards, ~you know,~ how the accountabilities and responsibilities sit. There is something in that.~ And, you know, ~But the control part comes into this, and I always feel like,~ you know, when you, when you feel,~ maybe when you feel like you are trying to deliver a project that either financially or program wise or other factors mean you are losing control, do you then double down by trying to control this?

Which is actually counterintuitive, because this is the answer to trying to unlock some of that, but I think it's a great point.

Yeah, that's a great way to put it with the control. ~Um, ~is there anything [00:43:00] that, ~when you've listened to the past episodes that, like, You loved, like, or that~ you wanted to add to, ~kind of, ~like, oh, I've been there, but, ~like, and then~ you just had your own thoughts,~ like, ~about it or anything like that.

Well,~ it's, ~there were so many episodes that I resonated with and, ~uh, kind of~ understood, ~uh, the,~ the narrative that was being shared. If I had to pick one out in particular, I probably would say this idea of, if you are thinking about pivoting, you are not alone. However lonely that journey feels. I think the problem is we don't have a collective of ~people who are ~people who are not practicing architecture until things like out of architecture came out.

I still remember when the podcast started and the book came out, ~uh, you know, I,~ I couldn't believe I was blown away because I thought the industry ~kind of~ didn't want to acknowledge us, didn't want to give us a voice because actually maybe there's fear around, well, more people will leave. ~And,~ and I think it's really powerful.

~And I, ~and I think. There is something to be said for reaching out to somebody, whether they're in the industry still or whether they've left, and say the words, I'm thinking [00:44:00] of leaving. And there's something about getting out there and something about reaching out to people and having that type of dialogue.

I think it takes some of the fear away. And you don't lose anything for trying something different, even if you want to go back. I think this idea of loss and fear, I don't know if it's, I this conditioning around architecture and the fact that, ~you know,~ somehow we've failed because we want to leave. ~I,~ I think there must be some kind of mental connection from the way we've been taught or the way practices run.

And it's just fundamentally not true. I am anyone that will hear me and I don't go around telling all my friends who are in the profession, Oh, ~you know,~ my life is so much better now that I left. I know that's not the way this is done, but. I find it really powerful when somebody I don't know will reach out to me on LinkedIn and go, I'm thinking of leaving architecture.

And the first thing I always say to them is, congratulations. If you feel like that, you have no idea how beautiful and amazing your life [00:45:00] could be. So just take away that fear and take away that loneliness. And I don't know you, but if you want to message me back, I will absolutely keep pinging. ~Um,~ but I heard that in a few of the stories of people that came on here, or just that ~kind of, you know, That,~ that nervousness around ~what's,~ what's my life going to be like~ if, if,~ if I do this and ~that's,~ that's enough, that's been created.

That's a conditioning and it's not true. And I think there's plenty of stories on all of you within House of Architecture, all the episodes. I mean, just listen to them and you just realize that this is just another step. It's just not the step that you originally planned.

And I feel like the times are changing a little bit. ~Like people don't hold,~ I think before it was like people switch jobs more often. People used to work at one job for like, I don't know, their entire life. That's not our generation. And then people moved around more often, but now people are changing industries and ~like,~ it's not a huge thing.

And like lots of people do it. And maybe it's because like people can not go to school for ~like, uh,~ engineering and then become a software engineer. Right. And it's very worthwhile to do that. Or it was for a while before all those layoffs started [00:46:00] happening. ~Um,~ but I think. Like, there's so many ways to go about it.

Like it could be a better use of your time and skills and like ~yourself,~ yourself, like you don't have to spend your hours doing something that is not meaningful or~ like~ not the best use of your abilities. And so some people are scared of the change and ~like,~ it's hard and maybe like they want something a little comfortable, but actually ~like, I, ~I don't want to say like my job is easier now, but in many ways it is.

So like that change was absolutely worth it because I wanted more control over my schedule and what I do and I have that. So yes, I guess it is very scary for a short period of time, but being on this side is worth it to not have to live a life that doesn't suit you.

I think that's really important. And if we think about any other factor of our life, whether we're trying to buy our first property, we're going to invest some money in doing our house up going on holiday, we're always weighing up [00:47:00] what we have to give to what we get back.

And actually, I don't have a problem with people that feel like they have to give a lot to their jobs, whether it be in architecture or otherwise. But what are you getting back? Because financially. Even those who are really well paid, that there are enough statistics out there, they'll be the first people to admit that feeling of just monetary satisfaction wears off really fast.

So actually, when you balance the two up, for those who say, ~you know,~ actually, I'm giving less, but I'm getting more well done you, you're the winner in all this, because you've managed to balance those two things up. I know I lived for a period of time where I just felt like I was giving and giving and giving.

And actually what I was getting back just didn't come close. And I think that's where My wife probably was ~kind of~ calling this out and holding a mirror up to me and saying, are you actually happy?~ Is this,~ is this what you wanted? Because it doesn't feel like it is. ~And,~ and so I think why not have that expectation of our careers where it's a decision where we're factoring, how much am I willing to give in [00:48:00] order to get back what I would like?

And if that formula works out for you, then great. But also know in life and ~as,~ as things change and times change. ~That's, you know,~ it's like the stock market you ~that might be ~that might have been okay five years ago, and you might not be okay with it today. And that's fine because life has changed too.

And yeah, I think we should all be willing to think like that. Because architecture, the practice of architecture, the education of architecture, it really hasn't changed a huge amount in the last few decades and and It does, unfortunately, there are parts of the industry that do rely on taking advantage of people during a certain period of their life where they're willing to give a lot and it's an unsustainable model.

So I think that's probably where the guilt comes from when you start thinking about wanting to leave.

And actually, who cares what other people think about your career choices as long as they make sense to you. And they probably will only make the most sense to yourself because it's a very personal thing that you have to do.

But also if you're happier [00:49:00] doing something else, if that, like you said, if you're getting more out of it, either monetarily or like your happiness, or just like the life you want to live, then congratulations. That's beautiful.

Absolutely. Yeah. I couldn't agree more.

Yeah. ~Um,~ do you have any words to your younger self, ~um,~ like many years ago that you would have liked to hear now being on this side of things?

That's a fantastic question. I haven't really thought about that I think if I had the chance to share something with myself, it's,

you will,

You need to be brave if you want to find the thing that truly makes you happy and I think for a while I lacked the kind of the bravery to do what I needed to do and you know, and I now look at it and go actually, I didn't need to be brave but in your own mind you feel like you have to be so I [00:50:00] think ~where,~ where I kind of stuck this out and I just kept going and I was grinding and grinding.

I thought that was being brave by sticking it out. But actually the brave thing was to say, I don't want to do this anymore.

And yeah, I think that's probably what I'd say to myself is you need bravery to sometimes break that cycle that you're just living in. If you feel that way.

Thank you very much for this wonderful conversation.

Thank you very much, Sylvia. Really, really enjoyed it and keep going. Love the show. It's my favorite podcast.

~Oh, thank you so much. Um, I usually like I have to clip something to make the first quote and like so many mental notes. I'm just like, oh, that's a good one. That's a good one that I can clip. Yeah.~

~Thank you so much. Thank you for reaching out, being a fan of the show, all your support. Are you part of the Slack group? ~

~Uh, I'm not actually. No. ~

~Okay. I will email you the link to join so that you can keep talking to all of us. ~

~Perfect. No, it's been great. I think Jake was the first one that I somehow stumbled onto and, um, yeah, I honestly, I, I think it's such amazing work that you guys have done to, to bring this together because there really isn't a space for people like us and yeah, it's really cool.~

~And it's great to see what, um, you know, the collective, I call it the collective is you guys are growing by the minute, but you're, what you're involved with is brilliant. I think it's really powerful. ~

~That's awesome. And when this podcast comes out, I mean, you, I know you already have one, but like an episode, but like you should share with all your friends.~

~Cause it's really well. ~

~No, I absolutely will. I, uh, yeah, it was, it was cause it was really strange because we had messaged and then Jason from, uh, From broke architect reached out to me. Um, yeah, that, that kind of all happened really, really quickly. So I think he'd read a LinkedIn post that I wrote a while back by where I think I basically, it was like a goodbye letter to architecture, but I kind of, he just kind of read it and, uh, ~

~that ~

~kind of happened, but no, I absolutely will.~

~And it was, yeah, it was great, great chatting to you. And, um, yeah, just let me know whenever it comes out. I'm really excited. ~

~Yeah, about a month or so. So we'll be back again. ~

~I'll ~

~enjoy your is a paternity leave kind of. ~

~Yeah, that's it. Yeah. ~

~Did your baby just get ~

~so I got to he's actually eight months now, but I get to use it.~

~Yeah, exactly. So I said to my wife, what would you want me to do? So I used a couple of weeks. Up front. And then she said, can you save it? Because he's still a bit little to send to nursery. We didn't quite feel right to do that. So she's going back to work. She's all very excited. She's going back full time.~

~And then she's like, you're gonna look after the boys, you're gonna cook, you're gonna clean, you're gonna do the grocery shopping, you're gonna have a little taste of what my life was like for both of them. I go, you know what, you're right. You're absolutely right. Let's do this. So ~

~yeah. We'll enjoy it. And yeah, like sign off your work and then have your month.~

~Enjoy your, uh, enjoy your leave. Are you doing anything, uh, in particular? ~

~Uh, Italy for two weeks, one of them racing. Uh, I do like a dragon boat sport and there's racing in Italy. So we'll travel there, enjoy it, and then paddle for, uh, like race for a few days. ~

~Amazing. Sounds, sounds amazing. I love Italy and the food.~

~I mean, you're just, you're just going to have the best time. ~

~Thank you so much. ~

~Excellent. Take care, Sylvia. Take care.~

*Hey everyone. It's Erin from out of Architecture. If you find these stories inspiring and are looking for guidance, clarity, or just need someone to talk to about where you are in your career, please know that we offer 30 minute consultations to talk about what may be next for you. If you're interested, head to out of architecture.com/scheduling to book some time with us.*

*Hey everyone. It's Jake from Out of Architecture. We love hearing your stories, but we know there's more out there that we've still yet to experience. If *[00:51:00] *you or someone you know would be a good fit for the podcast and has a story about taking their architecture skills beyond the bounds of traditional practice, we'd love to hear it.*

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