Ep 1 : Jacki Schaefer
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​ [00:00:00] I just wanted to be that person for those students to say, Hey, I hear you, or I see you, or I understand deeply what it's like to not feel like you're aligning in the way that maybe some of your other classmates are, or if this is not the thing for you, how could it be, or what needs to change?

welcome to Tangents by Out of Architecture.

Out of Architecture is a career resource network helping designers apply their incredible talents in untraditional ways. We're highlighting some of our favorite stories from the amazing people we've met along the way. We will hear how they created a unique career path for themselves from the wide variety of skills and talents they developed in and out of architecture.

Our guest today is Jackie Schaffer architecture career specialists. Former head of career services for rice university architecture, and one of our newest advisors at out of architecture. Jackie is kicking off season four of tangents for [00:01:00] us. And I hope her story encourages you to find a career path that you love.

~Okay. And can you say your name for me?~

~Yeah, my name is Jackie Schaefer.~

~Great. Thanks for, um, thanks for joining us, Jackie. ~ Welcome to Tangents. And I'm excited to also introduce you as one of our newest OOA advisors. And to start, how would you describe yourself in three words?

~Um,~ the one that comes up for me most frequently is irreverence. And so I don't think that there's anything,~ um,~ sacred, ~uh,~ about life, about architecture, about career. So irreverence for sure.~ Um,~ think relationships is a big word. So it's important to me to be connected, ~uh,~ to the people that I work with, the people that I live with and interact with on a daily basis.

And my third word might be

It might be individuality. I think that's a big value for me is that everybody's path is different and that we all have to identify what's important to us without necessarily, or sometimes in addition to the context of what everybody else is doing or thinking or saying. That it's very important to not lose your sense of [00:02:00] self.

Yeah, I love those words. And actually I think these might be, I don't know if I've heard these words, ~uh,~ as answers before, so I'm really excited to hear more about your story. What is your background and architecture?

Oh my gosh, so, um, I went to architecture school to a traditional BARC program. I graduated from Rice University in Houston, Texas. At the time, ~uh,~ I chose Rice because it was, ~uh,~ as far away from my family. And it's no offense to them. They're great. But I wanted to go out and like strike my own path and be my own person.

And so it was important for me. I'm the youngest in my family to get out and experience life in that way. ~Um,~ I also grew up in the suburbs of Columbus, Ohio for the second half of my childhood and for the first half in an extremely rural area, ~uh,~ outside of Stanton, Virginia. So. There was something about going to this massive city.

Uh, obviously rice is like a super highly rated program. I fell in love with rice as a place. ~And,~ and I thought that that was the right way to enter adulthood and to enter the [00:03:00] architecture business. ~ Uh,~ so I finished my BRC, that's a six year program at rice and then, uh, entered the workforce at a midsize regional corporate architecture firm.

They did a lot of different. I worked for pretty much everybody. I could there transferred as frequently as I could,~ uh,~ to learn as much as I could about the business. It was also a strange time, ~um,~ graduated in 2009. So like we are in the aftermath of the recession. ~ Uh,~ and it was a time where, you know, I was watching a lot of my coworkers, friends ~I had made their, uh,~ lose their jobs.

Some of them not work for quite some time. It was a really scary time. I was lucky because early on in my career, I mean, while I was still interning, I, grew a passion for Revit and BIM and it kind of kept me in my job. It kept my job a little bit more secure, I think, than some of my peers and I was able to stay employed.

But,~ um, yeah, so I,~ I watched the firm die around me very slowly with just people leaving, I mean, we were at 120 people and I think [00:04:00] it got down to like 40 or something. kind of devastating to watch to see people with families and whole livelihoods that were just taken from them in an instant and to feel the fear that that could be you, ~you know,~ things like that.

So it was, the context of all of that obviously is, ~uh, kind of~ going into architecture with an understanding of it. tenuous and rocky nature, was quite an education for somebody in their twenties who at the same time, you know, struggling to make ends meet and, had my own, adulthood launch issues I was battling as well.

Yeah, I loved all the things you mentioned and I'm, I have so many questions to ask later on, but, ~uh,~ first let's get into what are you up to now?

So I spent the last, ~uh,~ six years working for Rice, actually adjuncted prior to that. So started adjuncting in 2010 as a Revit instructor. the course series that my course was in, the like sort of software education stuff was removed from our [00:05:00] program. And I had a phenomenal, boss, Lauren Klein Schmidt, who was the, ~uh,~ director of administration at Rice, who said to me, what would you like to do next?

And we had the support of, at that time, our Dean was Sarah Whiting, who's now at GSD, fantastic human being. who allowed me basically to invent the job that I wanted to do at Rice. And I thought it was incredibly important to create career services. traditional universities don't have career services for architects in the way that they should, or the way that they could, let's say, it's a highly, ~you know, this, a highly~ specialized.

Path. And so ~it's the, the,~ a lot of the advice that you get from career advisors in general is not great because they're, they don't fundamentally understand. Everything that goes into getting a job in architecture, ~uh,~ all of the challenges and all of the ways that you have to create a narrative and talk about your work and all of these things, are crucial and they're just, it's not about having like a nice resume.

That's just one piece [00:06:00] of this entire larger. of things. And so it was important to me to help shepherd students through that. I was doing that in my free time after my classes that I was teaching anyway. So it was sort of a natural transition for me to say, this is something that I think is valuable and that I would love to do.

and so for six years had the incredible fortune to do that. and, then, things started changing. ~Um, I,~ part of my job was alumni services as well. And there was a, ~uh,~ push to ~sort of~ do more alumni services and less career stuff. And, ~um, it just,~ it's not aligned with my passion. It's not aligned with what I know I'm amazing at.

So I decided that it was time to leave. And I resigned. And the next day, ~uh,~ I messaged Aaron and Jake and said, Hey, I'm leaving rice. I still want to do career stuff. And it was like, you know, we've known each other for five years. So it was like immediately ~you were,~ we were off and running.

That is so cool. ~Um, I, ~what was it like inventing your own job, like having the [00:07:00] freedom and autonomy to be able to actually create that for yourself? What, did you have a lot of ideas? I could do anything and everything. Or ~like,~ did you feel like this was your calling, a very specific, this is what I want to do.

And also, I feel like you probably treat this a little differently than other people in the same role. So I want to know like, what your thoughts are there. How, what did you make it for yourself?

I think that the first thing, the most important thing to note here is that there is sort of an immense privilege to my situation. And so~ like,~ it's important to me to be transparent about it, that I have a spouse. We share many things, including how we pay our bills. And so, ~uh,~ when I was creating my job at Rice, part of it was.

I can be here a limited time. I can cost the program very little money functionally and bring high value. And so it was easier for me to have that leeway when the investment costs for the [00:08:00] program was pretty low. We were able to try things out and see what worked and change. The job description and things like that.

And, you know, obviously eventually that became sort of, I don't know if you'd call it my downfall, ~that sort of that, ~ that constant editing of what that was and what it looked like, was possible because it required very little money and it required very little investment from the university, ~uh, who,~ who were supportive also in, the many iterations that I wanted to do.

So there's that. ~ and then what it, what was, what was your question again?~

And then

while you were

creating it, I feel like career services~ in a, ~in a college or university, it sounds ~kind of like~ a little dry, like as a title, but I think ~you,~ it means something very much more personal and the way that you treat it is also sounds personal to you.

Yeah, I didn't, okay. So I was not a great architecture student. I was like a B student. My sophomore year, my dad lost his job. I became a low income student. I was suddenly getting federal grant money. I had to work multiple jobs to be able to support myself through school, ~to, ~to buy the zillions of dollars of models [00:09:00] and plots and all of those things.

And it fundamentally changed how I was able to do architecture school and how my architecture work was received. and so I think that. I would not call, I would not say that architecture school was a great time for me, and the way that it was for a lot of people. it was hard, and it was I don't know that I ever felt like the outcome from architecture was worth the investment that I put into it from a monetary or a time, blood, sweat and tears, anything perspective.

And so, funny that I stayed related to the program. Basically, the semester I graduated or the semester after I graduated. But I think that what continued to be important to me was that I had the ability to exist and be the kind of person that I needed as a student. I needed somebody who was sensitive to Low income student issues.

I needed somebody who was sensitive to like, yeah, it's great that we're here [00:10:00] and we're all learning. And this is all this like sort of fantasy wonderland, but what's the reality when we get out? How does this become a real thing? You just don't hear that side, right. Of the story about the functional, what is the day to day life look like?

You get into an internship and suddenly you're going, this isn't what I thought it looked like at all. Or maybe it's exactly what you hoped it would be. I just wanted to be that person for those students to say, Hey, I hear you, or I see you, or I understand deeply what it's like to not feel like you're aligning in the way that maybe some of your other classmates are, or if this is not the thing for you, how could it be, or what needs to change?

And so we were having those conversations, you know, And the school as well, just about what else can you do with this? ~How, ~how do we make it be something that works for you? And I think that was very important to me just as a mission from the get [00:11:00] go.

Yeah, I love that so much for many different reasons. I felt, I feel very similarly about my architectural education that like, it was so hard and I have some really great friends. Like, I think my two best friends from college is because we bonded over how hard it was for us. Like, we went to school in Buffalo.

It was cold. It was dreary. Like, it wasn't what we were used to, from being from bigger cities. So I think we like, That bonded us but it like school was not a happy, wonderful time. So I think also that instills in us that we wanted to not have to be that way. And I kind of love that like about, oh, a the community but like not.

Just the out of architecture community. Everyone who goes through this path. Some people don't want it to be that way for others. And that's why we invest our time and efforts into creating resources or talking to people like that's what I love. And that's actually one of the things that I wanted to spread with this podcast is that there are many other [00:12:00] people who have felt similarly to you.

If you are hurting or confused or frustrated, like all of those feelings, it's not because of you. It's, ~it's,~ there are bigger things happening and just knowing that other people feel that way and want to make things better and are actively trying to do something about that. I think that that's part of what this community is about.

So I hear all of those things and what you just said.

Yeah. I mean, it's a ridiculous thing that we do to kids. We say when you're 16. Sometimes earlier, I mean, it's happening earlier and earlier. What do you want to do with your life? We need to get you in this specialized track. We need to have you in these summer programs so that you can be competitive to get into the universities so that you can go on and you can get the jobs and you can do all these things.

I mean, we're asking. And, you know, I make this joke all the time, like there's not a decision I made at 16 that I would stand by now. I'm not wearing those clothes, I'm not dating those guys, I'm not, you know, I'm not inspired by those books. ~I, like,~ there's nothing about that time that has translated to my [00:13:00] adult life, hardly at all.

and yet here we are, and we're pushing kids very, very early into commit to this because in order to get to these elite universities. This is what you have to do. And so we push and we usher them through a step by step. Do this, do that, go here, do this, say that here's a tutor to tell you what to say in the interview, to get into the university, they get into the university and they finish the program.

And for the first time in their lives, everything is an option. And so, you know, we've had these four year cycles, three, four, five year cycles. Middle school, high school, college, everybody's rising together. All of the peers are ~kind of~ doing the same thing. You're all freshmen together. You're all seniors together.

You leave architecture school, and then suddenly you can go anywhere. The path becomes organic and that's petrifying. because when you've had people help you and push you and guide you through all these other steps in your [00:14:00] life, now you're 23, 24 years old, and it's like, well, figure out what you want to do.

You're a man now, you know,~ you're a, ~you're an adult now. And so how do you even begin to strike a path in that way? It's a bewildering time. It's a time, overwhelmingly where we see an increase in loneliness, depression, anxiety, all of these things. And without the structure in the context of the programs, You know, you're meant to wander through the forest on your own and what a bewildering and strange way to ~sort of~ eject these incredibly talented, incredibly intelligent people into the world.

I mean, it's, cruel, you know, in its own way. ~Um,~ and I,~ I~ don't think that the answer necessarily is that you have to handhold everybody through adulthood as well, but it seems like there should be. some way to help people understand what it's going to be like, and to make them feel like there are resources and there are communities [00:15:00] and there are people around, who can help them in that way.

And that's what resonates so deeply for me with out of architecture.

And I also love that not only is it that there are multiple paths, but you can find something and you should find something that speaks to you and your unique talents. And I think most people don't get to experience that. It feels like, they just do the job and maybe they do it well and maybe some things frustrate them and that's just what their life feels like.

Or they can work with people that are equally passionate and like brilliantly skilled in what they do. And it's, ~ it's kind of like~ more exciting that way. And then you feel very content with your life, which I think is not something people think is possible.

Even. Well,

We talked a lot about with students like the right path. So architecture school does this awful thing where it's very clear that there's one expected path. And I think anybody who's been through it knows exactly what I'm talking about. But it's that you work hard and you get A's and you go and you work for a starchitect [00:16:00] and you, ~you ~burn yourself out, ~you know, ~70, 80 hours a week.

More, you know, for these, ~these~ people and you put that on your resume and then you can do your own thing and maybe you can start your own practice or you can, ~ you know, ~maybe you're going into academia, but there's, there's a very narrow and limited expectation of what's correct. and if, if you start to stray off that path, not only are people not equipped to help and assist you through whatever it is that's next, but there's ~almost a, there's like~ an identity crisis that goes through that.

If I'm not a capital a architect in this way, who am I and what am I doing? There is a social component to that. ~There is sort of a, you know,~ if you're not going through architecture school and you're using the right vocabulary and you're presenting your projects with the right set of references, that you're not one of one of us in some way.

And so then choosing a different path feels like even more of that. You're not one of us. You're not one of the people who are doing the thing you're supposed to be doing. and meanwhile, ~you know,~ most of these now accredited programs have a very limited scope of what it is that they're having you [00:17:00] specialize in for obvious reasons.

I mean, that's how the accreditation process works, but, there's no, architecture with, focus on sociology, right? You have to kind of do it separately and cobble it together yourself, or you take the one seminar that's offered or whatever. we don't show a lot of that, those case studies of people doing those things, or we, we show them in a very hyper specific context that still aligns with this sort of one chosen path of who you are and how it works.

You know, did you go to the GSD and get your PhD there? Or, ~you know, like~ there's a million things like that, where it's like, are the ways that you're supposed to do it. And if you haven't done it in this way, somehow it's less when the reality of the situation is. You leave school, everybody grows and matures in their own way.

They take their own path. Everybody stops paying attention to everybody else because they're not in that hyper focused, super close context all the time. your professors don't care what [00:18:00] happens to you after you leave because they've moved on to the next class of people that they've got to teach. and suddenly everybody's opinions of what you're doing become very quiet.

But nobody's telling you that nobody's saying, you know what, no one's looking anymore. Do what you want. Listen to yourself.

You mentioned job security early on and ~like ~that ~kind of like ~pinged something in my head like when you had ~like~ that Revit skills or you were working in that area. ~ how does that, like, ~ what are your thoughts on that early on in your career starting out but also like. As not just valuable skills, but also unique skills to a person.

what does that look like? ~Um,~ because it reminded me of when my first job out of architecture, I was in the marketing section, the whole, then I got laid off because the whole marketing department got cut. You know, startups pivot very quickly. And then I'm like, okay, well, I wasn't working with customers and I wasn't working with the product very closely.

The next job that came my way. Both of those had it. I'm like, Oh, that's great job security, but like, I never really thought about that. Like when you're looking at your dream job, you just want to [00:19:00] work on things that excite you ~kind of,~ and you don't, maybe you don't think about job security so much. And then when you're right out of school, you kind of want any job you can get and you have less options.

So just like how do you market yourself? How do you stand out and how do you have a secure job? Not like what are the answers, but just what are your thoughts on that?

I think like it's generational and I think that like we're obsessed with generational differences right now as a society. But you know, we were very concerned with job security, but also I think because of the recession, but also growing up the language around career for me was always do what you love and in the money will come do the thing that you're passionate about.

Find the thing that you're great at naturally and do that and make that your job so that. Work is never boring, which is insane for a lot of reasons. but we'll leave that, we'll put, we can put a pen in that. this generation that's in school now, I find are a lot more savvy to the nuances of the, uh, career and what it's like, the downsides to it.

And they're [00:20:00] very interested, a lot more interested, not, you know, this is a generalization, obviously, but they're very interested in money and how their bills are going to get paid and whether or not that's going to support the lifestyle that they want to have. And I think that's a much more intelligent place to be than just do.

I love this, but I love it. Somebody's going to exploit the crap out of my love for it. Right. And so, ~ yeah, I can, I can,~ I can love it directly to my grave. ~Uh,~ carpal tunnel syndrome and anxiety disorder at all. but there's an interest now in money. And I think that. What's happening now is I'm seeing a lot more interest in job security.

The problem is the changes are happening so quickly. So four years ago, I had a student who was interested in, ~uh,~ becoming a computer programmer and they went to grad school to do that, finished the VR, went to grad school to do that. And now obviously like this is the worst time to be a full stack developer.

Like there are no jobs. It's a hyper competitive environment. And that would have been at the time, like one of the best easy is like, yeah, you're going to make a bunch of [00:21:00] money. It's super high demand. So I think it's hard~ to, um, it's hard ~to estimate what's going to be the thing. Like we talked a lot about BIM when I was coming up, but there's a bunch of stuff that's being replaced by AI now, or like, whatever is going to be the next thing that takes over for Revit.

you know, I don't know that it's got the same, ~ it's got the same~ value. Right? When I came up and Revit was so popular, I think part of the reason was because management still were not utilizing it. That's, that's actually how I started teaching as I started training within my own company. a lot of the people who hadn't started learning how to use it.

And so it was ~sort of~ a natural fit for me. I was. Naturally interested in it. And so I ~kind of ~followed it down the path, but I don't know that there is, I don't know the job. I think job security is kind of a myth, right? ~Uh,~ because I've seen people get, you know, laid off and fired for the strangest things.

when you're at the whim of an organization or a group of people who are a practice manager, I mean, that's a very human experience. people can make any decision for any [00:22:00] reason. And, I don't know that there is some set of codes you can put in that are going to save you from that.

I think you have to just make In all of life, you have to make the best decision you can with the information you have at the time. And I think that you also have to ask yourself how important that is as a value to you. So job security is one value. pay is a value. Creative freedom is a value.

Like, all of these things have to We say life is like a pie. I use this stupid analogy all the time, but it's a circle, right? And so you can only fill that circle with so many things. If you want the maximum creative freedom, other things, you're going to have to shrink, you might be spending more time. You might be getting less pay in order to make it work.

~you, you know, you can, ~ you can only do so much for so far. And I think that job security is one of those things.

Yeah, absolutely. I don't think this qualifies as job security, but I think what helps a lot is how much you are [00:23:00] interested in that topic, so to speak, like, and what you turn it into because of your interest into it, because then you might be exploring things for fun and not just trying to find like the most efficient way to do something or ~like, you kind of like~ think out of the box and therefore you add more layers onto it.

And not that it may necessarily Keep you from getting fired. But I think people will remember that about you. So if you need to find new opportunities, people see the work what you did. And I like it when your work ~kind of like ~stands for yourself because of the interest and the passion that you've put into it.

I don't think that necessarily you. Relates to being easier to get a job, but ~that's, that's kind of like~ in my eyes, that's, that's kind of like what ~you can,~ all you can do really is just do your best and put your passion into it, but I'm sure that road looks very different if you, for different people, if you're talking about finding a job.

I think that curiosity is like really important. So anything that makes you want to learn and understand more is going to like perpetuate, and it's going to create success [00:24:00] for you. Okay. it's a lot easier for you, a person, to go into an interview and talk about why something intrigues them, ~why,~ why they followed that path, ~uh, ~if it's something that's ~genu,~ genuinely interesting to them, that's going to come through and it's going to make you a much better candidate for anything, right?

~If you're,~ if you're able to talk from a place of genuine. Um, that translates so much better than just saying, Oh yeah, I've always loved, I don't know, you know, multifamily residential. It's like totally my passion, like to say, like, I'm very curious about how families relate in these spaces. How are we all talking?

How are we all convening in these spaces? What's important? What kind of overlaps? What kind of privacies? These are things I care about. It's going to translate so much better. ~Um, and, ~and that's a very easy thing to do when it's genuine. It's not so easy to do when you're trying to make it up for somebody because you just need this job, right?

If it, if it comes from a place, it's very real. It feels real.

Yeah, exactly. I always like to say that passions translate like someone who has a [00:25:00] passion in something completely unrelated to myself, like, but hearing them talk about it, I will be just as excited. And then I feel like I can find relationships like through my own relationship to my passions about an understanding theirs.

Yeah. And it's a valid point because I think, ~uh, what's~ what's amazing to me is how many of these things, like, ~don't even, ~they're not even related, right? So like, I had a, an interview at Rice when I was applying as a student and I was not in the upper echelon of students I, like in high school. You know, I had gotten gr good grades.

~I, my,~ my a CT score was fine. but I wasn't a shoo in for rice necessarily, and I remember going into my interview and I'd brought like this book that I'd done of like this archaeology research one summer and like all this like stuff about architecture and how much I loved it and all the interviewer who was a professor at the program at the time, all he wanted to talk to me about was like, Oh, I see on here that you do quarter mile drag racing.

tell me about the car racing. Tell me about the cars. What kind of cars do you like? We spent the entire time talking about racing. [00:26:00] I left the interview and just cried. I, like my dad was waiting for me and I go, Oh my God, I'm not getting in here because all he wanted to talk to me about was the cars.

Well, probably for this guy. who's no longer there, he had a boring day of interviews where people were like, I love architecture so much. He's like, here's somebody I can talk to about something else. and it made a difference and that stuck out to him. and there have been so many times in my life where I've been at places and, and the things that have come up that have bonded me.

with people in our industry have nothing to do with the industry.

Yeah, that's one of the best parts about, I think, ~uh,~ not just doing exactly what's in front of you or what you think is in front of you is getting to meet more people. I do really appreciate my time out of architecture because working on my projects, I appreciate it. I only worked with my project team and sometimes it's a very small team and sometimes I don't even talk to them like that is my life as a traditional architect.

Now I get to meet so many people from different places and collaborate with them. And ~I do, ~I feel like I'm [00:27:00] more of an, like in the architecture space now, like being adjacent to it than actually working on my projects.

I feel exactly the same way. I feel like I have become way more interested in architecture than I ever was as an architect. And I think that there is something incredible about uplifting, facilitating and assisting people who want to do that. it's been way more fun to be a cheerleader for the individuals that I've met along the way.

I mean, those relationships are ~just. They're, they're it, that's~ the whole reason, like, I don't care if I talk to somebody five years ago, I still want to know what's happening with them. And I'm so excited to hear whatever it is, the lessons they've learned along the way and the triumphs they've had. I mean, ~it's, it's,~ it's so much fun to be out here, right?

Like it's, I love it way more than I'd ever, you know, there was nothing about my architecture job that stood out to me particularly as like, inspiring in any way, but I am now inspired by architects. Every single day, and it's [00:28:00] incredible.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can agree. when if I think back to my architecture projects, I'm like, I was really good at coordinating consultants and all the changes between them, because that's all I worried about all day and there was so much stress tied to that. like waking up in the middle of the night like, did I forget to like put a note in for that or something like that.

so I do appreciate not living that life anymore. ~ I had a question. Let me think. Oh, ~ do people ask you like, are you ever gonna go back to that life? Or like, do you ever, like sometimes people will ask, do you have any regrets about like pivoting or doing something a little different?

man, no regrets. I have no regrets because like I say again, I'll just say the privilege thing again. I think I'm really lucky because architecture is something I would go back to if I had a deep need for it, but I think I would exhaust my other options first. And that's not because I think architecture is a bad place.

It's quite the contrary. I think that it's important for the [00:29:00] people who are doing architecture to use Be curious about architecture and to want to be there. I think that's valuable I think that I would want to find something that aligned more with my own curiosity So I know I don't regret leaving it.

I don't think about going back to it. I don't know I think that architecture has given me what I will get out of it in my life in terms of like that experience I think that I learned a lot of things. I say this all the time that there's I don't, I actually don't think that architecture school is a bad path, even if you don't think you necessarily want to do architecture.

it teaches you how to edit yourself, how to think critically about your own work, how to speak about your work and how to be, disconnected from the out, the creative output that you do. And I think that, and I mean that in the most positive way. So, I think that it's important to be able to look at your work, honestly, to be able to represent your work, honestly, and to [00:30:00] understand within yourself, how you can improve and grow.

And I think that that goes with you for the rest of your life. I think that that filters its way into how you are a partner or a parent, how you are a family member for your family, how you are a citizen in society. I think that it's, ~it's~ everywhere for you. It changes. It fully changes the perspective that you have on life to not accept your first answer is the correct answer.

to feel within yourself that you can achieve something better than what you've done. I think that those types of things keep us going. I think those are the things that create amazing societies. Those are the things that discover new worlds and open up opportunities. And you can't do that without. You can't, I think it's very difficult to learn that on your own and that there's something about the process of architecture school that can deliver it to you if you're receptive to [00:31:00] it.

I also love that. The feeling the power to be able to take an idea from your head and then create it in the world and that exists for many people non architects, as well that where they like, have to put together a birthday party for their children or plan a wedding or plan a vacation or ~like, um,~ Create events.

Like, I think all these things are manifestations of ideas and the more that it does not exist already, like, I think the more exciting it is to, put things together and actually create something that was never there before. I think that's amazing. ~Um, I, ~that's one of my favorite parts. ~And then also, oh, I'm losing the thought, but~

~Nope, it left. Um, but yeah, uh, I think that's very amazing. ~The students that you've worked with throughout the years, I imagine that most of them, is it most of them go into it like a traditional architecture firm? Or how does that like kind of play out?

Oh, I've gotten numbers. So when I was doing this job, part of, ~part of ~what for rice, part of my job was to ~sort of ~track what was happening with everybody, 10 years out. 50 percent of the undergraduates were doing something else. [00:32:00] and when I say something else, I mean something, it could be anything adjacent to just not capital A architecture, not working for an architecture firm doing the design and documentation process.

And so we had people who were working for the city planning departments in various cities or people who were doing interior design. which I count as tangential, in its own way. I think urban planning, things like that, all the way out to, we had doctors, we've had lawyers, we've had people who like went on completely different paths.

And, ~uh,~ it's about half, I would say undergraduates, the graduate students who came through that program, 90 percent stayed in architecture and 10 percent left. And I think that, you know, there's a really obvious explanation for that or not. Let's say conjecture. Right? Which is that when you are choosing graduate school, having had an undergraduate education in something else, when you're making the choice for graduate school, you're doing it.

With the understanding that you're doing that because you're trying to get into that as a career. You need the [00:33:00] NAVA accredited program. You need to go to grad school and get the M arc for a lot of our younger students, architecture is a concept that interests them and it's something that they decided to go study.

And while they're in school,~ you know, I think, um,~ I think overwhelmingly, I think the average in the United States, like the retention is fairly, Fairly decent. You know, it's it's 60 to 75 percent I think for universities, the vast majority of them will say. but then it's once they leave and they're in the industry that they choose to leave.

And I would say that overwhelmingly is about five years. So within the first five years is when I start to hear back from people. This isn't working for me anymore. A lot of times now it's not moving quickly enough. I'm not getting promoted. I'm not getting opportunities. I have been picking up red lines for three years.

When will this end? stuff like that. Five years is typically within the timeframe that that happens. if they're not five years, [00:34:00] there'll be a sprinkling after that, but it usually picks up again around 10 to 12 years. and then it creates its own, it poses its own issues, let's say. So once you get to that point.

Where you've been in the industry for a little while. Typically people have, families where they have partners and suddenly the decision to leave the industry, to cut the income stream, to take a risk on something else. becomes a lot at higher cost. Right. And so now it's like, okay, I've got to talk to somebody three, four or five times before they finally jump.

They might have the discussion, go do some research, come back. You know, I used to, before I was working for out of architecture, I used to encourage them to talk to somebody from out of architecture as part of that, like, let's build a for what this could look like for you. takes a lot longer to get comfortable with the idea of leaving.

and so I think that there's,~ there's, sort of like this, ~this timeframe. And then that five to 10 years, I think there's a lot of things happening in personal lives. So [00:35:00] people are settling into the city that they want to be in finally. They're dating, they're meeting people, ~uh,~ or they're getting dogs and cats, or they're doing incredible travel, right?

Because now they've got the income and the PTO to be able to do what they need to do. and so I think that you see sort of a break. ~and then,~ and then, yeah, once you've, ~once you've ~gotten into it, it's like, yeah, it's so much harder to leave once you've been in it for too long. there's~ sort of ~this false notion that, You can't do anything else.

And I, I mean, I had the same, when I left architecture, it was a full blown identity crisis for me. I found a therapist who specialized in career transitions for women. because I didn't know if I was not an architect, what was I, you know? And it's, ~it's, it's~ like, it's a drug. You know, when you say to people that you're an architect, there's a response and the response is overwhelmingly positive.

They find it very interesting. They have a lot of questions for you. isn't there, there's like a funny, it's like no one, there's like a meme or something that's like, no one ever asks you if you're an account, when you're an [00:36:00] accountant, like nobody ever asked you about your job. Right. Everybody asks you about architecture.

Everybody wants to know your opinion about their house or like, what's cool. And what do you think of that building? And tell me something about columns. I don't know, something like that. I've had friends have me over and casually be like, so was this a load bearing, wall? it's like people are attracted to this and, and what it represents.

And so that becomes addictive in its own way. If I stopped doing architecture and I stopped being associated with it. How will I be perceived? what do I replace that feeling with? What do I replace that identity with? Who am I now? This is all I've done. This is all I know how to be. How do I, ~how do I ~get over that?

it's a bewildering and horrible thing to go through when you're alone. No, I mean, it's just ~who,~ who wants to go through that? And if you have a partner, who's not in architecture, which I highly recommend because somebody has got to make the money and let the dogs out at the end of the day. if they're not in architecture, they don't understand.

[00:37:00] My parents didn't understand, you know, nobody understood what it was like, how, how difficult it was to leave. and I really wish that I had had somebody who did at that time. How much better would it have been for me to have somebody say, yeah, I've been there. I know 400, 000 people who have done it here.

Here are some stories about them. And I'm so grateful to you for bringing a lot of those stories to the forefront, Sylvia, because I think. It helps everyone deal less lonely. And it's not an us versus them. It's not being in architecture, being out of architecture. It's a spectrum. And I don't think that we address that enough either.

You know,

Yeah, absolutely. Another reason why I like to have the podcast is so that people understand all the different things that architects can do and do do because you are correct. People assume we do everything. anything related to a building, we do. And then a lot of the things that we actually do, like the coordination and the project management and all of those things, and the, the level of detail on those drawings, people [00:38:00] don't realize that we do.

So it's an immense amount of skills and juggling and wearing different hats. but I like to say that now, I don't know, I'm about like two years or so, maybe three years out of like architecture, that I'm like, I still have my license. I still like have my accreditation. So I like to still call myself an architect because I feel that I'm working so closely aligned with architects and what I'm doing, with the work with my company does contribute to the general industry and making people's lives better who have to build the buildings.

Like when you were talking before about like, how 50 percent of your students go into traditional architecture and everything else is like not. that, but they are still very much in the industry and contributing to creating buildings and spaces for people to occupy and live in. And so I, and when you also mentioned being a cheerleader, like there is so much that goes into like supporting people and the, work that gets done [00:39:00] that it is all valuable work and it all contributes to that final product in the end, whatever it may be.

So I love all these people that. are making the industry better in their, with their own skills and in their own ways. And out of architecture, ~uh,~ I think this was a post that Jake made once or out of architecture made that I liked a lot. It's not just leaving, getting out of architecture. It's also, what did you get out of architecture?

And it's so plentiful and immense that the things that you have.

I think it's true. And I think that that's something that I wish more people understood about out of architecture, as a company, as I think that there's a lot of thought that this is a pipeline to leave, when it doesn't have to be. It can be about, and I think that this is what's, I think it's important regardless, which is.

What do you want to get out of this education? What is it that you want to achieve and how do you want to achieve that? I don't want everyone to get [00:40:00] a degree and then say, Oh, the industry is terrible. It's terrible for everyone. I want you to find the thing that makes the best sense for you. The thing that aligns the most with who you are, what you bring to the table, what you care about, find the best version.

And if that doesn't work for you and you've tried maybe one or two places and you feel like it's not, it's not there. It's not, it's not what I thought it would be. Now you're deeply empowered to make a much more informed decision. And it's about who am I? I know this doesn't work for me. It's not just this one company or this one boss or this one experience.

My biggest regret personally is that I worked for, I had some internships, but I worked for one company and I was like, well, that's it. This has been terrible. Bye guys. And I didn't try anything else. I didn't try, interior design. I didn't try to go work for someone else. I was afraid to leave my company for somewhere else and I just, ran it into the ground.

I didn't think about at all [00:41:00] about how this could reflect who I am. I just thought about like, who's going to take me, where am I going to fit? And ~it was never,~ I never flipped that question around. And I think that's the most important thing. *And I think it's important in the interviews and in the job seeking process too, to say, not just how do I fit for this company, but how is this company working for me?*

*This is a date. This is not an audition. You know what I mean? They have to align their ethos, the people, the, the vibes. I don't know if* *you know, like *~*the, the, *~~the,~ *the vibrations in the air *between us * have to all align in some way so that. This feels *like *a partnership and I feel like I'm getting something out *of *it and I'm giving something to it.*

*I mean, obviously *what *you're getting out of it a lot of the times is money, but what else is there that you're getting out of it? there is more to life *than *the compensation and the benefits package. You know, something else has *to *sustain you. I say it a million times to people when they tell me what they want to quit architecture and they want to go into something because it's more money.*

I tell them, from a place of [00:42:00] understanding to like, it'll never be enough. Okay. There's no amount of money that you can receive for a job that you are not passionate about that will make that job worthwhile indefinitely. It never will. You have to have something else there because your life, the scope of your life will creep right up into whatever that income is.

Whether you're saving it or you're doing whatever,~ it's,~ it's not gonna fix all your problems. I mean, obviously there's a threshold to that too, right? You have to get your bills paid. You have to have your basic needs met. You have to have, mental health and wellness and all of these things that, you know, many young architects are struggling to maintain with their minimal salaries that they're getting.

but beyond that, at some point,~ you know, ~there's no amount of money that's going to make you love a job that is not the right job for you.

Yeah, there's no other way to get around that. I have a question that might be kind of hard to answer. when I talk to people, like sometimes you can tell how willing [00:43:00] they're ready to make a leap, ~ you know, like~ how reserved they are or how ready they are. Is there something you can see that like, What is that final thing that they let go of that allows them to take a leap of faith and try something that, ~you know, like~ leaving a job or picking up something new or really going in and like committing to this is no longer going to be my life.

I'm going to pursue something that is going to work for me.

Maybe this is controversial, but it is very clear that it's time when the person stops caring or referencing the opinions, needs, and ideas of the people who are involved in that decision. And so what I mean by that is, what will work do without me? What will this job do without me? I've got eight projects I'm working on and how are they going to get that done?

my husband really doesn't think this is a good time for me to move because we just had a baby and [00:44:00] now I'm not really sure or, uh, you see it a lot with students. My parents expect me to work for a fortune 500 company. That is a high value thing for them that I'm working for the biggest name I can and I need to do that and I need to rise up through the ranks and I need to achieve this thing.

in order for them to be proud of me so that when they talk to their friends, they're not embarrassed. things like that. So you'll see ~like, or, ~or like even things as, as simple as, my partner's moving away and so I need to move to that place. And so I'm just going to get this job at this place because I have to be there because that's important.

and that's not to say that one or all of those things aren't valid things to consider, but you can tell someone's ready to move when they have gone through that list, battled all those demons, figured out what matters, and are now finally, and it's always the last person they ask, which is themselves, what do I want?

How do I define fulfillment? How do I want my day to look? What is it that I want to achieve with [00:45:00] my life? And to be fair, these are questions that you can answer and they will change. They are not definite forever answers ever. Your life changes. Your priorities change as you, as you go through life. but it's always the last person you ask and it's the first person you should be asking, right?

It's the first person you should care about. Am I happy? Am I fulfilled? Am I looking forward to work in the morning? Am I at least at a bare minimum ambivalent about going to work in the morning? ~ You know, what, ~ who am I and how do I want to show up and how do I want to be seen and how do I want to represent and how do I want to change the world around me for the better?

sadly that is, like I said, one of the last places people go, but once they get there, it's like magic. All the doors unlock.

Yeah. And then on the other side of that, It kind of looks like your life, you know what everyone else is thinking or their [00:46:00] opinions might be different from yours, and you don't care. You do what you love anyway, and you're happy about it, and you acknowledge that it's different, but they do not impact your decision making on your life at all.

Yeah, absolutely.~ I think it's. It's important.~ I mean, I even see it with peer groups, right? While everybody's going to go, like everybody's going to New York to work or everybody's working for these small firms and I feel embarrassed and I'm going to work for a big firm or something like that. Yeah. I think there's a lot of noise and not a lot of content,

you know,

Yeah, ~um, ~we have a few minutes left.~ Um, ~sometimes I ask a closing question, like, what advice would you give to your former self? But also, I'm gonna throw out another type of question, which would be, like, what are some of ~the, like,~ the special moments that you experienced through, ~like,~ working with so many people, or, ~like, ~ some of your favorite memories, or about, like, your own experience?

I love my students so much. I think the hardest part of walking away from my job was walking away from. [00:47:00] The relationships, the potential to meet the incredible young people who are going to shape our world. there are so many stories and there are so many people I can't even, it's so hard to even pick out certain ones.

Like~ it's,~ it's an incredible feeling to have somebody call you and say, Oh my God, I got this thing that I wanted so badly, or I'm so happy here. Or even I didn't know who else to turn to. I'm so stressed out right now. And I don't know how to make sense of this. What do you know? I mean, I've helped students buy car insurance and rent tuxedos.

~I've, I've,~ I've helped them do the silliest things. I've helped them move their apartments, you know, and there's something incredible about being part of that community. It inspires me deeply, ~uh, ~for the future. It makes me feel like, ~you know, like~ I jokingly say all the time, the kids are all right. But that's something that I will treasure forever.

and that the people that I've met along the way in this type of, in this [00:48:00] type of career, what's amazing is you, ~you ~ you're just like a flower on the side of the road. You know, they're going down the road. You're just a flower on the side of the road. But sometimes ~you get this,~ you get to see more of the journey.

They'll come back and they'll share it with you. I mean, what a privilege to be notable enough in someone's life that they come back to you and they update you for that. I, I deeply appreciate those moments. I think those are the things that mattered the most to me, just. Having those relationships, meeting those people, providing something, hopefully a value for them along the way and knowing that they're going to figure it out.

Yeah, and I just want to say thank you so much for being that person for people that, you know, could help them for any question, no matter how big or small, because to find someone there for you versus not knowing where to look or not having someone or someone like not help you like get getting [00:49:00] turned down like you can change so many people's days and lives like that.

So thank you for all of that and all that you do.

Oh, thanks. I mean, shout out to all of the architecture school staff people, you know, all over the world. I think that,~ um, ~we think a lot of times about professors and how they impact our journey and the advice that they give and the mentorship that they give, but they cannot carry. The entire load, ~ um,~ and oftentimes are not equipped to, and quite frankly, don't have the time to carry the entire load of the student experience.

And so having people who do that, I think, is deeply valuable. These are people who work very hard. They're often paid ridiculously low amounts of money. think that what they do is important and beautiful from, you know, Rice has an incredible events coordinator who is always there for our students to the academic advisors that we have and the social media coordinators and that we have an amazing graphic designer at Rice.

[00:50:00] These folks are all people that, that can create impactful moments for students. I'm excited at this point to move on and be able to create impactful moments for people everywhere. I look forward to it deeply.

Thank you so much for this conversation. It was really great getting to know you and I can't wait for all the people that you're going to meet in this out of architecture community.

I am so excited.

~ Uh, let me hit stop.~

Outro
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*Hey everyone. It's Erin from out of Architecture. If you find these stories inspiring and are looking for guidance, clarity, or just need someone to talk to about where you are in your career, please know that we offer 30 minute consultations to talk about what may be next for you. If you're interested, head to out of architecture.com/scheduling to book some time with us.*

*Hey everyone. It's Jake from Out of Architecture. We love hearing your stories, but we know there's more out there that we've still yet to experience. If you or someone you know would be a good fit for the podcast and has a story about taking their architecture skills *[00:51:00] *beyond the bounds of traditional practice, we'd love to hear it.*

*Send us an email at tangents@outofarchitecture.com. *

* Thanks for listening to our podcast, new episodes every two weeks. See you then *