S3 E9: Where Everybody Wins with William Dodge of p-u-b-l-i-c & Gang of Three
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William Dodge: [00:00:00] I had somebody asked me one time they were like, well, how do you find your clients? It's like a go interesting place to show up and talk to people and they were like, what?

William Dodge: And I was like, it's amazing how if you show up and talk to people. ~What can, ~what can happen? ~ um, ~you know, people have all these, ~you know, all these ~ideas. ~They're like, well, what's your business plan? I mean, I can make a plan. It's not going to be real. Um, by the time we get a couple of months into it, it's going to have changed radically.~

William Dodge: ~Um, you know, I can make, I could make a smart ass and say my business plan is to find a giant sack of money in the red, but I don't think that's going to work out. Um, but it's just as likely as me making a more detailed business plan too as well. Um, but~ the reality is if you show up, you talk to people, you're authentic,~ uh,~ and be yourself, you work hard and you try and do right by people and do good work the best that you can.

William Dodge: It may not be the best work, but the best that you're able to do. ~Um, ~people will appreciate that and you'll find good clients.

Silvia: welcome to Tangents by Out of Architecture. Out of Architecture is a career resource network helping designers apply their incredible talents in untraditional ways. We're highlighting some of our favorite stories from the amazing people we've met along the way. We will hear how they created a unique career path for themselves from the wide variety of skills and talents they developed in and out of architecture.

Introduction to William Dodge
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Silvia: Our guests at Hey William Dodge is a [00:01:00] multidisciplinary designer, design strategists, and conceptual artists based in North Carolina. William shares his wild career journey rooted in being authentic and truly doing his best with each opportunity. I hope after listening, you feel inspired, uplifted, and encouraged to find where your skills and passions meet.

Silvia: Welcome to Tangents. The first question we'd like to get started with is how would you describe yourself in three words?

William Dodge: ~Um, as a, ~well, I'm a, ~I'm a~ designer, a strategist and an advocate. I think it's probably the best way. ~Um, ~I'm not sure if that's exactly what you're looking for. So I think that's probably the best way to describe me. ~Um, ~and I basically through that lens,~ um,~ I essentially run 3 different companies that all do very divergent.

William Dodge: Things, but operate with those exact same principles. I think that's important.

Silvia: question completely open ended so you can answer it however you want. And some people are like thinking about it and sometimes they're [00:02:00] more like more adjectives, but I think if that those are the three roles that show up in every aspect, then sounds good.

William Dodge: Yeah, And that's actually just how I live my life too. ~like, um, ~I want to give somebody, I had somebody asking me, what exactly, or ~how, ~how exactly I ran my business. ~Um, ~and I mentioned, I was like, ~it's kind of like~ I'm always working. But I'm always on vacation at the exact same time and ~like, um, you know, I would probably do what I, well, wouldn't probably, ~I would definitely do what I do without getting paid, but don't stop paying me because I really need the money.

William Dodge: ~ um,~ but yeah, no, I do what I love every day. ~ um,~ I don't know if it's either sad or very wonderful that I live my life like that because I don't ever really ~kind of ~turn off my brain. It's,~ um,~ like right now I'm in a bit literally, it sounds bougie because it literally is,~ um,~ because I'm. in a chateau, doing an artist residency in a chateau in France, which is literally the definition of bourgeois. [00:03:00] But ~it's like, you know, ~this is the first time that I've ~kind of, sort of ~been able to turn my brain off a little bit and just focus on like a thing.

Silvia: Yeah, and then I'll now ask, what do you do? If you can, flesh that out for us, but ~I, ~I generally ask,~ uh,~ what your background in architecture is, but I think I'd rather hear more about what you do and then maybe just where applicable tie into your background in architecture.

Architecture Background and Journey
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William Dodge: ~Yeah, ~yeah, ~I can, I can actually start with that first part if you're interested. They, um, I was, uh, it's, ~it's interesting from when I was a kid, I grew up in like rural North Carolina, like 50 feet from a tobacco field. And,~ uh, you know, I, It's,~ I didn't exactly know what architecture was. ~Um, ~I had an opportunity.

William Dodge: I befriended a,~ um,~ my friend, Laura Harman, whose father, Frank Harman's actually like a really super important, notable architect in Raleigh, North Carolina. It's ~kind of ~like a godfather of modernism in the Southeast United States. And I had an opportunity to really experience architecture at a first time,~ um,~ when I was in like middle school, early high school.

William Dodge: And I was always really fascinated by spaces and I was just really interested in how kind of [00:04:00] spaces almost work like storytelling device and allow people to ~kind of ~choose their own adventure. And so what I basically,~ um,~ did was, is I applied several. unsuccessful times to get to architecture school at NC State.

William Dodge: ~ uh,~ I always say that I applied four times before they let me in and then they kicked me out twice and now they asked me for money and to hire their students. Which my buddy, who's the department head, he's like, God, stop telling people that, William. I was like, bro, it's true. And he was like, I know, but you stop, just stop telling people that.

William Dodge: But,~ um,~ *I was always really interested in them. * *In creating space and thinking about design, it's kind of a way of living your life and kind of organizing spaces and or organizing any sort of problems, interpersonal relationships, anything*. And ~so, uh, ~my background is,~ uh,~ I have a master's degree in architecture from NC State.

William Dodge: I briefly went to UNC Charlotte. And,~ um,~ I also studied architecture at the University of Malta,~ uh,~ when I was 20. ~Uh, ~so we'll get. Kind of end that in a little bit. ~Um, ~but until two years ago, I [00:05:00] was the managing principal of the large architecture office or basically I~ had ~had previously when I graduated in 2012,~ um,~ because it took me, I dunno, 15 years to finish school.

William Dodge: I remember I mentioned I applied four times and then they kicked me out twice and they're so long. Incredibly unillustrious, right? I was certainly not the best student. but,~ um,~ asked the most questions. Maybe that's why they came to me, but yeah, so when I graduated in 2012, there's nobody hiring.

William Dodge: So ~they, um,~ I applied to over 300 jobs, and I actually got ~my, ~my only job offer was,~ um,~ in architecture. ~And,~ and,~ um,~ was,~ uh,~ at a small firm in Idaho Falls, Idaho, and they offered me a job as a project manager, first of all, which is a terrible idea, I'm like the least detail oriented person about certain things, because I get ~like, ~really like specific about certain details, but, ~you know, ~in general, I've got two folders on my computer that say clean up, and then there's a second folder that says clean up to where I just drag everything into a folder.

William Dodge: I'm like, incredibly disorganized. ~Um, ~which is amazing that people trust me on projects, but I actually do a really good job. I'm really good at what I do. [00:06:00] but,~ um, they, uh, there was only, uh, there was, ~there was ~the only, ~the only people that would call me back. And I remember they offered me this job and I said,~ well, pack your car, ~pack your family in the car and come out here.

William Dodge: And I was like, well, you know, I really want to fly out there and see it. I said, yeah, there's no money for that. And I was like, what? And I said, yeah, there's no money for that. Do you want the job or not? I got a hundred other people that want this job. If you don't want it, it's literally the only job in America.

William Dodge: And I remember thinking I can't move my 14 year old stepdaughter to the middle of Idaho without going at least to see it. So I turned it down and,~ um,~ Ended up getting a job that changed my life,~ um,~ forever. It was as a janitor at NC State Libraries,~ um,~ with a master's degree in architecture.

William Dodge: and some award winning research, making 9 an hour.

William Dodge: ~Um, ~but had I not taken that job, I would certainly not be where I am now. ~Um, ~so it's pretty interesting, but through a long string of events,~ um,~ I ended up working on some of the way funding at Hunt Library. ~Um, ~so I ended up working at NC State Libraries as a janitor. And,~ uh,~ it turned out I could do more than that, and they figured that out, and I helped them with some of the way funding, [00:07:00] helped set up one of the first academic makerspaces in America, because I spent a lot of time in the shop when I was in grad school, just did a lot of really kind of multidisciplinary design stuff, which I really like to do,~ um,~ but there was a,~ ~ state hiring freeze,~ uh,~ with the state, so ~I could,~ it was only a temporary employee, and I ended up ~managing to find, ~managing to find a job in manufacturing.

William Dodge: ~Um, ~I should mention too, I've actually never gotten a job that I've ever actually applied for in my entire life. ~Like, like my girlfriend,~ like there's like my girlfriend,

William Dodge: my girlfriend and all these other people that I know they're like every job. I'm like, bro, I've never gotten a single job. I mean, like, not even like UPS, nothing people are like train wreck exactly what it is, but I've essentially created all of my own roles, my entire career.

William Dodge: And,~ uh,~ ended up meeting,~ um,~ a manufacturer,~ um,~ in the,~ uh,~ height of the recession,~ um,~ who was, had the pictures of steel being erected all over. And there were the engineering career fair, and I went up to him and started talking to him. And I said, this is really interesting. You seem interesting. ~Um, ~let's talk and I handed him my resume and I said, ~ we don't, ~we don't [00:08:00] hire architects.

William Dodge: And I was like, good news for you, bro. I don't have my license, so we're in business. And I said,~ uh,~ do you call on architects? And he said, yeah, there are clients. I said,~ well,~ if you ever want to get in doors, you can never in a million years, otherwise get into you. Give me a call. And,~ uh, hey,~ they happened to call me a year later.

William Dodge: So I ended up going into manufacturing, calling on architects. So I ~kind of ~got to see behind the curtain of, ~you know, ~who was cool, who was not, who valued their employees, who didn't, who treated. ~You know, ~people,~ well,~ who didn't, who valued my time, who didn't, et cetera. And,~ uh,~ so it was really pretty interesting.

William Dodge: So going all around the country and some of the top offices and offices, people have never heard of and seeing ~kind of ~what worked and what didn't and meeting a lot of really cool people along the way, ~kind of ~fast forward with a couple of different stops,~ um, I got offered an opportunity to, um,~ I had actually saw a job that, ~that was, um.~

William Dodge: That I thought would be a good fit for a national higher or for a regional higher education leader,~ uh,~ for the Southeast United States for a major practice. And I applied for it. I was like, oh man, perfect. Who's going to know more about higher education than I am? It took me 15 years to graduate. ~I mean, like, ~this is like perfect.

William Dodge: I've seen it [00:09:00] all. So I applied for this job and I immediately got a rejection letter,~ um,~ because I wasn't licensed. So fast forward to six months later, somebody called me and they said,~ um,~ it was a recruiter. And I said, there's this job that's perfect for you. And they said, well, what's ~ well, what's the, ~the job?

William Dodge: And they told me, and I immediately recognized it was a job I'd already applied for. And I knew that they weren't going to give me the job. So I just ~like ~threw some ridiculous number on Basically added 50 percent to what I would have taken if they had offered me the job originally. And they hired me for that number.

William Dodge: So they had rejected me originally, and then they paid a recruiter. 10, 000 to go and hire me for 50 percent more than what I would have taken had I gotten that job originally.

Silvia: You have the best luck.

William Dodge: Well, I kind of found myself in a situation where I put myself in positions to be lucky. ~Um, ~and I put myself out there a lot. I don't really get beat up by rejection. As I mentioned, the 300 jobs I applied for. And,~ uh,~ that's actually one thing we were talking about last night at the residency. It's, ~you know, Whatever thing, whatever risks you don't take, you immediately, or ~whatever, ~you know, ~jobs and risks you don't take, you immediately [00:10:00] fail at those things, because you're not even trying.

William Dodge: ~So, ~what's the worst that's going to happen? Somebody's going to tell you no, or, ~you know,~ not take your call or return your email. So what? By not reaching out, You've already ~kind of ~answered that question to begin with. ~Um, ~so after I was working for this practice for a while,~ um, I just,~ we were doing ~kind of ~really good work in spite of,~ um,~ the firm that I was with, not necessarily because of the firm I was with.

William Dodge: I decided I was going to leave,~ um,~ 2016 also rolled around and I was really pretty interested in getting out of the country. ~Uh, ~and I'll get to that part in a minute because it all comes ~circle,~ uh, full circle. ~Um, ~so I started interviewing with different firms around the world. And,~ um,~ met with a firm in New Zealand, another firm in Italy,~ um,~ various, ~you know, ~practices in,~ um,~ Malta, and,~ um,~ just cause I used to live there, and it turned out at the time, just that logistically for family reasons, I wasn't able to move, but I stayed in touch with those people, and I work with many of those people now,~ um,~ as my clients, which is actually pretty interesting, and I wouldn't have even known them had I not applied for these jobs, et cetera.

William Dodge: ~Um, ~but at the time I was thinking about moving overseas, oddly enough, one of my [00:11:00] manufacturing clients became the CEO of a major architecture firm. And,~ um,~ he asked me, he was like, Hey, we've previously had an office in North Carolina. It failed. ~Um, ~there's basically no one there. It's essentially closed.

William Dodge: We've had an office there for 5 years. They never want a single project. You should consider coming. I was like, I don't know, man, I'm thinking I'm moving overseas. I might start my own practice. And he actually had a really good line. He said,~ well,~ you should start your practice. And you should name it, insert the name of his firm there, and I'll pay for everything.

William Dodge: And,~ uh,~ so basically it gave me the opportunity, trust me enough, to start my, to start basically,~ um,~ a brand new office and treat it as my practice with his money. ~Um, ~and,~ uh,~ in order to do that, ~I was,~ I recruited another one of my former manufacturing clients to come and be my,~ like,~ co managing partner.

William Dodge: And,~ uh,~ between the 2 of us, ~we radically, uh, transformed the, ~we radically transformed the portfolio of the practice,~ um,~ hired new people, won, ~you know, ~pretty exceptional work,~ and,~ and ultimately went from having 0 projects,~ um,~ to over 2 billion dollars worth of work,~ uh,~ [00:12:00] when I left in less than 49 months,~ uh,~ which is pretty crazy, and that's not necessarily ~because of, ~Because of me or because of us, ~but ~but because of certain things that we put into place.

William Dodge: ~Um, um,~ I was very adamant that if I was going to join and this is ~kind of ~how I live my life. ~Um, ~I'm never working for anybody again in my life. I'll work with people and have people work with me, not for me. And,~ um. You know, ~I needed a blank checkbook to hire whoever I wanted and,~ um,~ we were going to lose money in spectacular fashion for 24 to 36 months, like plagues, locusts, like bedlock stuff. And after that dump truck's full of money, we're going to start showing up. And that's exactly what happened. ~So, um, ~because a lot of firms, a lot of times what they'll do is just ~they'll, ~they'll say, oh, we're going to win this project and then we can hire these people. But the trick ~is, ~is. When you do it that way, you're never hiring the right people.

William Dodge: You're never hiring at the right time. And so what we did was, is we convinced our firm to be able to invest in us ahead of time, and we hired all the best people, built this really incredible culture where all the best people wanted to work. And then all the best clients wanted to work with the [00:13:00] best people.

William Dodge: And we built one of the best firms in the United States. And, ~ uh,~ so after that,~ um,~ this is a really long, it is spelled tangents for a reason, but,~ uh,~

Silvia: Keep going. Keep

Silvia: going.

William Dodge: a really long story. But,~ um,~ basically,~ um,~ through my time, I was the national higher education leader. For, um,~ um,~ like academic spaces for this particular firm and help to run the office.

William Dodge: We later were fortunate enough to convince some other good buddies of ours that were great at operations and managing people and all that stuff to come along and~ kind of ~really manage that kind of stuff. ~Um, ~but,~ um,~ I would always see these opportunities that weren't necessarily the right fit for us, but they were the right fit for other people that I knew.

William Dodge: And so it's ~like, ~oh, X, Y, Z project is happening well. That's not a right thing for me, but Ryan should talk to Peter and they should pursue this project and they should put this landscape architect on the team because this university loves that landscape architect or whatever it is, right? And they go and win a 100 million dollar project or a big deal master plan [00:14:00] with a 5 million dollars or whatever it is.

William Dodge: And so basically, not even including my own firm, I figured out that I probably put. I don't know, close to 10 million in net fees into other people's firms, and which is great. *I was just trying to do it to help people out because I saw a need and I can connect the dots for people to be successful. And that's what I do for a living.*

William Dodge: *I've done it my whole life. *~*Um, *~*but at the end of the day, I still, *~*I mean, *~*I graduated with six figures in student loans. I still have student loans. *~*Um, *~*and I love working with other people and bigger companies, et cetera. It's great. But at the end of the day, I really just decided that. *~*My,*~* my usefulness, it's not *~*that I wasn't, it's not *~*that I wasn't so useful, but *~*like, *~*I had *~*my, *~*my impact and that firm was essentially vertical.*

William Dodge: *The 1st, 4 years, I could have been there the next 50 years and not had a 10th of the impact that I had the 1st floor.* *And so *~*what I've decided*~* what I've done my entire career is every 3 to 4 years. I find a new job. Not because it's not fulfilling anymore. It's just, they don't need me. I've *~*kind of *~*done what I've *[00:15:00] *been there to do.*

William Dodge: *So instead, what I decided to do was instead of making other people millions of dollars and getting paid a salary, what I decided to do was I was going to go out on my own and figure out a way to monetize that. But also, and you'll still be able to connect the dots for people to be successful, but be able to pick and choose my clients,*~ um, my,~ I ~started my, ~went out on my own and started my own practice called Public two years ago.

William Dodge: And,~ uh,~ so my, with a pretty radical goal sounds ridiculous, but~ it's,~ it is a pretty radical thought. It's like to be able to do the best work I can, but people with wonderful ~people, ~people that I love.~ Um, ~have fun, make a difference and get paid my value. ~Like ~that shouldn't be a radical thing. It totally is in our industry.

William Dodge: And,~ uh,~ so instead of being able to go and, charge some ridiculous amount of money for my expertise, which is,~ um,~ I've got a really pretty extensive knowledge and network of people and, ~you know, ~instead of going and saying somebody asking ~what, ~what I charge by the hour, I actually don't charge by the hour.

William Dodge: I charge on retainer,~ um,~ and which is really [00:16:00] unusual for architecture, but basically the way I look at it ~is, ~is I'm an on contract part time senior partner to different firms around the world. And I work on retainer. *People don't need me until they need me, but when they need me, they really need me. And it's *~*like, *~*if I can make somebody a million dollars working a hundred hours a week, that's one thing.*

William Dodge: *If I can make somebody a million dollars with a quick phone call, it doesn't matter. It's irrelevant. It's the same result, right? It's not about time *~*and, *~*and *~*uh, kind of *~*billable hours, all of that. So it seems *~*kind of *~*preposterous. *~*Um, *~*and so what I decided to do is take my rate, what I felt like I needed to make.*

William Dodge: ~*Um. *~*Break it down *~*in a, *~*in a kind of a digestible format.* So I work with different practices that don't compete with one another, whether they're in New Zealand or Malta or Philadelphia or wherever it is. And basically my rate is my rate. So there's no multiplier on it when you have an employee. So you have a 50, 000 employee.

William Dodge: Well, that~ Well, ~costs a company close to 100, 000, if not more to employ that person. ~Well, ~if somebody's paying me X, Y, Z. A month. That's [00:17:00] my rate. There's no multiplier on that, right? And so what I basically what I do is propose. ~Um, ~this is a digestible rate. You can have all of my network access to my portfolio access to my insight strategy ~kind of ~thought process.

William Dodge: Or essentially what it costs you to employ a mid level employee. ~Um, ~and so what I do ~is, ~is, and then I work with multiple different clients and I aggregate my cost of multiple literally nations, ~um,~ in the areas in the world. And then that way I'm able to get paid by value, work with cool people, connect dots or other people to be successful, et cetera.

William Dodge: And originally I thought I really needed to limit my client base and it's been X number of time working with each one. And I actually had a client,~ um,~ about six months after I started, he said, ~you know, ~honestly, don't worry about doing that, man. ~Like, ~we need you when we need you. We don't need you to manufacture stuff to do to fill up your time.

William Dodge: And he was like, and if anything, he's like, actually, you having more clients is actually beneficial to all of us because then we know more what's going on around the world and in [00:18:00] different markets, as opposed to just being super siloed in our specific region or market, which is really interesting. ~So, um, Yeah, it's been, ~it's been two years is,~ um,~ starting your own business is,~ um,~ both deeply,~ uh,~ exciting and scary as hell.

William Dodge: ~Um, ~it's like finding out that you have the opportunity to go to the moon, ~you know, ~it's like really exciting, but I was like, it's a disaster could strike. ~Um, ~but,~ uh,~ if you make it, it'll be worth it. And even if you're not, damn, at least you tried, ~you know, ~and,~ uh, kind of be, ~that's kind of like my mentality on life.

William Dodge: What's the worst that's going to happen? At least, ~you know, ~to me, the worst that's going to happen is me sitting on my deathbed when I'm older, I'm dying of some disease, wishing I'd lived my life a different way.

William Dodge: Really long, rambling answer.

Silvia: no, I think that's actually part of tangents is that like sharing everyone's unique career journeys, the thoughts they had along the way, and those unique experiences ~is kind of like ~can help other people who might ~be on some part of~ share that some part of that journey.

William Dodge: Yeah, and I will say too, there's actually a really ~um. ~Interesting little moment,~ um,~ not only about,~ um,~ when I was working at NC State Libraries. ~So, ~[00:19:00] actually, I should have mentioned that there was an opportunity that I had before that at NC State Libraries, where they were looking for an exhibit design consultant, and I applied for it and I was so excited for it.

William Dodge: I was like, this is going to be amazing. I love making stuff. I love doing exhibit design and I hit it off with the hiring person and I was like, this is going to be great. ~And then she is. ~I thought she was gonna give me the job, and she called, and she goes, Hey, William,~ like,~ we love you, man. We really want to hire you, but decided I really need just more, some more graphic design help, so we're gonna hire somebody else.

William Dodge: Turns out he's a friend of yours, and I was like, oh, man, that's really a bummer. But Lincoln Hancock, oh, he's an amazing guy. He's a great designer. and so I was, like, really devastated, but happy for my buddy. ~Well, ~Well, she calls me back a couple weeks later, and I was like,~ well,~ good news, bad news. Bad news ~is, ~is I'm screwed because I don't have enough help.

William Dodge: Good news is that now I need more help and I can pay you more so I can hire you as a contractor. But,~ um, you know, ~you just basically have to bill me at the end of the project to help me with some exhibit design. So I was basically a part time contractor ~for, um,~ to help with this project. ~Well, ~Well, I was doing all kinds of [00:20:00] other stuff.

William Dodge: I was working,~ um,~ there's a music festival in North Carolina called Hopscotch, and I used to run all the outside bars for Hopscotch, and I remember ~there was a, um,~ we had a deadline, the exhibition had to be open, so the board of trustees were coming the next morning while I was also running the bars for Hopscotch, and Modest Mouse, and Flaming Lips, and ~like, um, ~I think Public Enemy were playing, and I was like, 10, 000 people are coming to this show, I've gotta leave, and I remember walking out the door, And,~ uh,~ my, my boss is crying and she's ~like, ~this is going to be a disaster.

William Dodge: I'm going to get fired if we don't get this done. And I told her, I said, I'll be back. The library's open 24 hours, right? She said, yeah. I said, I'll be back. And so I left, and I went and worked the show, and I came back at ~like ~3. 30 in the morning, exhausted, and we just ~kind of ~powered through it, and we got the exhibition.

William Dodge: ~Well, ~I remember when ~they, ~the assistant university librarian came in, and he was like, man, he was like, this looks amazing. I can't believe you guys got it done. And I said, yeah, ~you know, you know, ~we needed to get done. So we got it done. And he goes, you're still wearing the same clothes you wore yesterday.

William Dodge: And I said, yeah, you know, we're~ you know, ~[00:21:00] working, running these bars at this music festival. And he was like, interesting. And he was like,~ well,~ he is a man. He really saved us. I can't thank you enough. I'll see you on Monday. I said, well, actually. It won't see me on Monday because my contract ends now. And he said, well, I have a job for you if you're interested.

William Dodge: And I said,~ well,~ what's that? ~Uh, ~so no, I said, I'll take it. And he goes, don't you want to hear what it is first? I said, I don't care. ~And, uh,~ and he said, it's a facilities maintenance technician. I was like, sounds great. He goes, you know what that is? I was like, no idea. He's ~like, ~it's a janitor. I paid him 9 an hour, but it's something.

William Dodge: And I said, sounds great. Sign me up. And so that's how I ended up working in libraries. And I told you the rest earlier, but fast forward when I was working at this one firm in Raleigh, that we were growing our practice from scratch this firm had previously been known for,~ um,~ higher education, like student housing and master plan.

William Dodge: ~Okay. Like, ~they've never really done libraries or any sort of academic building or civic buildings or whatever. And,~ um, I mean, ~the 1st project we ended up doing was. A corn maze, a modernist corn maze at the North Carolina Museum of [00:22:00] Art,~ um,~ in partnership with my old boss from NCC Libraries that I was trying to kind of stage,~ uh,~ to do, and so I was,~ um,~ she and I were the two artists on this exhibition in North Carolina Museum of Art, and my old firm was the architect of record on a corn maze, which is hilarious to see young designers doing section models of a corn maze.

William Dodge: And all this stuff. It's actually pretty hilarious. ~Well ~anyway, so that project actually started to get some,~ some, um, ~regional,~ um,~ press. And people at our firm are really curious about what are these people in Raleigh doing? ~We, ~we don't do that. We do student housing, Don. They know that. And so we've started to really kinda rapidly transform the portfolio.

William Dodge: ~Well ~also too, it was a building master plan for part of the NC State libraries, which was the gold standard nationally or actually internationally for academic libraries. So we applied for this project ~and we were using all our personal, personal images, ~my buddy, Jesse and I, and we were using all our personal images and previous experience, like the way finding maps about library, whatever, the corn maze that we were doing in partnership with the late designer of the library.

William Dodge: So we go and we interviewed for this [00:23:00] project and ~we, ~we killed the interview. It's great. ~Well, ~at the end of the interview, the university decided pretty much that they were going to go in a different direction with the selection. It's a really good firm. ~Um, ~to another really good firm and the university librarian stood up and said, no, we're going to hire this firm because I trust William because William stayed all night to make sure that my exhibition got done and I promised you that they will do the best job because at that time, Greg had gone from being assistant university librarian to the vice provost at the university and the university librarian and He knew that I would do everything I could to help him,~ um,~ help him out on the project.

William Dodge: And it was that single project that transformed our portfolio, because then all of a sudden. We had a project with the gold standard for academic libraries that we could shop around the country. And so we started doing libraries all over New Orleans, Iowa State, all these other places ~that ~that allowed our firm to continue to grow and we would have never done that if I [00:24:00] hadn't come back from working all night at the bar to make sure that their exhibition was open and had I not taken the janitor job.

William Dodge: I would have never been in that situation. ~very, ~That's a very, very long and ~um, kind of uh, ~random string of events, but I guess ~like, ~as I mentioned, *I always try and put myself in situations to be able to help people,*~* um,*~* in an authentic way, not a self serving way, just because that's how I was raised. *~*Um,*~* to try and do the best work I can with the best people I have fun, make a difference.*

William Dodge: *And that's how I've tried to build my practices. That's how I've tried to,*~* um,*~* set the work culture everywhere I've worked. And,*~* uh,*~* we,*~* uh,*~* always try to be a mentor as I've had certainly had really amazing, incredible people mentor me,*~* um,*~* and,*~* uh,*~* and create kind of an atmosphere of constant growth and hustle too, because *~*like, *~*Things in life aren't given to us.*

William Dodge: ~Um, ~*and I think we can get complacent really easily. And I feel like our industry has gotten super complacent and I think it's profoundly broken. *~Um, ~I remember when I left my previous firm, it was like a really wonderful [00:25:00] conversation. I mean,~ I mean, ~the CEO gave me a hug, told me he loved me and he'd do everything he could to help me move forward, which meant a lot to me.

William Dodge: That firm probably would have gone bankrupt if we had not started that office because with COVID, all higher education stopped and we had started to diversify and get into life science and brought in all these other people where we actually exploded during the pandemic where everybody else was laying people off and we would have never stayed in business if they had stayed in with their traditional business model.

William Dodge: But I remember when I was leaving, he said,~ well,~ what are you going to do? I said, I don't want to be an architect, man. And he said,~ well,~ what do you want to do? I said, I just want to do really incredible architecture. It was a big difference. And they started laughing, because ~that's, ~that's actually, that's a great quote.

William Dodge: And I said, yeah, it is, but it's also a really good point. *Most architects don't actually really get a chance to get involved in changing people's lives in the way that *~*we, *~*we imagine that architects can and do. *~*Um,*~* and I feel like most people in America, at least, become more facilitators of buildings rather than, *~*you know.*~

William Dodge: *Truly *[00:26:00] *great builders of space and community, which I feel like that's what architecture is lacking globally, but in particular, and that's. *

Silvia: There are a lot of different,~ um,~ qualities of your character, your personality that I think you can strongly connect to the different,~ um,~ points in your journey, like the way you said you want to be really authentic and do your best and the hustle that comes through really strongly. I could ask you, ~you know, like, ~what is a example of a project or a client that you've worked with that,~ like, kind of ~is like a favorite example.

Silvia: But. I imagine that they might all be very different from one another.

Projects done with Clients
---

William Dodge: Yeah. They,~ ~

William Dodge: ~They, ~they are actually, I think my favorite example, maybe the example I just gave you about how when I was a janitor, it turned into one being that ultimately set in motion a series of events that helped,~ uh,~ transform a portfolio for a nationally recognized firm. Yeah. So I think that may be the, a really great example.

William Dodge: ~Um, um, I, I, ~but, I actually too,~ I, I, ~I would say that ~so. ~I've got a multiple different [00:27:00] practices. I should say, I've got a strategy and design practice public, which I'd mentioned. ~Um, ~and then I actually,~ um,~ I have a ~public art project and~ public art, ~um. ~From called a gang of 3 with 2 buddies,~ uh,~ 1 of which is a landscape architect is 1 of the best landscape architect in the country as well.

William Dodge: Belcher is from ground control. They're really fantastic. You should check them out if you don't know them, but they're doing really amazing work with some of the top architects globally,~ um,~ all over. And I met him through my previous experience pursuing work and or putting him on teams for said projects for other people, because he was a really the best fit to be on the team and help with the project, et cetera.

William Dodge: And oddly enough, the other person who, from Gang of 3, we became really good friends during our time working together at NC State Libraries, when he got the job that I didn't. When I had applied for the Exhibit Design Consultant, that's my buddy, Lloyd Hancock. So he ultimately ended up getting the job, which put me in a situation where I didn't have a job after the exhibition, etc.,

William Dodge: which led to the janitor thing and all that stuff. So the three of us [00:28:00] have a practice called a Gang of Three. we started doing public art that kind of really operates in a weird kind of gradient of space between public art, landscape ~architecture, ~architecture, installation, urban design, and planning.

William Dodge: It's not really any of those things, but all of those things at the exact same time. ~ And, uh, ~And so it was,~ it was, ~different than ~when, ~when it was, when I started public, because* I intentionally started my strategy practice because I saw a hole in the market and there was no one in the world that was doing what I did, which is really great from a standpoint of you have no competitors, but it's also really *~*like *~*challenging because you have no competitors and nobody understands what you did, *~*uh,*~* with a gang three,*~* uh,*~* we had started.*

William Dodge: *Basically,*~* um,*~* due to the fact that all of us have been involved in large scale projects that had public art on them, or we've been involved with selection committees, planning committees or whatever. And we had seen kind of some of the quality of,*~* um,*~* difference on public arts and metals. And we were really,*~* um,*~* that we noticed that they were very much object *[00:29:00] *based.*

William Dodge: ~Like, ~*here's my thing. Here's my statue of a bronze eagle or. Old dead white guy or whatever it is, *~*you know, *~*and,*~* uh,*~* that's just not at all what we were interested in. And so what we did was very place focused,*~* uh,*~* research based,*~* uh,*~* public art, which I think really resonates with people, allows people to *~*kind of *~*choose their own adventure,*~* uh,*~* within the space and have their own experience with it.*

William Dodge: Kind of ~like ~what I was trying to do with architecture, ~um,~ and design, but the interesting thing about that is while public was intentionally designed to meet a need that didn't exist globally. ~ ~We did not intend to start a public art practice that had no competitors, but because of what the way that we approach things, we have no competitors.

William Dodge: What that means is we're not right for every project, but the projects we're right for, we're really right for, right? And you had asked me about 1 of my favorite projects is we, our 1st project that we ever won is a gang 3 was for a floodplains educational project. For the city of Raleigh, the city couldn't [00:30:00] call it public art because they didn't want the conservative people to get upset about blood flame money was being spent on some fancy art piece.

William Dodge: ~so, uh, ~so, uh, we were hired,~ um,~ essentially ~to, ~to look at 2 acres of land,~ um, uh, ~in Crabtree Valley and,~ um,~ the city of Raleigh, ~um. ~Which, there's a mall that was built there in the early 70s, and after they built the mall there, it basically caused ecological devastation of,~ like,~ untold proportions. There are neighborhoods around there that no longer exist because of flooding that has occurred.

William Dodge: People have died. It's horrific, oddly enough. ~Um, uh, ~one of my childhood friends died, drowned as a result of the flooding at Crabtree Creek when I was in high school. ~Uh,~ in the aftermath of Hurricane Wren. ~Um,~ yeah. Two other, another friend that, three other friends that were there with him, and one of them almost drowned, and my entire Rev1 race, and diving to save my friend Luke, who later on, after we won this project, we hired to work with the project on us, and we finished it on the 25th anniversary of our friend's death.

William Dodge: Which is really heavy,~ um,~ but we [00:31:00] were given 50, 000 for 2 acres. That basically works out to be about 56 cents in a square foot. So ~it's, uh,~ can imagine what you can do with that. ~It's, uh,~ but what we decided to do, we were all kind of brainstorming about it and normally we don't like to come to projects with preconceived notions of what things should be.

William Dodge: But being that we were so familiar with the site and we had such a strong personal history with it, both Lincoln and I only lived less than a mile from there and ~um, ~I'm very familiar with it. And due to the budget constraints, we just knew that there was only one, the only thing we could come up with was basically doing~ um, ~we were trying to educate ~the floodwater, uh,~ people on the floodwaters and how dangerous they can be.

William Dodge: Because it's a flash flood, it's not just a hurricane. And so we decided to do was,~ um,~ do color coded flagpoles, essentially. They're not actually flagpoles, they're actually much nicer. But the, the concept is there,~ the, color, color, ~color flagpoles and cap them off at each top of each storm and have multiple for each storm.

William Dodge: So when you stand next to one and it's 25 feet tall, and you go, damn, that's tall. you experience it one [00:32:00] way. But then when your eye drops and you see all the corresponding ones that are same color code, your eye draws an invisible line between them and you situate yourself underwater. All right. ~so, ~so what we did was through that, we were able to do 25 markers as well as a, almost a little bit, there's an underpass also as part of the project.

William Dodge: We always knew we were going to do something there under the underpass in terms of data or whatever. And so what we essentially try to do is come up with a system that named the storms and talked about the dates and the data. But almost in like a~ like ~Little Orphan Annie, Secret Dakota Ring type way, where you had to spend some time with it to understand what it was ~to, ~and you couldn't understand it without understanding the flood markers.

William Dodge: And you couldn't understand the flood markers without understanding the piece. So you really had to spend some time. And there was a landscape element too, where it's,~ uh,~ with a re instituted native meadow that we invited the public to come and. Ed and plant. So in 5, 10, 15, 20 years later, when these little kids that were out there planning it will drive by and fill a sense of ownership.

William Dodge: So anyway, we were [00:33:00] able to do that project, finish the project floods all the time to the best of our knowledge. It's one of, if not the only project of its kind and globally. ~Um, ~but there are projects that are designed to flood, like spiral jetty. Floods,~ um,~ on the Great Salt Lake, but that's a more of a gradual thing.

William Dodge: This will be like, people will be walking there one day and then the next day it'll be under 20 feet of water. Like ~it's, ~it's a pretty wild thing depending on what the weather patterns are, et cetera. And as I mentioned, we were able to partner with our friend Luke. Who had a very personal situation going on because he himself almost drowned as a result to these.

William Dodge: And what it had not been for a bystander being there. ~So, um, ~So, um, we ended up finishing that project, 56 cents a square foot,~ um,~ ended up winning an AI North Carolina Merit Award, won 2,~ um,~ American Planning Association Awards, won the ~Raleigh City. Um, ~City of Raleigh Medal of Arts, which is typically a Lifetime Achievement Award, but that was, it's never been given to a project before ours in 40 years.

William Dodge: ~Um, ~but it was awarded that and,~ um,~ was nominated for,~ um,~ International Public Art Prize. And then [00:34:00] actually, we just found out that Google just gave us an award. That's not officially announced until,~ um,~ probably Friday, but by the time this gets out, it will. Officially come out. I guess there's a Google Earth doesn't awards program where they seek out projects that are seeking to do ~kind of ~environmental or social.

William Dodge: Good using their systems, ~kind of ~it's kind of global impact for good award and then architects newspaper and our project to edit editors for best landscape project America, which is a 50, 000 project, which is cool. Because,~ like, you see, like. ~Karen Timberlake's Paulson Center, which is a super badass building, by the way, ~but it was on the, uh, uh,~ it was on, and my friend Richard designed it, it's amazing, but that's a 2 billion project or something like that, and it's on the same list, and then we see,~ like,~ OMA's, Museum, it's on the same list.

William Dodge: Our project's 56 cents a square foot, and I think that ~is~ actually,~ um, Kind of ~goes back to ~kind of ~all the things I was talking about earlier about being authentic, hustling, trying to figure out a way to ~kind of ~reimagine how things could be. A lot of times people think the great design has to cost more [00:35:00] money.

William Dodge: It doesn't. There's a lot you can do with just kind of creative thing in light, shadow, and ~kind of, you know, ~really ~kind of ~mundane materials, but it's how you use them. And I feel like that is the case when it comes to your career too. It's not like you don't necessarily have to go to the fanciest school or anything like that.

William Dodge: And it's really. How,~ um,~ it's really, ~you know, ~what you do with what you have, and,~ um, you know, ~it's like, we try to put ourselves in situations to be able to, ~you know, ~do the best we can for our communities and be conscious and be good people and do good work and ~make, ~make the work attainable. ~You know, ~I think that's ~the biggest~ 1 of the biggest problems in design is we think of design as a luxury.

William Dodge: It really honestly should be a right. ~Um, ~and ~it's. It's, you know, and, and it's, I don't,~ I'm not like hating on the American system, but, and it happens everywhere, by the way,~ I can get a, ~you can get a most beautiful place on the earth and somebody's bitching about how terrible it is, ~you know, So,~

William Dodge: ~uh, ~but,~ uh, ~you know, when, and in the United States in particular, we really think about quantity, not quality, and,~ uh,~ I think that's something that's really holding our industry back.

William Dodge: ~Um, ~but oh my man, [00:36:00] again,~ I,~ I never really wanted to be an architect. I really wanted to be really incredible architecture and,~ um,~ it's funny actually, I shouldn't mention when,~ um,~ I'm not sure if you'll believe this when I take it out,~ but,~ but when my,~ uh,~ I started seeing my girlfriend,~ um,~ she was like, Oh, my father's an architect.

William Dodge: He was. He was like a big deal architect at Albert Conn in Detroit, and he's amazing. He's really wonderful. And,~ uh,~ he had one role and it was like, you will not become, nor will you date or get involved with an architect. And,~ uh, uh,~ so when I quit my job to go out on my own, she said,~ um,~ congratulations, dad, now your greatest fears have come true.

William Dodge: I'm now dating an unemployed architect and that's a correction. Unemployed pretend architect. There is a difference. ~So, um, ~yeah, ~it's, ~it's interesting, but ~it's, ~it's all about your perspective. I think it's kind of, that's ~kind of ~how I live my life is ~kind of ~framing perspectives and also reframing them both my own and other people and,~ um,~ how to do more with less.

William Dodge: And I should also mention in terms of ~like, kind of ~in the same strategies in which we did this 50, 000 project, doing more with [00:37:00] less, I was able to help one of my clients through my retainer from a strategy standpoint, end up winning a 50 million project in a market in which they didn't operate. Through our situation, it was a higher education project and they had some, but it was more like community college stuff.

William Dodge: And this is a really high profile academic building and a major research institution that they wouldn't. It would have never won it without me, and I would have never won it without them, but it was ~kind of ~creating the dots for people to be successful and being able to see the strategy to set the perfect strategy.

William Dodge: And just that project alone is worth my retainer times 10. And they were like, that wasn't the first 6 7 months of being on contract with them. ~Like, ~oh my God,~ why,~ why would we not do this? ~ uh,~ and I remember when I made it, the pitch to them originally, the CEO looked at me and he was like, I've never heard of anything like this before.

William Dodge: And I was like, yeah, ~it's pretty rad. It's a pretty, you know, it's,~ makes sense. If you think about it, there are other industries ~sort of, sort of ~do something like this. And he was like,~ well,~ well, I'm going to ask you a nice question. And I was like, what? He's like, Do I look [00:38:00] like an idiot? And I was like, what?

William Dodge: And he's like, why in the hell would I not hire you? I was like, exactly. ~That's the right, that, ~I wasn't sure that this was going that direction, but ~that's the right, that is the right, ~that is the right answer. ~Um, ~and,~ uh,~ yeah, ~that's. ~It's funny when I gave them my retainer,~ right,~ they were like, yeah, it's great.

William Dodge: You should ask for more money next time. I was like, well, you can pay me. No, no, no, no, man.~ No, no, no, ~We've already come to an agreement. You just think about that for your other clients moving forward. ~Um, ~but yeah, ~it's like, I was~ my entire career, whether it's as a principal at a firm or in my own firms or with my own clients or with projects,~ um,~ with direct or indirect clients, like.~ like.~

William Dodge: Somebody's paying me or the community and people that are going to experience it. How do you create this ~in, ~in life? How do you create a situation where there's no winners and losers, but everybody wins? ~And, ~and like in our industry in particular, and you guys focus on that pretty regularly. It's, you know, a lot of these people become super wealthy who own these firms on the sweat and the backs of young design staff that they work, ~you know, ~indiscriminately, ~you know, ~and just abuse.

William Dodge: ~Um, ~I'm super not [00:39:00] interested in being a part of that process,~ um,~ and it's like,~ you know, how. ~How can we create a situation where people get paid the value and really, ~you know, ~feel like they can grow and, ~you know, when, ~when it's time for them to move on, we're happy for them. We're not upset that they're leaving us.

William Dodge: ~You know, ~it's like when I have really great design staff working with me, I hope that they're going to move on because the last thing I want them to do is sit around 20 years from now and be in the same position that they're in now. Because God, that's the worst nightmare for myself. And I wouldn't be doing my job ~right ~if I wasn't encouraging him to explore other things.

Silvia: What do you think helps,~ um,~ unstick people from their hesitations or to,~ um, like, ~take chances, both your clients or people that are trying to pursue their own things. I feel like the architecture industry very much ~so, you know, ~wants to tread very carefully when they make moves a lot of times and then nothing happens.

Architects' Reservation
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William Dodge: Yeah, I mean, I think~ I mean, ~for architecture inherently, we like to think of ourselves as an industry that's like innovative and like creative [00:40:00] and all this stuff. Bullshit. They're like, like bankers and lawyers are significantly more innovative than architects when it comes to doing business. Like the way we bill out, the way we write contracts, the way we've given up all our power and cowering fear to liability,~ um,~ I blame the AIA for a lot of that. ~um, ~and also just the system, the way that we continue to perpetuate that,~ um,~ We try and talk about diversity and we show really diverse faces when we show architecture, but that's total lip service. We really need to be doing more to try and get people involved in the community. From all aspects,~ um, you know, ~I used to be on the ~ACE, um,~ ACE mentors board,~ um,~ and was a mentor for years.

William Dodge: And ~it's,~ it's funny. I was an anti architecture mentor. Actually, I would tell everybody,~ like,~ whatever we do, don't do this. And I started doing it ~when I was an architect, or~ when I was in manufacturing, and,~ uh,~ continued to do that when I went into private practice. And you'd be amazed at how many people have come up to me and be like, I know who you are.

William Dodge: And you're like, you told me not to be an architect. And I was like, [00:41:00] really? And I'm like, I thought you were the biggest jerk. And like, God damn, I should have listened to my guy. He was, he helped me out. And or I have friends, my friend Claire shoe, who actually recommended that I come to this residency.

William Dodge: She was interviewed by Madam architect a couple of years ago. She works at Sanford. She's amazing. I've known her since she was like, 14 and I tried to tell her to ~not ~not become an architect. And,~ uh,~ she was like, bro, that just made me want to do it more. That's like saying, you will not see this boy. You will never see that boy again.

William Dodge: It's like telling ~your, ~your teenage daughter that, of course, they're just going to want to do it more. ~Um, ~and it worked out really well for her. She's amazing. ~Um, ~and she's the one who actually drew those sections of the corn maze, by the way. Which whenever she interviews for a new job, everybody wants to talk to her about it because it's so weird.

William Dodge: They just can't even understand what's going on. but, yeah, in terms of,~ um,~ architecture and in life, I think it's just fear. ~Um, ~I was fortunate. When I was starting my practice,~ um,~ I didn't have anybody else to worry about it. ~Um, ~my [00:42:00] stepdaughter is 26. ~Um, ~and, ~you know, ~I wasn't married anymore. And I had the opportunity where I didn't have anybody else counting on me.

William Dodge: But 1 thing I've learned in life is that there's anyone I can count on. It's myself. ~Um, ~not to say that I'm going to be successful all the time, but I'm going to die trying. Like, if I set my mind to something, and that's all you can really ask yourself is if you're willing to take that risk,~ um,~ and again, like I said, I was in a really unique situation where~ I didn't, ~if I failed, it was entirely on me.

William Dodge: ~I wasn't ruining generations.~ It wasn't ruining generations of people, ~um,~ but,~ um,~ it was still really hard. ~Um, you know, ~for me, ~I had, uh,~ I had gotten really sick,~ um,~ in 2021, ~ um,~ My ex and I,~ um,~ were still very close and she had COVID and I was sure I had COVID,~ um, and,~ but I was, ~it's ~like, hallucinating and,~ uh,~ I was stuck in bed,~ uh,~ for two weeks and I'd started seeing a woman,~ um,~ who's now my partner, my girlfriend, who I know is amazing, ~um.~

William Dodge: And ~I, ~I told Amelia, I was like,~ um, I was like,~ I don't feel right. ~And, ~and I ended up gonna, the doctor and they did a chest ct [00:43:00] or chest ~um, ~x-ray and ~um, ~they found something on my lungs. And then the next day they ~did another chest ct or they~ said, ~we need to,~ we found something on your lungs. We need to do a chest ct.

William Dodge: And so they did that and they called me on Friday and I said, the pulmonologist has rearranged their schedule on Monday. They need to meet you first thing Monday morning. We think you have lung cancer. Yeah, heavy. So I remember thinking there are a few things,~ um,~ I'm not afraid to die, I am worried about who's going to have to handle all my stuff because I've got like an insane amount of,~ um, of, ~I've been collecting art my whole life, I just have just random little knickknacks and stuff and I just, I hate the thought of playing a stepdaughter or somebody having to get burdened with that.

William Dodge: But my biggest regret was never having the guts to start my own practice. And,~ uh,~ it was really interesting cause I thought I would be like afraid to die or something like that. It wasn't it at all. It was really just feeling a missed opportunity. And,~ uh, so when I recovered I, uh, and oh, sorry, I should, I should, I should actually follow up at the end of that story.~

William Dodge: ~I, uh,~ I went to the pulmonologist and I said, good news, bad news, you don't have lung cancer, but you're pneumonius so bad. It's a miracle. You're not dead. ~Like, ~we can't believe that you're [00:44:00] like walking around. And so by the time I ever, and they treated me and ~like ~6 months later, I recovered. And by that time, I had already made a plan to start my own practice because I just, I was, Not gonna live somebody else's dream anymore.

William Dodge: ~Um, ~and you know, I like making other people money just as well as I like doing other projects, but I need to be paid accordingly. ~Um, ~and then that way I'm also able to volunteer my time. I should mention I do a lot of pro bono work because I get paid. Like, a living wage through my other stuff, so I get an opportunity to get back to my community and other things.

William Dodge: ~Um,~ which I think is important and something our industry doesn't do enough. But when I ~was, um, when I ~had to tell my firm that I was leaving was really tough,~ um,~ because we had hired over 40 people in the four years I was there, many of those people, most of those people were either former classmates or colleagues of mine, or they were my clients when I was in manufacturing.

William Dodge: that I had convinced to leave their very comfortable jobs to join me,~ including,~ including one friend,~ um, who, ~he was in the sixties and he'd [00:45:00] only ever worked at one practice in his entire life. That was tough, but also at the end of the day, like everybody was really appreciative of kind of the opportunity.

William Dodge: That I'd given them. ~I have no idea why I'm being joked out by the way, so please don't, don't use this in the video. Um, yeah, I don't, I don't know why.~ Probably because I was just talking about how I almost died. ~Um, but, uh,~ but really,~ um, um, ~creating an opportunity for people to be successful. And giving them a chance to thrive.

William Dodge: And I remember having those conversations with my friends that joined me, and they were like, ~you know, ~William, you got to get into your own thing, man. ~Like, ~we would be holding you back if you didn't. And it's interesting how many people told me that they didn't realize that they were in an abusive relationship with their previous firms, and they just didn't realize it, and then they got out, and then they were really able to understand ~kind of ~what normalcy could look like.

William Dodge: And I like to think ~that ~that firm is still that way. I'm not sure if it is or not. ~Um, ~I ~kind of ~get the feeling that ~they've, they've lost, ~they've continued to grow and I think they've lost a little bit of that, I don't know, that kind of family, small studio. [00:46:00] I mean, when I say family, ~I mean, like, ~I don't mean like the corporate, like you're our family.

William Dodge: I mean, like, we all like play trivia together and take pottery classes and they're like my kids or like my brother and dad, ~you know, um, ~and genuinely love each other. And that's the way life should be. Life's too short to work for the assholes.

William Dodge: I don't know if that helps, but I think there's a serious element of fear, but again, what's the worst that's going to happen, ~you know,~ like to me, the worst that's going to happen is being regretful when I'm old or laying on my deathbed, wishing I had done something different because I've done that and it sucks.

Silvia: Yeah,~ um,~ thank you for sharing all of that. And that's a great reminder, just ~like, ~what would you really regret? And it's hard because when I feel like people get so dedicated with their projects, their work, they throw everything of themselves in it, but then like weeks go by, months go by, and you did a great project for your company that like for the client and it's like you could be proud of it, but also you [00:47:00] spent a lot of your life and time on that.

---

Silvia: Are you Yeah. You only have so much personal and professional capital,~ um,~ to use up. The main thing is about a battery. ~You know, ~how much energy do you want to spend on certain things ~and, ~and,~ uh,~ for other people versus yourself versus your family and it's a balance, ~you know, I'm, ~I'm fortunate that,~ um,~ I was able to recognize that before the end of my life.

William Dodge: And, you know, ~that's, and you, ~you hear all these interviews with palliative care doctors and stuff, you know, all the the things are it's ~like, you know, ~I wish I had traveled more. I wish I had been more involved in my kid's life. I wish I had taken this risk. It's like, why not just do those things, man? And it's ~like, um, you know, ~I'm in an artist residency in France right now, specifically focused on public art.

William Dodge: And,~ uh, You know, ~that's the kind of thing that a lot of people wait until they're, ~you know, ~40, 50 years in their career and they're like, okay, I'm going to retire. I'm going to do this now. It's like, why not do that when you have the chance to really enjoy it? ~Um, ~and I should mention actually, so ~I'm, ~I'm working, I'm helping teach a class.

William Dodge: ~I mean, it's like. ~My friend Sandra [00:48:00] Valentino is the main professor and he's amazing. He's won the world architecture there from Valentino Architects has won a world architecture award and he's on the jury for the architecture review and all this stuff. He's a super rock star, but he's a Maltese architect that I've become friends with.

William Dodge: And we've worked together and,~ uh, and, uh, I, uh, ~I was at a dinner party or a kind of rooftop party at ~like ~three in the morning in Malta. And I ended up. Because this is how I,~ I, ~I generate business. This is how I live my life. ~Like, I'm just as, ~I'm just as likely to meet a client, potential client at a bar in Guadalajara, Mexico.

William Dodge: It's, I'm sitting around with my hometown. ~Right. You know, ~it's just people that are doing interesting things. You've got to go and ~kind of ~get out there. You can't wait for them to be. And,~ uh,~ so I was at this party and ended up meeting somebody from an Italian NGO that specifically works with migrants.

William Dodge: And so we started talking about in the Mediterranean migrant crisis. ~And, ~And, you know,~ what, ~what are there some potential design situations that might be able to help some of these things? And mentioned it to ~my, ~my buddy, Sandra,~ um,~ and we, he teaches a class every year. ~So, ~we basically decided to make~ make that ~the [00:49:00] student project to re, evaluate ~kind of ~the whole system and framework and about,~ um,~ like, how migrant camps happen, how, ~you know, ~there can be job training and kind of.

William Dodge: And creating this system for people to be successful and not necessarily creating an internship situation where or an internment camp right now. ~Um, you know, ~it's like, how can we use design strategies to create a better life for these people that have already been through such a horrific experience?

William Dodge: And so ~he was,~ we were teaching this class the last semester, and actually, we're trying to do a public art project that's calling attention to. Kind of really radically,~ um, um, ~needed,~ uh,~ a subject to be talked about. ~Um, ~but that is all pro bono and ~like ~all that stuff's funded through his architecture work.

William Dodge: And my work is doing strategy and it's like, ~you know, ~how can we ~kind of. You know, ~spend time as designers to start thinking about things like, but, for me, ~ um,~ I had somebody asked me one time they were like, well, how do you find your clients? It's like a go interesting place to show up and talk to people and they were like, [00:50:00] what?

William Dodge: And I was like, it's amazing how if you show up and talk to people. ~What can, ~what can happen? ~ um, ~you know, people have all these, ~you know, all these ~ideas. They're like, well, what's your business plan? ~I mean, ~I can make a plan. It's not going to be real. ~Um, ~by the time we get a couple of months into it, it's going to have changed radically.

William Dodge: ~Um, you know, ~I can make, I could make a smart ass and say my business plan is to find a giant sack of money in the red, but I don't think that's going to work out. ~Um, ~but it's just as likely as me making a more detailed business plan too as well. ~Um, ~but the reality is if you show up, you talk to people, you're authentic,~ uh,~ and be yourself, you work hard and you try and do right by people and do good work the best that you can.

William Dodge: It may not be the best work, but the best that you're able to do. ~Um, ~people will appreciate that and you'll find good clients. ~I, I, ~gave this lecture at Clemson once and I always said, you know, always be yourself, no matter. ~You know, ~no matter what, it's~ like,~ unless you're an asshole and then don't be, because I think that's important, but I do think authenticity is really important because people are going to find out eventually,~ and, and,~ and I'm not saying you need to,~ um,~ that people hide their true selves from the clients, but a lot of times that people are worried that what ~you know, ~[00:51:00] people might judge them or whatever, but, I feel like they're not necessarily authentic to themselves, and I think that's really something that we need to do a better job trying to give permit permission to people to fail because that's not the end of the

William Dodge: world.

William Dodge: ~You know, ~we're kind of. World's Best Mindset in America, the Participation Trophies and all that stuff. It's okay to fail. It's okay to not be the best. But,~ um,~ actually I've got a really interesting story. My girlfriend, she was an All American swimmer in Wisconsin when she was in school. And,~ um,~ she had a roommate who was a pretty good swimmer, but she was certainly not one of the best swimmers.

William Dodge: And she was like the backup to the backup to the backup. Gwen Jorgensen is her name. ~And, uh,~ and she was like that on the Wisconsin swimming team and the Wisconsin,~ um,~ Track team. She was never the starter. She would only go if something like basically everybody else got in a bus wreck or something and she would, she would be the one that would go.~ Um, ~but no, ~I'm not,~ I'm joking. She was still pretty good, but she was certainly not one of the rock stars. ~Well, ~fast forward and they graduate. ~Um, ~[00:52:00] and this woman Glenn, she was working at Ernst Young. She was like 25, 26 years old and she was like a CPA. And she gets a call from the U. S. Olympic Committee.

William Dodge: And they say, is this Gwen Jorgensen? And she said, Yeah, And I said, well, you know, this is so and so from the U. S. Olympic Committee. And she was like, ~I don't,~ I'm not the one you want to talk to. And she was like, I don't know if you know this. I was not the best. There was like 20 other swimmers on the team.

William Dodge: And they were like, no, no, no. You ran track and you swam, right? She said, yeah, but I wasn't that good. And I said, no, no, no. We can teach any idiot how to ride a bike. We want you to be trained for us for the U. S. triathlon. And she was like, no, ~you know. ~And the U. S. had not competed in a triathlon in years, and they convinced her, she trained, she tried out, and she won the gold medal in Rio.

William Dodge: *And it's like, how do you take *~*your, kind of, *~*your talents? You may not be the best at one thing here or that thing there, but if you frame them in a very specific situation, you're *[00:53:00] *better than anyone in the world. And the trick *~* *~*is is you just got to figure out what that is. *~*That's*~

Silvia: ~that figures out~

Silvia: ~what the ~

William Dodge: ~that's like totally like a made for TV type movie, but I swear to God it's true. Like, I'll send you the, uh, I'll send you the link about it. It's wild. Sorry, what were you saying? ~

Silvia: ~No, I hope Netflix does make that into a movie. But also, ~ are you the guy that figures out that,~ like,~ arrangement then? ~Like, ~the U. S. National Committee,~ like,~ that was like, you should do this. Like, you have the foresight to see where people could fit in and make this,~ like,~ even better.

William Dodge: Yeah, it's actually a really interesting analogy. I was certainly not involved in that decision, but yeah. ~But Yeah, so my, my, ~I guess in business they call it being able to see around corners and ~kind of ~see what's coming next. ~Um, ~and. That's my biggest, probably my biggest strength, other than my just willingness to show up and talk to people and fail miserably and be okay, be totally okay with that,~ um,~ is ~kind of ~seeing, ~you know, ~these people should know this people that should know this people and there's this kind of project that should come out and ~that, that, ~that I do that I've made people millions of dollars ~doing that~ throughout my career~ and it's like, ~and now I've ~kind of ~figured out a situation where, Okay.

William Dodge: I can figure out how to monetize that for myself, which affords me the [00:54:00] opportunity to be able to meet more and more people that creates other opportunities for me to be able to do nonprofit or pro bono work or connect XYZ NGO that really needs help with so and so architect that's looking to do some really interesting, cool project, and then that community benefits, and I don't necessarily get paid for that, but Thank you.

William Dodge: That's not what I'm doing it for. It's like I'm doing it to try and do right by people. ~Um, ~but yes, so to answer your question, yeah, more or less, that's actually a really good way, but whether that would have never thought ~that ~that's funny

Silvia: Yeah, very cool. And then I feel like there were so many good like advice,~ um,~ for anybody, you know, like be fearless with your, with failing and then ~like, um, ~showing up willingly and like doing the hard work. ~Uh, ~those are all great.

William Dodge: and being resilient ~to, I ~mean, like, this is coming from a dude that applied to school four times before and then they kick me out twice and I still managed to graduate and now they ask me for money and I [00:55:00] understand. ~It's, ~it's funny. ~It's,~ but like, you gotta be willing ~to, like,~ if you really want something, go get it.

William Dodge: Don't,~ like,~ bitch and complain and wish that things were different. Make them different.

Silvia: Yeah. What is that first step that you generally take to just like when you go after something?

First Steps
---

William Dodge: ~Um, I, I guess, ~I guess it really depends on,~ um, I guess, ~for me, I think it would be, like, some self reflection about ~what ~What it is that I want to do, why I want to do it, how I'm going to do it. ~Um, ~and then fortunately, I've made a career through whether it's just growing up with people and being authentic my whole life, or, ~you know, ~having a practice where I've hired people and I tell them it's going to be cool and we're going to do this, or this is going to suck for six months, but it's going to be amazing after that.

William Dodge: ~ I try if you know, ~I always do everything I can to make those things a reality. ~Um, ~so people what it's amazing how rare that is actually,~ um,~ that people do that. And it's not that I'm patting myself on the back. It's actually more critique on our society. but,~ uh,~ [00:56:00] I've found myself in a situation where people.

William Dodge: feel like they can trust me and count on me. So if there's an opportunity that I see,~ um,~ I can reach out to,~ um,~ to people and help connect the dots where again, we're the simple winners and losers, but everybody wins. The client, the design team, the community, the users, everyone,~ um,~ environmental stuff, ~you know, ~whatever.

Silvia: Yeah, that sounds great. ~Yeah,~ I can see that where, like, when everybody wins, you, there's no ulterior motives,~ like,~ you don't have to worry, like, second guess things, you could just be, like, everyone can be fully present in that situation.

William Dodge: Yeah. And ~it's like, ~again, it's like not, And maybe that's just the, I don't know, I feel like maybe that's just the region that I grew up in. Architects in general are really supportive of one another. ~Um,~ and sometimes like in other markets, like I'm in North Carolina, but other markets, people can be like, really like kind of backstabby or get really upset, ~like ~so and so wins a project,~ like,~ man, if I lose a project with somebody who's really great, good for them.

William Dodge: That's [00:57:00] awesome. Everybody wins when great architecture gets built. ~Like, ~cool. If I lose to somebody who's going to do a terrible job, that's a gut punch. ~Like, that's, ~that's the worst. But,~ um, you know you know, ~for me, it's. ~You know, why, why, ~why does there have to be a winner and loser? It doesn't, and I don't know why we operate that way, and that's just our industry, and it's really a shame, and ~it's, ~you can make the same argument for the architect general contractor client relationship too, it's ~like, ~man, really great buildings only happen when you've got an incredible team.

William Dodge: Like the designer, the architect, the GC, the plumbing engineer, the grading contractor, like everybody's got to be on a great team to make something really amazing happen. And if you,~ um,~ you have an adversary relationship,~ um,~ then ~there is, ~there is literally no winner in that situation.

William Dodge: And, but I find ourselves,~ um,~ as an industry in that situation pretty often.

Silvia: ~Uh, thank ~

William Dodge: ~I cried earlier, by the way. ~

Silvia: ~No, No, unexpected. Like, uh, I've had a lot going on in the past few years. And like, um, but now it's like, man, like, like give you an example.~ Like ~my, ~my buddy, he worked at the same firm since he graduated from college. He worked there for 39 years and he gave that up to come and join me.

William Dodge: in my practice because I told him it was going to be cool [00:58:00] and we were going to do good work and we were he was going to be valued and then I, left 18 months later. That was a really tough conversation. Um, so anyway, yeah, sorry. I'm not

William Dodge: like a super like, super like, crying person all the time, but I do very much want my emotions on the sleeve, so,

Silvia: yeah, no, I

Silvia: think it

Silvia: just goes to show how deeply you value your relationships and the people that put their trust in you. Yeah, no, uh, I, I can cut that out, we can just,

William Dodge: Whatever, whatever you wanna do. It doesn't matter to me, like, uh, like, oh, look, look at,

William Dodge: look at William. He's crying on this podcast, ~but I, ~I didn't even talk about,~ um, ~Jake's grandfather stuff, but the, uh, like briefly just,

William Dodge: for you, I mean, whether he uses for a podcast or not, but like. And in 2016, I ended up in a really weird situation.

William Dodge: There's actually a PBS documentary about it, by the way. ~Um, ~I ended up in this really weird situation where I got invited to the warehouse of this deceased [00:59:00] little men artist. and I looked at, I was like, I don't know, man. I was like, you know, like looked at all this stuff. I'm like, this is not good. I'm super not interested in this.

William Dodge: ~And, um,~ but I got convinced 1 of my, 1 of my best friends,~ uh,~ 1st architect they ever worked for. Actually, he taught me a lot of the lessons. He's the 1 that taught me a lot of lessons that I try to live by. And he's not. A design architect is very much a service oriented architect, who's one of the best designers I know, but I mean, it's the type of projects he works on.

William Dodge: It doesn't necessarily get his chance to show it in the way that architects typically value, but it's taught me everything about architecture in business ~ um,~ but he was like, oh, man, I don't know. I've heard that this guy's work is really great. I was like, okay. I'll go. And so ~my, ~my ex and my buddy Craig and I, we go to this warehouse and we didn't know what to expect.

William Dodge: And we show up and we walk in the door and then basically there was an artist who had died of a tragic bicycle accident 16 years before. There was a storage warehouse of all his work that [01:00:00] his wife tried to find homes for, but it literally was thousands of paintings and drawings and she just was not capable of doing that.

William Dodge: And she had a really bad battle with cancer and just died. And,~ um,~ they were going to tear the warehouse down, so they had to get everything out. ~Um, ~not these people, but the people that own the warehouse storage company were going to tear it down. but, so we went to this kind of really cryptic map.

William Dodge: ~It wasn't even on the,~ it wasn't even on a map. It was like, here's the GPS coordinates. It was kind of sketchy. And we showed up, and we walked in this warehouse, and no bullshit. It was like walking into an entirely intact Egyptian tomb with beautiful artifacts like everywhere and somebody going, please God, take them because we don't know what else to do with them.

William Dodge: They're going to end up in the trash of the lot. And it was Jake's cousins who were In the process of trying to find homes for their father's work because they didn't have, ~they did not have ~the ability to do so,~ um, ~and it ultimately turned into this really long and elaborate,~ um,~ project called the Vernon Pratt Project, where we help facilitate, we help them give paintings [01:01:00] away and facilitate the donations of different paintings and,~ um,~ Ultimately have been going around giving paintings away to different museums and institutions for the last eight years now.

William Dodge: ~It's wild. Um, ~which is pretty wild. And through that, I've met different museum directors, different curators, just really awesome people. Some of the best people I've ever met in the world that I would have never met. Otherwise, and I should say that we were not interested in taking this whole collection, we helped to facilitate them giving most of it away, but at the very end, his daughter, Jake's cousin, Trinity, started crying, and she was like, I don't know what to do, all of my dad's work is going to end up in the trash, and I just could not bear the thought of somebody else's legacy going in the trash.

William Dodge: And so I told her we would take it and figure out what to do with it. And not because there was any sort of personal gain, but because it was the right thing to do. And,~ uh, that's, uh,~ that actually is a really interesting. That's kind of how I live with my business, et cetera,~ like,~ and personal [01:02:00] relationships.

William Dodge: ~Um, ~but that's how I met that really weird thing. And,~ um,~ actually, ~I'm the link~ on my LinkedIn page. There's a black and white,~ um, like, ~background and that's actually a painting that Jake owns that's in Nashville right now. That's 1 of my favorite findings that his grandfather ever did. And I should mention that his grandfather was a big deal artist, like, collaborated with Sol LeWitt, was written up in the New York Times, had a one minute show at the North County Divorce, exhibited all over the world.

William Dodge: was the head of art and design at Duke University, and no one has ever heard of him. It's really wild. ~Like, ~he died before, like, the internet took off, and he didn't really digitize any of his work. He never sold any of his work, because he was doing such paintings of such monumental scale, that,~ um, like, ~there's one painting that he did that's 1, 534 square feet.

William Dodge: It's done in 256 panels. It's a math equation. It's a permutation, and he did it and put it in boxes, and he never actually saw them assembled before he died. And we showed it for the very first time at NC State's Greg Museum of Art and Design, and that's actually what this [01:03:00] PBS documentary is about.

William Dodge: , it's pretty wild,~ like,~ to think about, but,~ like, it's been, um,~ it's been a journey. And,~ like,~ I think that whole process helped facilitate some of these other things too, as well, because I started to see things, and ~I really, ~how things could come together,~ um,~ in unique and totally unexpected ways.

Silvia: ~Yeah,~

William Dodge: ~I don't, I don't know if this is good or bad or what, but you've got something you can work with here because it's. yeah, my girlfriend was like, did you call it tangents? You're really good at that. You really could just talk about nothing for a thousand hours. and I was like, sure. yeah.~

Silvia: ~Yeah,~ the story is great, and I think at the end when you were saying how,~ um,~ the reason you did this,~ like,~ was because you couldn't bear to,~ like,~ see the life's work just end up in the trash,~ like,~ that being the core of,~ like,~ what you're about, like, that's a great story to describe that.

William Dodge: sure. yeah, it's interesting. ~There's, um, ~ I'll actually, I'll send you a link to the documentary and to the article about Glenn Jorgensen. ~Um, ~cause ~like, ~to me, that's like the perfect example of like funger. I don't know, the risk of sounding like a motivational speaker,~ like,~ your superpower or whatever, but find, like, the thing, like, you're good, everybody is good at one or two things, like, it doesn't matter what it is.

William Dodge: ~Somebody is better at that than ~ Somebody is better than, you know, at one thing than anyone else. And it's like, how can you take that and what you enjoy and frame [01:04:00] it in a way in which you, can do. what you can do. ~Like, ~I'm really great at helping people grow businesses, win work, try to do better work, and build community.

William Dodge: That's what I do. So that's why I try to do that.

William Dodge: for a living.

Silvia: Yeah, awesome. Thank you so much for this conversation. ~Uh, sorry it ran over. I hope you don't have to get to anything.~

William Dodge: ~No, I'm sorry that I talked your ear off. Um, literally. Uh, ~

Silvia: ~No, it's my job to let you talk and just like, like, I think I like that because you authentically just share like the important parts to you and we get to learn more about you in that way.~

William Dodge: ~yeah. Okay. Well, good. That makes me feel better for just rambling on for the last hour and a half. ~

Silvia: ~No,~

Silvia: ~that is the point of tangents.~

William Dodge: ~Yeah.~ Thank you so much for your time. ~And hopefully this is useful and. You know, let me know if there's any clarification or anything else you need, but I'll, ~I'll for sure send you those two little,~ um,~ links.

William Dodge: That documentary is only 16 minutes long,

William Dodge: so it's worth, it's really, it's actually really worth seeing, and Jake's seen it, and ~it's, um,~ his grandfather, I think, one day will be recognized as,~ uh,~ in the same vein ~as, ~as Sol Lewitt, or Eddie Warhol, or Jackson Pollock,~ so, ~

Silvia: ~That's ~

William Dodge: ~um, they just, the world just doesn't know him yet. ~

Silvia: ~Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much. Take ~

Silvia: ~care. ~

William Dodge: ~Thank you so much. Take care. See you. Bye. ~

Silvia: ~Bye.~

Erin: Hey everyone. It's Erin from out of Architecture. If you find these stories inspiring and are looking for guidance, clarity, or just need someone to talk to about where you are in your career, please know that we offer 30 minute consultations to talk about what may be next for you. If you're interested, head to out of architecture.com/scheduling to book some time with us.

Jake: Hey everyone. It's Jake from Out of Architecture. We love hearing your stories, but we know there's [01:05:00] more out there that we've still yet to experience. If you or someone you know would be a good fit for the podcast and has a story about taking their architecture skills beyond the bounds of traditional practice, we'd love to hear it.

Jake: Send us an email at tangents@outofarchitecture.com.

Silvia: Thanks for listening to our podcast, new episodes every two weeks. See you then