S3 E8: Jill Shah
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Jill Shah: [00:00:00] being a generalist in this kind of industry really helps you because there are so many new things that you have to adapt to and do with every new project and every new day,~ it's,~ it's important for one to be able to like, ~you know, ~switch gears very fast and ~like ~jump from one thing to the next ~like~ without being intimidated by things,

Jill Shah: ~and in fact, it's, it's great that I have those kinds of skills because it just helps me achieve and like, helps me do newer things and not get stuck inside just one single aspect of projects. ~

Jill Shah: If there are people out there who are like me, who are generalists and ~like ~not expert at things, I just want to tell them that there's place for you guys. It's not like everybody's looking for just one skill inside you

Silvia: welcome to Tangents by Out of Architecture. Out of Architecture is a career resource network helping designers apply their incredible talents in untraditional ways. We're highlighting some of our favorite stories from the amazing people we've met along the way. We will hear how they created a unique career path for themselves from the wide variety of skills and talents they developed in and out of architecture.

Silvia: ~Okay. And can you say your name for me?~

Jill Shah: ~Yeah. My name is Jill Shah. Um, yeah,~

Silvia: Our guest today, Jill Shaw production designer at future colossal [00:01:00] shares how she found her strength as a generalist. Assert herself to create opportunities and harnesses, the power of storytelling in design.

Silvia: I love chatting with Jill and hearing how she approached every part of her journey, making the most out of every opportunity. When I meet people who have untraditional paths, I usually ask about those first jobs you get after moving away from architecture, because hearing about those. Jobs where you're trying to get your foot in the door, really show how determined you are to create your, own unique path. I hope you can relate and feel encouraged on your own journey.

Silvia: ~Okay. Uh, ~welcome to Tangents. And the first question we like to ask is how would you describe yourself in three words?

Jill Shah: ~it's,~ it's a tough question, but I wouldn't say,~ um,~ I am driven, curious, and I get really involved.

Silvia: Ooh, can you say a little more about the really involved part?

Jill Shah: ~Um,~ absolutely. I just, sometimes ~it's, ~it's hard for me to detach myself from something that I'm doing at work or related to work. And it just,~ um,~ reflects, Like from the person [00:02:00] I am, ~like, even as a person,~ even if I'm not working, I'm just like, if I'm into something, I really into it. And it's really hard for me to ~like, ~just,~ uh,~ cut off and detach myself from it.

Jill Shah: And sometimes it's a good thing. Sometimes it's a bad thing. So ~it's, ~I try to use it as a good thing most times, but yeah, it's a balance.

Silvia: Yeah, I think a lot of architects can relate to that. ~Like, just like, like full, like not even~ sometimes it's not the demands of the job, right? It's just like you want to do your best. And,~ uh,~ I'm sure we'll hear more about that. I'm looking forward to that. Okay. What is your background in architecture

Jill Shah: So I don't have a very long background in architecture, but I did do my five year degree back in India. And then I worked as an architect for a couple of years. I was freelancing mostly, and I had my own projects that I was working on. couple of them were interior design projects, and a few of them were architecture projects.

Jill Shah: And then I did ~like ~an internship at a really big architecture company back in India. ~Um, ~so all in all, it was like, Six and a half, seven years, I want to say, that I was into that field, [00:03:00] and then I decided to move to the States and ~like, ~switch things up.

Silvia: and what are you up to now? And maybe you can share a little bit about the transition.

Jill Shah: Absolutely. So right now I work as a production designer at this experiential marketing and themed entertainment agency called Future Colossal. It's in New York right now and we design like interactive and immersive experiences and they range from like different industries. We've done stuff in theme parks and we've done experiences for like retail stores and brand marketing.

Jill Shah: But it's always interactive and something on a physical architectural scale. And my transition is,~ uh, uh,~ I think back in India when I was practicing as an architect, I wasn't very satisfied. And even in my days as a student, I knew that I could be good at architecture, but I didn't ever think that I could be really great at it.

Jill Shah: ~Like, ~I ~Uh, ~didn't aim to be one of the star architects or I didn't ever think I'm going to design a famous building in my life or something and outside [00:04:00] of that, base was too slow for me. ~Like I used~ when I was working on my own projects and I was interning at that firm. It's like a project lasts for a year minimum and that it.

Jill Shah: Keeps going on and on depending on how the schedules are, what the project management looks like. So it was just, and I, in general, am a person who likes to keep doing new things as soon as I can. So it wasn't something that was exciting to me. So I was at this crossroads where I did want to move out of architecture, but then my options were limited.

Jill Shah: I didn't know what to do. Because,~ um, ~ ~I, ~a lot of my peers and colleagues, they moved to, ~you know, ~UX, UI design, graphic design and visual stuff. But I reflected back on who I was as a person during my five years of school. And I realized that ~I, ~I was not a person who made pretty sheets or pretty looking presentations.

Jill Shah: I didn't know, like,~ like,~ good color theory. That just wasn't me. But I really enjoyed building models and ~like. ~Doing stuff with hands and if you're making a sculpture ~at my office, uh, like, sorry. ~in the college or something. I [00:05:00] was really like into those kind of things and getting my hands dirty. So I was like, okay, maybe it won't be right for me to conventionally just step into graphic or visual arts.

Jill Shah: That's just not me and didn't feel like something that I could be good at. So I was just browsing and I thought I might do a master's outside of India somewhere and see if that opens up options. And I landed onto this perfect course called MFA in design and technology. It was at Parsons. And I applied for it.

Jill Shah: I got into it, but the moment I started classes, I was like, ~this is, ~this is, I don't know what I'm doing. Like I was super new to programming and the very first class I ever attend, they start teaching, like we had a bootcamp, a three week bootcamp before the classes really started, where they give you a primer of code and like programming and just.

Jill Shah: techy stuff. And I found myself like, really questioning my decision. Am I at the right place? Because I used to run away from computers and now I like, work with them and actually do things with it. So that was a big [00:06:00] struggle, a big gamble, actually. But at some point I was like, okay, if~ if I've, ~I've made this decision, I'm going to stick through it and stay with it and see where it goes.

Jill Shah: So I did what I could. I practiced. I took a lot of different classes that I really liked and like I made it through my master's. And then Future Colossal happened like about two and a half years ago. I first joined them as a freelancer and,~ um,~ I didn't like exactly qualify for the role that they were looking for, but the CEO of the company also transitioned from being an architect to being a creative technologist.

Jill Shah: And he was like, Hey, I resonate with your journey. So how would you like to come on as like our QA tech instead? ~So I,~ so QA tech, basically my job back then was to like test all the games and interactives that other people used to develop, make sure they're up to quality and standards and tested for UX and bugs and this and that, and then release it out to.

Jill Shah: people. So I wasn't really enjoying that. that's not what I wanted to do, but [00:07:00] there were two things which made me take that job. One was that I didn't have other options because I was graduating out of college, sorry, COVID, like right in the middle of COVID. So I didn't really have any other options. And the second reason was that the work ~that ~that company was doing was really exciting.

Jill Shah: And I saw that if, ~you know, ~I prove myself and if I make my place in this company, there's maybe a chance that I can, ~you know, ~be a part of making these things and not just testing it. ~So, um, ~that's my journey. That's how I'm here, ~I guess. Mm hmm.~

Silvia: and I see on your LinkedIn that title Creative Technologist. Can you talk more about that? ~And, ~and so a little more background information because I know people that work in experienced design. And, ~you know, ~one of our first guests this season, Abraham Burickson, he was an experimental designer.

Silvia: And I feel like it. Is so aligned to ~what architects,~ how architects function and think that as a career or ~like ~a job title is like very, or is it the same? ~You know?~

Jill Shah: No. ~Um, ~so creative tech, even when I was first introduced to the [00:08:00] term, I didn't quite understand it. And even if you ask creative technologists, everybody's going to give you a different definition of what they think it is because it's such a wide umbrella. ~Like, ~There's so many things you could fit inside those two words that it's insane like I think like the way I define it and use creative technology is anything where like I'm using tech to uplift my design projects.

Jill Shah: And, ~you know, ~put some character into it. And that tech could be anything. It could be a software. It could be like a hardware or a sensor. And these days it could be generative AI. ~like, ~But like, it's just the idea of leveraging technology as a tool to make your creative pursuits better rather than using tech for tech's sake.

Jill Shah: Which is how I describe creative tech and I happen to land in this subset of creative tech, which is very similar, very close to architectural design because I deal with physical spaces and it comes naturally to me, but I know a lot of them like, ~you know, ~moved on to designing experiences on the web for [00:09:00] browsers and screens.

Jill Shah: And there's people who are doing things with,~ um,~ Purely just hardware. They're making new objects and product and industrial design. ~So I do feel ~and sometimes I also feel that like parametric architecture and computational design could also be like facets of creative tech because that's essentially what you're doing.

Jill Shah: You're using algorithms to drive and ~Like, you know, ~make your design decisions for you. So that's what it is for me. ~Um, and it, ~my title, my role, fortunately,~ uh,~ is very exciting. I wouldn't say it's similar to being an architect, like still a lot of the job I do at my role is like, ~you know. So~ looking at plans and making sure things work and designing physical spaces, but it ~doesn't, it's~ never felt like traditional architecture to me because just the notion of it is very different.

Jill Shah: ~Like, ~my focus is not just towards making spaces for people. Now, it's also about making spaces for the technology itself. Like,~ Like, you know, ~you know, if ~there's an,~ there's a projection map room, we need to think about spaces where the computers are going to go and where the access panels are going [00:10:00] to be and things like that.

Jill Shah: ~So. It's a, ~it's a different world of space design. I think it's ~more, it's~ faster, it's paced more, and I think I enjoy it more than that. So in that sense, I would differentiate it from architecture, but it's very similar, very close.

Silvia: Yeah, it does sound very similar. Like when you're saying where do all the computers go? It's like trying to do a reflected ceiling plan and make sure that all the devices end up there connected and not overlapping lights. ~Like, ~it's the same like things that you have to coordinate in your head in a

Silvia: ~way, right?~

Jill Shah: Absolutely. ~like, ~And like, you learn to optimize spaces ~like, Uh, ~for not just people, but you start optimizing it for the technology that you're using so that you can maximize user experience, ~I guess, um, ~that's the trick here. And that's a lot of what I do, actually, along with sometimes, ~you know, ~scenic design trickles in and there's like a cool prop or a cool object that we're trying to make.

Jill Shah: ~Like, ~for example, I recently worked on a project,~ um,~ for Squid Games, The Trials. It's like an immersive in L. A. right now. And,~ um,~ we made, like,~ like,~ boats that had button controllers in it, and we made a lot of,~ like,~ [00:11:00] games which had physical harvest,~ like,~ physical props and game boards that you can play different games inside.

Jill Shah: So a lot of that is,~ like,~ in built with tech and integrated with technology. ~So, um, ~it's just a fun thing to do and every day I'm doing a new thing. I'm designing a new experience and I guess, yeah,

Silvia: the OOA team, we all got together in New York,~ um,~ and went to the Color Factory and that's ~like ~all experience design. It feels like someone curated all of those different rooms and it was magical. Like, I~ Like,~

Silvia: thoroughly enjoyed just playing around in it. ~And that almost felt like, ~and I think we might have said this while we were all there, that ~like, ~that's ~kind of ~what architects want to do.

Silvia: ~Like, ~that's what we hope we get to do with our

Jill Shah: exactly.

Silvia: And then we end up doing something completely different, buried in drawings or coordination or like project management. So ~I guess, or ~I guess my question is ~kind of like, ~this is. Like all the skills we developed and ~like ~plus the creativity part of it and like making something from an idea that's all there, right?

Silvia: And then,~ um,~ with the creative technologists, you also have to be very much like [00:12:00] a generalist too, right? That's why it's not like a very specific thing. That's why it's so vague. You just use whatever you can to solve the problem.

Jill Shah: Absolutely. it's always with me. It's particularly true because ~like, um, ~I wouldn't say that I'm an expert, any one particular thing. ~Like ~if you ask me, no, ~that ~that's not the answer you're going to get for me. And even at my company, like my team knows that I'm not the person you go to if you want one specific thing.

Jill Shah: But ~like, ~I'm a true generalist in the large sense of things, because I know a lot of things. I know some of everything. And then I'm able to mix those things together and ~like ~come up with ideas. look at things from a larger perspective. ~Like ~that's what I actually also really like about my background in architecture is because it gives us a bird's POV.

Jill Shah: ~Like, you know, ~you can look at things from higher up and make sure like you can figure out instinctively if things are working together or not. That just comes ~when you're,~ when you used to like plan on that scale and then you're planning for smaller spaces, ~I guess, ~which a lot of my colleagues don't quite,~ uh,~ I wouldn't say that they don't [00:13:00] have that point of view, but it's different.

Jill Shah: It's different how I understand things and how they understand things. And I do in some part give credit to my background in architecture. ~Um, but sorry, circling back to the actual question. It's, um, sorry, I'm sorry about that. I lost my face there for a minute. Can you remind me what we were talking about?~

Silvia: ~I don't think there actually even was a question. So, no, it's, it's perfectly fine because~ I think it's just ~like, ~there's so much potential in this space,

Jill Shah: ~yeah,~ yeah, yeah,

Silvia: and it's very exciting. Yeah,~ well,~ actually, you were saying that,~ um, you know, the,~ your background in architecture helped you because you have these two points of view that you can hold like the large scale,~ um,~ bird's eye.

Silvia: And then also you care about those little details, how everything fits together. ~I mean, ~like architects are notorious for just ~like ~caring about the tiniest details as well.

Jill Shah: Yeah.

Silvia: And ~you know, ~what's really exciting that I found that, ~ like,~ I feel like that ability to think at a large,~ uh,~ like very high up and very detailed combined with a startup pace is ~like, ~Just like a playground, right?

Silvia: Because architecture is too slow, but you can really fly with that in a startup environment.

Jill Shah: It's that's one of the things that attracted me to this. It's like, ~ like, you know, ~you are conceptualizing something. It's just on paper, it's scribbles and doodles and like a bunch of words. And then six months later, it's built, it's [00:14:00] done, you see it happen, you see it experience and you grow so much in those six months, because it's like the concept that you came up with and the experience that was built are very different from each other.

Jill Shah: ~Like, ~yeah. They're insanely different, but at the same time, in a short span of six months, it's harder when you're in those six months to see that growth, and it's only when you come out of it, take a step back, you get to learn from your mistakes, you get to be proud about the things you accomplish. ~So, um, ~that's really exciting.

Jill Shah: And being a generalist in this kind of industry really helps you because there are so many new things that you have to adapt to and do with every new project and every new day,~ it's,~ it's important for one to be able to like, ~you know, ~switch gears very fast and ~like ~jump from one thing to the next without ~like~ Being a without being intimidated by things, so to say.

Jill Shah: ~So, um, it's, ~it's a good way, but I also know a lot of people who reach out to me who come to me asking questions regarding this. And sometimes ~they're, ~they're not very okay or comfortable with being a generalist. They have issues like, Hey, I'm not an expert at anything. And [00:15:00] I'm under confident that I don't know how to go about this.

Jill Shah: And I felt similarly, like a couple years ago. I, when I was looking for jobs was in the market, there was this point where I was like, okay, I know a lot about a lot of different things, but I'm not an expert at something. And that was giving me a sort of imposter syndrome or something, if you can say, but now after working in this industry, I feel like I don't regret that anymore.

Jill Shah: And in fact,~ it's,~ it's great that I have those kinds of skills because it just helps me achieve and ~like, ~helps me do newer things and not get stuck inside just one single aspect of projects. So that's something really exciting to me. And like,~ like, if, ~if there are people out there who are like me, who are generalists and ~like ~not expert at things, I just want to tell them that there's place for you guys.

Jill Shah: It's not like everybody's looking for just one skill inside you. ~So yeah.~

Silvia: Do you have anything that comes to mind,~ um, like ~to help navigate that very vague world of like how to find your place in a career, like ~in a, ~in a job description in a way? [00:16:00] And I say that because ~like, ~I feel similarly that I've developed a lot of skills in the past few years that I can handle a lot of projects, but how do you communicate that to someone looking to hire you?

Silvia: And ~like, ~almost ~like, ~take a chance if ~your job description or~ your experience, your CV doesn't line up to the job description. ~You have to explain,~ you have to very quickly prove yourself in a way that there might not be used to.

Jill Shah: absolutely. ~Uh, what, ~what I ~usually~ like to do and communicate that like I can do a lot of things is ~like, ~first, you gotta sound confident in yourself and like,~ like, uh, ~you cannot be,~ uh,~ doubting your own skills. Because a lot of people make those mistakes. Like when I talk to people, when I talk to current students and somebody comes up to me, they're like, Oh, well, I don't do this well and I don't do that well.

Jill Shah: I'm like, don't focus on those things. Focus on things that you ~do ~do well. And,~ uh,~ make sure that you're like marketing yourself in that way. And the other thing that I really like to do is,~ um, I, ~I talk about projects that challenge me the most because they're also projects that I grew from the most, ~you know, uh, like, ~for example, I was,~ um,~ doing this project.

Jill Shah: [00:17:00] It was with Citibank for a Paralympics campaign. And ~I, ~I knew Python, I could program and I could develop Python to the basics, I could write simple scripts, but the task at hand back then was to like, ~you know, uh, ~device a very,~ um, um, ~device, like a never before done thing and I had to write something with eye tracking, which when you're standing like foot away from a screen, it was a difficult task, like two years ago was not easy without AI and stuff like things were not, ~you know, ~Super ahead two years ago, but I still did that.

Jill Shah: I took my time. I was not very efficient in doing that task, but I learned,~ I learned, ~from resources, I asked mentors and I did that and I managed to make that project happen. And when somebody asked me about, like, how do you deal with new things, that's one of the things that I talk about, that, hey, there's all these resources out there and there's all these teams and other people who help you do what you have to do.

Jill Shah: You just have to have faith that you're going to be able to do this. So, I guess, sounding confident, talking about the projects that challenge you and how [00:18:00] you grew from them are two things that I usually do to, like,~ like,~ make people aware that I'm capable of handling multiple things or,~ like, you know, ~doing different things.

Silvia: can think about experiences both as an architect and then just like in the tech space where I think back to ~like ~what I had to deal with and like getting through to the other end. ~like, ~So if someone's like, Oh, can you do this? And I'm like, It's not like bragging. It's because of what I've been through, I'm confident that I will figure out a solution.

Silvia: And then ~like, ~I like that. Like you're speaking from your own confidence because you worked so hard on things.

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Jill Shah: That makes a lot of sense. And also, sometimes, ~you know, ~there are chances where just because of the breadth of knowledge you have, you know what needs to be done. ~Like, ~you can connect the dot, ~you know, ~the steps of. Something that needs to be done where you don't know something might be how you do it.

Jill Shah: And that's where I feel like you can start talking about resources where, okay, hey, I have these contexts. I can put you in touch with these people on how to do it. Or [00:19:00] like somebody who is expert at this one particular step out of your multi-step project and they can help you do that. But I feel just having.

Jill Shah: A general broad idea of how and what something needs, to happen for something to be done is a great skill by itself. And that only comes with having a breadth of knowledge. You know, you can't,~ You know, um,~ confidently devise a plan or devise a project if you don't know everything about a lot of things.

Jill Shah: So I guess that's where it comes from. You just read a lot and you look out for people and you talk to a lot of people and gather knowledge, gather information and store it somewhere in your brain and it just comes out when it has to.

Silvia: Yeah, ~I mean, ~pretty much. What would you say are like the skills that you, through all the different situations and like the different projects, what do you usually find that you fall back on,~ like,~ as like strong things to help carry it through? And that's a very big question. But as an example, like I try to over communicate and make sure [00:20:00] like the ball's not in my court that I keep like pushing to move things along ~like.~

Silvia: And being like a little too organized. So like, when I don't know what to do, I ~kind of ~fall back on that. So I'm curious what your like, strong skills are.

Special Skills that can easily adapt with different Situations and Projects
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Jill Shah: I am really good at being nosy. I want to know things that I have no business knowing. So ~like, ~if there's any project going on in the office and I'm not like directly,~ uh,~ on that project, I'm not even working for it, but I still want to know what's happening. So I'm going to try to sneak into meetings and I'll talk to all the project managers and I'll talk to all the developers and like constantly keep asking questions where they're not needed.

Jill Shah: And people have by now, my teammates have realized ~that ~that's how I work. So they encourage that nobody is like pushing me away or ~nobody tends to like, you know, um, ~nobody greets me with negativity in the sense that, hey, please stay out of this. That's never the answer. They like, they know that if I'm doing this, it's going to help them in some way or another.

Jill Shah: So if I'm being nosy on a project that I am on, and like,~ like, ~there's a meeting between the [00:21:00] project managers or between the developers, I'm a designer, so I'm still like separate from them. But ~so.~ If I know what's happening, what problems they're going through, from just my perspective, ~you know, ~you can pitch in, you can give in solutions, and maybe it fixes their problems, or maybe it doesn't, and maybe something I say is so horribly wrong, it actually gives them another idea.

Jill Shah: I just feel like Talking and wanting to know about everything that's happening around me is a skill that I'm really good at, but ~it, it's all,~ it has almost always helped me in a lot of ways. So yeah, I'm not going to stop being nosy anytime soon.

Silvia: We must be very similar. ~Like, ~Like, I love that too. ~Like, ~and especially in,~ um,~ organizations like companies, jobs, groups that promote,~ uh,~ transparency and like freely asking questions. It's not always the case. And ~like, ~sometimes people are like, don't worry about it, ~you know, ~like ~kind of ~shut you down, but places where you are encouraged to be nosy and ask questions and provide solutions.

Silvia: And that's valued. I feel like. That's a great environment. Like I'll dig into documents or like~ like ~dig around [00:22:00] projects and it's a great way to keep growing and figure, connect the dots.

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Jill Shah: And sometimes it's also more,~ uh,~ it also becomes important to like, as when you said you like go into documents and look at things, it's always nice to go back to your own projects or your own work that you've put out in the past and be inspired or like~ like ~learn from that because you mature as a creative professional in a very short time.

Jill Shah: Like who I was six months ago. I'm not the same person right now because. So much has happened in those six months. And so to be able to grow from your own mistakes is also a skill that I would like, ~you know, ~you know, use to fall back on, or as one of my strengths that if I'm stuck somewhere, I'm like, Hey, I did this once, it went horribly wrong.

Jill Shah: So let's not do that again. Let's not repeat the same mistakes, ~I guess. ~So that's also one thing that people can use to ~like ~fall back and use as a strength, if they're in situations that.

Silvia: And then,~ uh,~ can you,~ uh,~ share a little about what your week or days might look [00:23:00] like if people are looking to transition out of architecture and just ~kind of like, what, ~what is this? ~Like ~if they see like postings or things like that.

Jill Shah: Absolutely. ~Uh, ~just talking about experience design and like interactive, immersive installations. My day to day usually looks like, ~you know, ~there's,~ um,~ client meetings, you hop ~on ~on pitch calls and you talk to people, understand and listen to what they want and then come up with concepts and concepting and brainstorming.

Jill Shah: Basically just looks like he's sitting down on either a software which allows you to collect ideas or pen and paper or even just soft boards. You start doodling, you start putting words down and then from there you go on to writing blurbs about experience. And then you start developing UX journeys of ~like, um, ~how you want people to experience this and what needs to happen, what the interaction has to be.

Jill Shah: And from there, my role then like stops in a flux there. And it's taken over by the developers where they then start making all the architecture diagrams of how the application and how the custom software is going [00:24:00] to be made and what are the steps over there. Design comes in and helps figure out the kinks here and there that, hey, what this decision that you're making in the program might affect the UX negatively in this way.

Jill Shah: So let's change it or let's think of another way to do this. And,~ um,~ I am very much like I come back in a very big role when it comes to,~ um,~ designing for installation, like when it's time to actually put things in physical space. ~um, ~how they're going to go, and fabrication, and a lot of drawings making, and a lot of physical fabrication, like have a fab lab in our office, so sometimes I'm also in the wood shop making things, and which gives you a good break from your screens, and sometimes it means talking to other fabricators.

Jill Shah: So ~it's, ~it's a mix of different types of things I do day to day. And sometimes when there's downtime, we are also exploring new softwares. And like right now I'm working on this internal research based AI project where we are looking how generative AI can be utilized in design projects [00:25:00] and experiences.

Jill Shah: So it's,~ it's, ~always a mix of play and some. conventional things that architects are used to doing, like making CAD drawings. I do that time to time.

Silvia: That must be fun to only occasionally do it.

Jill Shah: Yes, it's very occasionally. In fact,~ like,~ is,~ um,~ last September, last year, I picked up AutoCAD after four years. And ~I was, ~I was like, wait, my hands remember this. My brain remembers this. It's like muscle memory. And I,~ I, ~I was like really surprised by my own,~ uh, uh, ~memory of that software. It just came really quick to me.

Jill Shah: In two days, I was using it. Like I was always using it. But it was just really fun to see that, that hey, I've used this after four years.

Silvia: Yeah, I think people, if they're curious, they should ~kind of ~just apply and see if it works out. If you not going, if you don't transition and you don't go down that route, it's nice to just know what else is out there.

Jill Shah: absolutely. And ~like, ~honestly,~ um,~ if you look at a lot of these,~ uh,~ experiential labs, That's what they call themselves [00:26:00] these days. There are a lot of positions open for architects in general. Like~ Like ~if you go on to Rockwell,~ uh,~ Rockwell Group has this,~ um,~ another subset of them. They're called The Lab at Rockwell.

Jill Shah: And they hire architects who work in tandem with programmers and developers to create these kind of experiences. So like,~ like, ~even if you don't want to transition and switch into other fields, there's place for architects in companies like these who are doing experiential because there's just so much scope and like you need perspective and you need eyes from a spatial designer who knows how things are done.

Silvia: Yeah, this is something I would love to see architecture grow into or architects grow into. One of our previous guests said this in a way that like, the future of architecture should be strategy, not just building what your clients want you to build and like putting together the documents set to do that.

Silvia: ~Like ~that's too much of what it's becoming and ~like ~not taking advantage of all the skills that we're picking up along the

Silvia: way.

Jill Shah: that's very true actually. Strategy is like, especially in [00:27:00] experiential, strategy is there at every step of the way, like when you're talking to the client, from when you're concepting to when you're installing, like ~it's, ~it's all about strategy in a lot of ways because you need to constantly think of how this is being perceived.

Jill Shah: And just like you were taught in architecture, right? Anything that you design and build is for the user, is for the people. It's the same exact thing. It's just now you're focusing more on experience or entertainment or ~like, you know, ~marketing or branding something rather than people living or working in those spaces.

Jill Shah: And that shift of utility or like the shift in what this space is being used for creates a lot of difference on how you need to work and like strategy has to step in there, I would say.

Silvia: Can you give some examples of fun projects or memorable projects that you've worked on to like ~kind of, you know, ~give a taste of what that world looks like?

Jill Shah: Yeah, absolutely. ~So, uh, I, ~I would actually talk about my very first project and,~ uh,~ in creative tech industry and also my,~ like,~ my favorite one so far because it was the most fun. So we did this,~ uh,~ [00:28:00] space themed,~ uh,~ playground or like an interactive playground for a retail toy store called Camp in New York.

Jill Shah: And so Camp NYC has this,~ like,~ secret space behind their store. Where they put up experiences and like interactive stuff for kids and families to go in and play into. So this project that we did, it had a bunch of games that kids could go around and play. There were like interactive games, there were controllers or joysticks, there was this other game where there's a wall full of holes and like kids are supposed to throw balls inside the holes and if they successfully throw the balls inside the hole they get scores and stuff and they were being real trying like there was real time tracking system inside the whole space so all the kids had ~like ~a little wristband attached to their hands and Anywhere they'd go in space, they could collect coins and play games and collect scores, and at the end of the experience, they could see how much they scored.

Jill Shah: So this is like a friendly competition if you're, ~if you've~ gone with a group of,~ uh,~ friends or with your family and cousins. [00:29:00] And it was just really nice and heartwarming to see because of how much fun kids had playing those games. One, there was a game called remote rover in which you're driving a rover in the middle of the space on like surface of Mars or something.

Jill Shah: So it's like a little arcade style of game. So little elements like that helped bring this whole big thing alive. And there was like a big giant spaceship in the middle of the interactive, ~which would then, ~which would allow kids to climb into it and then play certain other games inside the spaceship.

Jill Shah: So it's this layered experience. It was just really nice to see because Simple things go a long way, and especially when you're making it for an audience like kids, who just have fun wherever you put them, it's really heartwarming to see,~ um,~ how projects like this can be successful.

Silvia: Yeah, I love that. And I love that there's an ability to dig in more with the user experience than ~like, ~than we get to when we build projects in architecture. I feel like there's a disconnect because what we imagine happens,~ like,~ does it really [00:30:00] happen? And how much do we actually have to get to impact the experience?

Jill Shah: That's one struggle that we still always have, ~you know, ~like in experiential, like, When you're designing experiences and conceptualizing them, what we think that people are going to do and how they're going to react is never true. ~It's, ~it's something completely different. Like the way they use and the way they interact with our technology.

Jill Shah: It never even occurs to us. Because when we're doing it, we know our tools so well, we know the right way to use things. But, a third person who's coming in, who doesn't know anything, and it looks, and it all looks like magic to them, they're going to want to go and poke their fingers in the wrong place, and like,~ like, they're gonna,~ things are gonna break, and things are not gonna work out.

Jill Shah: And that happened with this Cosmic Amp installation as well, like,~ like,~ we didn't know that ~kids could be ~Kids had the power to ~like ~break actual hardware and break industrial grade joysticks by just playing with it because they're like, oh, and they're just so hyper and we never anticipated those things. So it's still a constant challenge and we learn with [00:31:00] every project on like,~ like, ~it's never what you think it will be, and somebody's gonna want to break their experience.

Silvia: That's ~kind of ~fun. You do get to ~kind of ~watch the usage of it, right? And then ~like, ~is there like a retro afterwards, review ~to like, ~to like, what did you learn on the project?

Jill Shah: absolutely. So like,~ like, um, ~maybe not all projects like, but most of the projects that we've done,~ uh,~ have been semi permanent or like at least, you know,~ you know, ~two, three months long and then they move to another place or they've been permanent. So we've been fortunate enough to go back and see how it's being used and how people are interacting with it.

Jill Shah: And internally, we usually have postmortem meetings or like meetings after a project has officially closed. To just gather and discuss and learn from what went right, what went wrong, and what are our next steps as a company from here? Do we want to do more of these projects or do we want to do less of these kind of projects?

Jill Shah: So those conversations start stemming up from Once the project is closed and once we see how it's like doing or did we as a team have fun building [00:32:00] it? And there are a lot of questions we ask each other to go from there.

Silvia: Those are really great questions. I'm glad,~ like,~ like, it's really nice to see ~that ~that happens at the end of a project.

Jill Shah: Yeah

Silvia: ~Uh, I had a question about, let me think, it's like on the tip of my tongue, uh, Or any, anything else that you would really want to share? Oh, actually, sorry, I remember my question, but~ but is there anything else that you, is on your mind to share?

Jill Shah: ~Let me look, I did make some notes about things. things. Um, ~yeah, I did. I thought ~like, um, you know, ~we could maybe talk about just storytelling aspect of things because architecture isn't really known for storytelling or like VR, but it's not ~storytelling ~storytelling. And then a lot of what I do right now is going into narratives and story driven and IP based things.

Jill Shah: ~So, like, ~I think that could be a good topic to talk about.

Silvia: Yeah, I'd love to get into that. ~Like, ~I feel like that's such a strong thing ~of what I, like what, ~to convince people or like to convey ideas. It's all storytelling, right? It's creating a world. Yes, please tell me more about your thoughts.

Jill Shah: ~So, um, ~when I,~ uh,~ transitioned or ~like, you know, ~just joined or moved into this industry. I had a hard time coming out from the architecture mindset that I have a clear list of spaces,~ this, this, ~this, I have to design that. And I have to make sure things like line up and arrange them and plan properly so that it makes [00:33:00] sense.

Jill Shah: Like you can go from, You're living room to the kitchen and then you can go from your bedroom through the living room. ~It's all ~it's all set. It's right there and you can make a visual map. But ~when I started, uh, when I even~ when I started my master's and then when I moved into this industry, a lot of the focus instead wasn't word building.

Jill Shah: It was no longer about like clear cut spaces all ~like, you know, ~laid out and planned next to each other in this. thing that makes sense. It was just about something, doing something weird, doing something funky, something that would like inspire curiosity in people. And curiosity only comes with Good narratives and good storytelling and like ~living,~ leaving cliffhangers and doing experiences where, oh, you're entering a room.

Jill Shah: It's completely dark. What's going to happen next? You don't know. So things like that. And,~ uh,~ it was just this idea of wanting to get into spaces that tell stories and spaces instead that make you live stories. So a lot of what I did,~ um,~ a lot of the projects that I've done here, like, you know, are~ like, you know, ~IP based and.

Jill Shah: Maybe [00:34:00] we took a show, maybe we took a movie, and then we created an experience out of it, like there's a, we didn't do that one, but there's a lot of experiences, like the Harry Potter experience, and the Friends experience, what they do is immerse you into the world of these famous shows, and then you can like, go and see things, and just, it's, be a fan, ~you know, ~but more than that, storytelling goes a step beyond where you're actually immersed in as a character and then you get to play things.

Jill Shah: So ~that's what, ~that's what the,~ uh,~ Squid Games, the trials experience was about. Like you're an actual contestant in the game show and you're being able to play five to six games under that pressure and competing with other people. So ~I, ~I think What has helped me leveraging storytelling into architecture is that I no longer think about,~ um,~ spaces for usability. Instead, I have started thinking about spaces for, ~you know, you know, uh, ~experiences and like,~ like, ~okay, if the wall finishes. black and not green, it's going to inspire certain emotions. And I'm more into this idea of,~ uh,~ architecture can make you feel things. And ~that's what, ~[00:35:00] that's what I'm in the business for. And that automatically is driven by story.

Jill Shah: So using content at the right place, using audio and using visuals. So it's not just built elements, but it's also multi sensory in a lot of ways. ~Like, ~I have to brainstorm and think about,~ uh,~ the speaker should not be placed here, because people are walking in from this side, and the speaker should be behind them, so it looks like somebody's talking to you from the back.

Jill Shah: little minute details and things like that really drive,~ uh,~ experiential storytelling, and it also, they also make up for a good experience in the end. that's something that I really enjoy doing.

Silvia: I think that's a really good example. I say this a few times that like your intention that you put into it, even if someone is not aware of the intention, they can still feel the effects rather than things randomly being placed. But what you said about the speaker is a really good example because you can just ~like ~place them in a grid, ~you know, ~it's a nice clean layout.

Silvia: ~Um, ~but then. Actually, where you hear it,~ the, the, ~the input as you are moving through in time, they [00:36:00] don't need to know that the speaker was placed there for that reason, but they will feel the effect of it.

Jill Shah: Exactly. it's like, it's not about making people instinctively like directly know your intentions. It's about them feeling your intentions behind your design decisions, I guess. And that makes a lot of,~ a lot of, ~difference. Like,~ Like, ~I've been to just a lot of, in general, interactive experiences for myself, just other people's work and experiences to see how things are done.

Jill Shah: Yeah. And what sets apart the good ones from the bad ones for me is that if I'm going in and if it's still magic to me, if the design intent is not like directly visible, but I can feel the design intent, that's what sets it apart, ~I guess.~

Silvia: Yeah,

Jill Shah: know if that makes sense. It's very vague. Yeah.

Silvia: you know how architects love looking at all the details. ~Like ~if you go to ~like ~one of those, ~you know, ~famous places, we'll be looking at like hinges or like textures on the wall and like,~ like, ~literally poking your head in like in every little crack and then be like, oh my gosh, they did this. It's nice when people appreciate it and [00:37:00] recognize it, but I still think that level of detail gives the overall experience like a certain level of tightness or like cleanliness or like warmth, something. So it's kind of~ kind of ~that level of intention and detail.

Jill Shah: There's also something about ~like, you know, uh, ~spaces being able to make you feel like it's magic. ~Like, ~if you don't know how things are done, then you let your brain be free and ~like, ~just wonder about how this was done. Like, just the other day,~ Like, ~I was visiting this,~ um,~ outdoor, public art, interactive public art type of,~ um,~ event happening in New York with my husband and I started getting nitpicky about how this was that and that was done and in ~like ~10 minutes and he was like, Jill, stop.

Jill Shah: Don't tell me all this because this is magic to me. Don't ruin it for me. So ~like, ~You keep your knowledge to you. Let me just look at things and wonder for myself how it was done. And that, I think, makes for a really good experience because then somebody who has a partner who knows ~a lot about ~a lot about these things doesn't really want that knowledge because he wants to keep that magic with himself, ~you know, ~and ~I, ~I think there's [00:38:00] some really good heartwarming quality in there about that, just that little.

Jill Shah: anecdote and just that little emotion that I want to keep this magic alive for myself. And I guess for that magic to be alive, you don't really have to know all the details.

Silvia: Yeah, that's really interesting. I do love seeing how,~ like,~ buildings are made and, like, how they're put together. And once I can see that, I'm like, oh, that's really cool. ~Um, like, ~James Turrell exhibitions,~ like,~ you get the feeling of the light, but then I also like really seeing the knife edge on ~those, like, on the, ~the opening itself, too.

Silvia: But I can see that,~ like,~ for some experiences, you don't want to know how it's done or made. So ~it's, ~it's, So yeah, like in Disney, you don't want to see the behind the scenes

Jill Shah: Exactly.

Silvia: You just want the magic.

Jill Shah: You just want the magic because it's heartwarming. And sometimes you're even, it happens to me, like when I see something which is completely new and out there and I have never done, I still feel like, oh, wow, this is magic. ~Like, ~I don't know how somebody made this or how they program this.

Jill Shah: And,~ uh,~ sometimes I'm like, I [00:39:00] really want to know how they did this. So I'm going to go in and research and like read all about it and ~like ~get all the answers. And then I'll be like, wait, this was so simple. I could have done it or my team could have done it. And then it's not magical enough. And,~ uh,~ that ruins it for me, you know, in a lot of ways.

Jill Shah: So I guess sometimes it's ~like, ~it's okay to not. know everything about something that you really like.

Silvia: I'm actually the same way with movies. Sometimes I need to know the plot to like~ like ~keep watching, and other times I just want to enjoy the movie and ~like ~go along for the ride.

Jill Shah: ~ uh, like, ~I have a partner who watches movie, like three movie reviews before watching any movie because he just wants to go and prep. Then I don't like it. I need to go into movies without seeing any reviews and then I'm going to make my decision for myself. So ~it's, ~it's just, I think different ways of looking at things.

Silvia: Yeah, it is. But I think it is very exciting to be able to be part of the creation of these experiences and places where,~ like,~ you get to take someone on an adventure.

Jill Shah: Yeah.

Silvia: And it sounds like you were able to work on it [00:40:00] more physically, but,~ like,~ this happens with,~ like,~ our last podcast guest was, like, an illustrator.

Silvia: So he's creating these for,~ like, uh, ~TV shows and things

Silvia: like that.

Jill Shah: Yeah. No, absolutely. ~Like, uh, this, ~this thing that you just said, like taking people on an adventure,~ it's,~ it's like talk of the town right now in a lot of ways. And also because people want to pay for those experiences. People want to go out and do new things, ~you know? ~So it's like a, it's like the right time for architects to maybe start thinking about making adventures because the market's ripe for it.

Jill Shah: People really want it. Yeah. Clients and big companies are investing into it experiential and just like interactive marketing and it works because there is audience for it and there's clientele and there's demand for it because adventure and also trust me,~ like,~ working in this industry is an adventure in itself, ~like.~

Jill Shah: It's faster than architecture is, and sometimes it can also like, you can also get burned out very easily, because you're constantly working on short term projects ~back to back, ~back to back without breaks and it can become a lot. ~Um, ~but. [00:41:00] If you're the type of person that I am and likes doing new things every now and ~then, ~then I think you would thrive.

Silvia: Yeah, that's a good point. ~Like, uh, ~fast paced projects,~ like,~ it has the same,~ uh,~ intensity as the deadline. Like,~ Like, ~it's just a shorter one, so you have even more, like,~ like,~ deadlines. And there probably feels just like an architecture office at times.

Jill Shah: It's ~like, ~honestly, to me, it feels more like being in architecture school and not in like professional architecture. Because this kind of stress and this kind of timelines I used to deal with when I was, ~ as well, when I was~ a student back in architecture school, like,~ like,~ okay, you have three months to do this thing and make proper drawings from design to, ~you know,~ Theoretical execution has the same kind of timelines I work with here.

Jill Shah: So the crunch feels similar to that. ~Uh, ~but yeah, it's less number of all nighters.

Silvia: Is there more of a level of control that you have? And actually, it's a very good comparison that you say it's similar to architecture school, because no one's telling you to pull all nighters in architecture school. That just ~kind of ~happens. ~ You know, ~You know, you want to keep designing and working and [00:42:00] building, but,~ um,~ I hear from a lot of people that transition out of traditional architecture that they work hard, just as hard, maybe just as many hours, but at least there are more things under their control, like how they work, what they get to work on in some ways, versus an architect, traditional offices, I think a lot of it is like,~ uh,~ maybe outdated systems or processes that are not changing anytime soon.

Silvia: So even though you have this grind, is there, what helps it become less Or like more rewarding, maybe.

Jill Shah: I think for me personally, what makes us more rewarding is,~ uh,~ being able to see people actually use and interact with the thing that we did. You know, it's that gratification is almost instant. You see it on people's faces that they. are happy in that space. They liked what they're seeing. And that's just, that keeps motivating me to just do more of it.

Jill Shah: And apart from that, like when you're working on it, when I'm in the grind, when I'm in the middle of it, it's just the idea [00:43:00] that, Hey, a lot of people don't enjoy what they're doing. And 90 percent of the times I really enjoy what I'm doing. So that just keeps me going. That keeps me motivated, ~I guess.~

Silvia: Sounds good. And you mentioned earlier that you went to school for an MFA. ~Um, ~what kind of things are out there for people to help ~kind of like ~develop skills or ~kind of, um, uh, uh, ~find opportunities?

---

Jill Shah: Yeah, I think more and more colleges these days are coming up with ~like, you know, ~multidisciplinary courses like the one that I studied in. ITP at NYU, there's this MFA at Parsons, and there's a bunch of other design schools that offer such,~ um,~ wide master's, because it's at that level at master's, they let you choose and curate your own curriculum, right?

Jill Shah: Like all four of my semester, I barely had any mandatory classes, and I could pick and choose from the wide variety of classes that used to happen. ~So, um, ~I would suggest that If you're really sure of what you want to do, then I wouldn't go to [00:44:00] college for that, because there's so many resources outside, especially for the industry I am in, like there's,~ uh,~ shorter courses and certificates and like people who are on the internet who are into sharing their knowledge with you.

Jill Shah: But ~if you're at a,~ if you're at a crossroads and if you're transitioning from architecture or from any other field for that matter, and if you don't know where you want to transition, if you don't know what you want to do, then these courses really help you because they introduce you to these like 10 different things and then you can try it for yourself, low stakes, you're not like risking any actual money, you're not risking any actual.

Jill Shah: ~Uh, ~resources, you get to try multiple different things and then you can decide for yourself, Oh, this is what I really like, and this is where I want to go. So I guess ~it's, ~it's a matter of where you are and how much you know about what you want to do. But ~there's a, ~there's a ton of courses like this out there that help you just foster your design thinking and tech skills.

Jill Shah: If you do want to get into it,

Silvia: And for you, what did you follow [00:45:00] to ~kind of ~like? That eventually became your career journey or the path that you took. Was it,~ like,~ following,~ like,~ creative joy? Or,~ like,~ are you really good at this? Like, how did you connect the dots?

---

Jill Shah: I,~ uh,~ honestly relied heavily on my background in architecture. It was never that I didn't enjoy designing spaces. I really liked it. It was just like, I didn't like what I was doing it for. So when I was doing my master's and I was learning programming and stuff, I would always try to like, ~you know, ~stay away from the screens.

Jill Shah: ~Like I still ~A lot of my peers and my colleagues and like my classmates were going into user interaction design and designing apps and,~ uh,~ for the Web3 and everything. And they did some really good stuff, but none of that excited me. And I, that's just because I was so involved in 3D spaces around me. I never really could.

Jill Shah: Fix it all onto screens on my phone or on my laptop. So I was very sure that this is something that I do not want to do. Outside of this, I was [00:46:00] up for anything. So that's how maybe I like, ~you know, ~saw this coming out of grad school. When I was applying for jobs and like work, I would apply for different positions.

Jill Shah: I was applying for computational design. I was applying for parametric architecture. I was applying to be a creative technologist. Anything that would like, let me use. the programming skills that I'd gathered during the two years in master's and combine it with my knowledge of spaces and my knowledge of designing for actual spaces.

Jill Shah: And I think that's how I was going about it and I'm happy I did that. Yeah,

Silvia: And then you mentioned that you ~kind of ~had that job that got you your foot into the door at Future Colossal and I kind of love asking people like what is that first job transitioning because most of the time it's like a get your foot in the door kind of

Silvia: job and it's~ job and~ there's it's not exactly what you want to do so like what kind of experiences did you have from that or ~like ~was there a moment where you can see that like you ~kind of ~proven yourself [00:47:00] that like you can expand to other areas

Jill Shah: Yeah,~ uh,~ what happened with me was that when I was like freelancing again, I was freelancing as a QA tech for Future Colossal itself. But then those six months when I was still a QA at the company, I never really did any actual QA. I went in with a thought that, hey,~ I want,~ this is my step in. I want to be at this place.

Jill Shah: And I'm going to go in there and do what I like. And I got lucky because,~ um,~ job roles at our company are like not very regulated and very defined. Like people are allowed to go out of their roles and do things that they like and it's appreciated. It's acknowledged and people like it. So I think I got lucky in the sense that,~ um,~ Future Colossal let me be this person.

Jill Shah: But I was doing everything. If I saw any scope that, hey, this is something that I could,~ like,~ take from people and help somebody out, I would go and ask them that, hey, can I do this for you? Hey, can I do that for you? And I just kept taking up little things like [00:48:00] that until there came a point where ~like, uh, ~leadership realized that, okay, she has grown out of her role of QA because she never really did that.

Jill Shah: And she wants to do something more. So then they moved me and I moved teams and,~ um,~ switched to different roles. But I guess I would say that. Nobody's gonna give you what you want, you ~kind of ~kind of have to go and take it and I have always been really good at that, at least when it comes to my career and my profession, that if I want something, I'm unhesitant to ask about it, and most often when I've been asked, I've been said yes,~ like,~ seven times out of 10, I've been said yes, if I asked for something.

Jill Shah: So that's a strategy that works out for me.

Silvia: Yeah, that seven out of ten is great. ~Like, ~you'll get three no's, but you also got ahead seven times.

Jill Shah: Absolutely. ~kind of ~It's kind of like that, once you show that,~ like,~ you have the initiative, you have the ability to complete it,~ like,~ get it done, and ~kind of like ~a little bit of a vision to to create. ~Like, ~those are excellent skills to see.

Jill Shah: Yeah. And ~it's, ~it's just,~ uh,~ if you're a self starter in [00:49:00] general, people are going to notice that people are going to see that and~ , it's,~ people want to use that ability of yours to self start things because everybody is in this, I don't want to use the word race because it's a really wrong word to use.

Jill Shah: Like it's not, we're not all racing against something, but in an industry that is so competitive. In an industry where you have too many options and too many people want to do the same thing, ~kind of ~you kind of have to make your own mark. And when employers, when leadership sees that you are a self starter and you like to do things by yourself, they appreciate that most of the times.

Silvia: Do you have any advice you would give to your younger self,~ like,~ earlier in your career? Anything? ~I mean,~ I love the ambitious,~ like, uh, ~go getting attitude you have, but, ~you know, ~everyone,~ like,~ through the journey of growth,

Jill Shah: Yeah, absolutely. ~Uh, ~there is one big advice that I want to give my younger self, honestly. And I,~ I,~ just think throughout my Professional life, I've ignored it very much, is documentation,~ like,~ I am so occupied in [00:50:00] doing things and then doing the next thing that I never documented,~ like,~ never did good documentation of my work, and then moved on I never considered documentation to be a part of that project.

Jill Shah: It was always an afterthought. It was always something that,~ like, you know, ~I realized, oh shit, I want to publish this here, or ~like, ~I want to write this article and I don't have good pictures of my work. And that's when I realized that I should have done documentation. And it's ~like, ~if pictures don't exist, it didn't happen.

Jill Shah: And that's ~very, ~very true. ~So, um, ~that's one advice that I want to give to my younger self and my present self actually. And it's just funny because like in architecture school all our five years like professors used to say that document your work, make good presentations, ~make good,~ take good pictures, and like they would keep, at least in my program, they Get pushing us students to do better at documentation.

Jill Shah: I just never really got to it.

Silvia: documentation also goes hand in hand with marketing, especially these days, right?

Jill Shah: Absolutely. It goes like it, it goes a long way in marketing and being able to get new [00:51:00] work.

Silvia: And ~I, ~I think, When I think back on like documentation, it's also ~kind of ~a way when, like when I fix my resume and things like that and I look back on it, it's a little polished. I was like, that's something I'm proud of, ~you know, like kind of like ~present packaging your work of it, like to show what you did.

Jill Shah: exactly. And it's also a way for,~ uh,~ to like, I get that with art and design and ~like, ~Creative Endeavors. Nothing is ever really finished. There's always something more that you could do to it, or ~like, you know, ~there's always some more additions you can do to a project, or you can do more experiments with it.

Jill Shah: But doing good documentation, also like psychologically, I think it gives it a stop point, it gives it a finish point. And it makes you feel like, okay, I can move on to the next thing. And like ~you,~ at least I look at it in a way that like, if I managed to do good documentation about something, I allow myself to move on from it and like go to different things because I have a package to talk about it.

Silvia: Yeah, for sure. And then closing question. ~Um, ~what are you looking [00:52:00] forward to in the future? ~And, ~and in any way, professionally or personally?

Jill Shah: I am really looking forward to see, generative AI takes experiential and themed entertainment industry. Like ~it's, ~it's starting up a lot of,~ uh,~ new things around and there's new developments every single day. And I'm not really well versed with it. I try to keep up, but there's so much that it's insane.

Jill Shah: And I just feel like the generation that's coming after me and after us are like people who are going to come into this industry 10 15 years from now. They're going to be equipped with so many more tools than we have at our hands. And I just am excited to see what they do with those tools.

Silvia: Yeah, absolutely. Oh, so many thoughts there, but you are, because the tools exist, but it's still the people that have the vision on how to use it,

Jill Shah: Absolutely. Exactly. And ~like, ~a lot of people argue that ~like, ~AI is going to steal jobs and this and that, and I just feel ~like. ~You just have to know how to use it as a tool and leverage it to do things that machines still can't do and [00:53:00] will never be able to do. ~So, um, ~I am not necessarily very negative about it, but ~I'm, ~I'm skeptical, but I'm also just in general, very excited to see that.

Silvia: Awesome. Thank you so much for this conversation. It was really fun to have.

Jill Shah: Yeah. Thank you so much. I hope it was okay. And I didn't. I don't know.

Jill Shah: I've never done this before. So

Silvia: No, it was great. ~I, ~I love that it was so like,~ uh,~ lots of advice and tips. ~Like, ~not all my conversations go like that. So I, it was really nice. And I hope like our listeners get a lot out of it.

Jill Shah: absolutely. I hope so too. And like,~ like, it's, it's just,~ I ~kind of ~got nervous yesterday because I was listening to all these episodes. And then you've talked to guests and people who are like 10, 15 years into their careers and are founders and directors. And I was like, Hey, I don't have these kinds of credentials.

Jill Shah: It's~ It's like, am I?~ Do I have the authority to, not the authority, but like,~ like, ~am I at a stage where I can even talk to people or ~like ~share my experiences to people on a platform like this? So I did get into that a little bit yesterday, but I,~ I, I, ~I don't know. I tried.

Silvia: No, and actually,~ like,~ thank you [00:54:00] for sharing that,~ like,~ honest,~ uh,~ experience because,~ like,~ that's such a nice snippet because I want to be like, yes, your journey and experience is helpful because we've all been there, right? And I would say you are on the other side of that.

Jill Shah: I don't know. some days I feel like I'm still transitioning. Some days I feel like, okay, I've made it on the other side. And,~ uh,~ it's a mix of things right now, but I'm sure like a couple years, three years down the line, I'm going to be able to confidently say that, yeah, this is it. This is my footing, ~you know?~

Silvia: Yeah. It probably never is gonna feel like this is it. Even for those established people, they're all just like following, ~you know, their, ~their their joy, their passions. But I think one thing ~is, ~is that like some people are still just ~like, ~do I want to leave architecture? So I think all at all of this advice is extremely valuable.

Silvia: Just nice. 'cause they could be like, I could do that.

Jill Shah: Yeah. It's honestly, it's not very different from architecture. What I do is just so similar. It's just a different side of it. And I think there's [00:55:00] so much scope and already a lot of, space for architects to join this field and more people should take it up, honestly.

Silvia: Especially because architecture, like, it's not really serving ~ like, the, ~the people who work in the field very well anymore.

Jill Shah: it's not. It's really not. And I wish they'd start ~like, you know, ~teaching courses that I learned in my master's in actual architecture programs. I wish that happens someday, ~like. ~Teach programming to architects, ~like ~teach them Python, teach them JavaScript, teach them things that they can then use in their own work.

Jill Shah: I think it's really valuable, but I don't see a lot of programs doing that unless you're allowed to take like electives and students go out of their way to take these kind of classes, but that's very rare.

Silvia: Yeah, it's usually the people that are like, love programming and they just do it because they pick it up on the side because they love it.

Jill Shah: ~Yeah,~

Silvia: ~Very cool. Is there any, uh, websites or any information? You sent me the bio. I have that, which we'll use, but anything else you want to like me to add in the show notes?~

Jill Shah: ~uh, absolutely. I can forward you. Wait, I'm just gonna chat you my website. It's still under construction. It's not built yet, but it's there and I think it'll be okay for people to log on to that and find me. I'm gonna chat it to you right now.~

Silvia: ~Awesome. I will include that. Alright, well, have a good weekend, have a good ~

Silvia: ~Friday,~ it was really nice to chat.

Jill Shah: Yeah, you too. Thank you so much for talking to me and I hope you get some good this. I don't know, I felt like I was blabbering a little bit.

Silvia: Everyone feels like that and everyone does and I want that to happen.

Jill Shah: ~Okay. All~

Silvia: ~Have a good one, thank~

Silvia: ~you. ~

Jill Shah: ~Have a good weekend. Bye bye.~

Silvia: ~Bye.~

Erin: [00:56:00] Hey everyone. It's Erin from out of Architecture. If you find these stories inspiring and are looking for guidance, clarity, or just need someone to talk to about where you are in your career, please know that we offer 30 minute consultations to talk about what may be next for you. If you're interested, head to out of architecture.com/scheduling to book some time with us.

Jake: Hey everyone. It's Jake from Out of Architecture. We love hearing your stories, but we know there's more out there that we've still yet to experience. If you or someone you know would be a good fit for the podcast and has a story about taking their architecture skills beyond the bounds of traditional practice, we'd love to hear it.

Jake: Send us an email at tangents@outofarchitecture.com.

Silvia: Thanks for listening to our podcast, new episodes every two weeks. See you then