S3 E6: Ben Llewellyn
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[00:00:00]

Introduction and the Magic of Architecture
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Benjamin: *And I think *~*that's like, it's like,*~* that's the magic part of it where other people are walking through it and they don't, *~*you know, *~*90 percent of people have walked through buildings are not architects, 99. *~*And,*~* but they still get blown away by the same things that architects are getting blown away by, I think is a really like effective thing.*

Benjamin: *Sometimes architects only *~*get blown away, like they *~*design things that only architects get blown away with by, and it's *~*not as, not as *~*cool, but when you can get everybody to be blown away, it's pretty cool.*

Welcome to Tangents by Out of Architecture
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Silvia: Welcome to Tangents by Out of Architecture. Out of Architecture is a career consulting firm helping designers apply their incredible talents in untraditional ways. We're highlighting some of our favorite stories from the amazing people we've met along the way. We will hear how they created a unique career path for themselves from the wide variety of skills and talents they developed in and out of architecture.

Silvia: Our guest today, Ben Llewellyn, shares his winding journey from graduating with an architecture degree to becoming a freelance illustrator and background artist for animated television shows. Hear his advice for [00:01:00] finding jobs in a different field and how he uses his architectural experience in creating realistic environments and backgrounds.

Silvia: Thank you for listening each week, and I hope this episode encourages you to embrace your inner weirdo and find where you can celebrate those parts of yourself.

Silvia: And welcome to Tangents. I'm excited to have you here.

Guest Introduction and Background
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Silvia: And the way we like to start podcast is how would you describe yourself in three words?

Benjamin: Oh man, ~um,~ probably, , creative, laid back, and independent, maybe?

Silvia: Yeah, totally cool. I do try to ask that without too much like preparation because I want to just get whatever comes first to you. and then, what is your background in architecture?

Benjamin: So I was, very briefly, an architect. I went to architecture school for six years. ~Um,~ actually, ~Five, ~five years, but, ~uh,~ worked as an architect for a professor for about eight months, just doing remodels, and that was my only experience actually [00:02:00] being a professional architect, but I have worked in the art industry, but ~in,~ it's always been architectural adjacent.

Silvia: Yeah. Can you share more about the architectural adjacent and then also what are you up to today?

Benjamin: Yeah.

Transition from Architecture to Animation
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Benjamin: ~So, ~I guess just briefly, like after college, I realized I didn't really want to be an architect for a myriad of reasons. ~Um,~ but where that led me to was into animation and concept design, ~um,~ animation for TV shows and shorts and stuff. ~Um,~ and then concept design for,~ um,~ mostly like immersive art, which I've had the opportunity to work in, which has been super cool.

Benjamin: ~Um,~ and the TV animation stuff, I was always doing background art. So I'm drawing scenes and environments and buildings and interiors.

The Art of Background Design in Animation
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Benjamin: And it's a lot of like quick concepting, ~you know, ~designing a building really fast that maybe it's only going to be in there for one shot, but you still have to ~kind of ~make it feel believable and the characters are going to be animated over it.

Benjamin: So the table has to look the right size compared to the door, et cetera. ~Um, so yeah, those. ~

The Journey of a Freelance Artist
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Benjamin: ~I have,~ I've been a very [00:03:00] eclectic amount of jobs because I've been a freelance artist, ~I guess, ~ever since I decided I wanted to not be an architect. ~Um,~ so it's brought me to tons of different little roles here and there, most of them kind of short.

Benjamin: But, animation and then concept design are ~kind of ~the main two that I've had the most success and enjoyment in.

Silvia: I'm really curious to hear,~ like,~ while you were in architecture school, and then even just,~ like,~ while you're doing everything, do you think it was your interest underneath all of this that kind of led you to where you are today? And you were trying out architecture in a way? Or did you pick, or maybe and you picked up some skills throughout your architecture process?

Silvia: Like, how did they all ~kind of ~mesh together?

The Role of Architecture in Art and Design
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Benjamin: Yeah, I think the first one you said is pretty close because ~I,~ I was always creative, but I was never into architecture as a kid. And~ I was like,~ I was really pragmatic going into college. I was like, I'm going to go into college for business, ~you know? I just. I didn't,~ I wasn't thinking about my future in a very like, I'm actually going to be doing this every day, all day, but I love to draw at the time.

Benjamin: ~Um,~ and my dad ~kind of ~encouraged [00:04:00] me to, ~you know, ~I think he saw that really like to do the design stuff and he's also, he's a writer, so he's creative too. I think he encouraged me to do something slightly less pragmatic than just business, but, to embrace that design side. So I went to architecture, but I didn't really care about architecture.

Benjamin: Like other students in the program were like, this is my life. ~Like, ~this is what I'm here for. Been building tree houses since I was a kid, but I was just ~kind of like, ~yeah, ~buildings are buildings are~ cool. I was more into fantasy. stuff. ~And like, um, but you know, ~I spent five years in architecture school and I started to really enjoy it.

Benjamin: And it totally like~ like ~changed how I think about art and design. And ~now, ~now everything I do is architecturally related. ~Um,~ and ~you know, ~last night I'm sketching on the couch and I'm like drawing rooftops and buildings. ~Like that's,~ that's 90 percent of what I draw, even in my art career is just, it's just buildings and environments and ~you know, some,~ sometimes some cars and stuff,

Silvia: Yeah, that's really interesting that,~ like,~ you ~kind of ~mentioned this before that you need to understand proportions and sizes. And even when you're drawing, you have to understand what you're drawing, right? ~ Like, ~when I look at things, I [00:05:00] teach now, so when I talk to students, ~like, ~my background of my years of experience, I see things that they don't see because they haven't gotten there yet.

Silvia: But if you understand a building, you know all the parts and what makes a building look weird versus, you Like every other building we've seen because there are certain elements that are just part of everything. Yeah, that's really cool.

Benjamin: *Yeah,* I think something I've noticed too in animation working with people who, ~you know, ~we're all doing background art, like one of the longer projects I was working on, there was a team of seven background artists. So it's a lot of people doing just backgrounds and, you work with some people who have~ who have never,~ have no experience in architecture.

Benjamin: Most of them don't, most of them went to art school and ~they've,~ they've been interested in environments, but they haven't ever thought of ~like, ~oh, the pipes that need to go through this wall, we've got to add a couple of extra inches. So I think. That helped me a little bit in that field to set myself apart, ~not necessarily, ~I'm not necessarily better than any of them at it, like sometimes they have skills that I don't have.

Benjamin: to be able to represent something in a more, ~you know, ~stylistic way or something. ~Um,~ but ~I have,~ I've found that sets me apart and I can at least, ~you know, ~in this field, ~like ~advertise myself as [00:06:00] somebody who's really good at making things that feel realistic and are easy for the animators to work with.

Benjamin: ~That's, ~that's another thing is that. You pass off the drawings to the next person and then they have to use it. So everything does have to be very, ~you know, ~there's a lot like every scene has to be very tight.

Silvia: I have so many things that I want to connect. But another thing I was thinking was that just because you're an architect or you go to architecture school doesn't mean much. It's what do you want to do with that education? And then once you're working, what do you want to focus on? Because You can ~kind of ~be guided by where you end up working, but for the most part, you really should be taking it on yourself and saying where you want to go.

Silvia: So you could be doing the same thing in an architecture office and doing redner rings. So ~it's, it's, it's~ really interesting to that, ~like ~you found your own path through it and are using the things that you've learned. ~Um,~ and then how did you transition with your. Architectural background when you were first starting to work in the artist space.

Silvia: And if you since you freelance a lot, like [00:07:00] just what does that look like?

The Challenges and Rewards of Freelancing
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Benjamin: Yeah, ~that was,~ that was a pretty bumpy road for me for a couple years because I got out of school. I graduated in 2017. and I had done a couple projects for professors. ~Like I was, I was,~ I've always been pretty like Hard work. ~Like I'm, ~I like go after stuff. I see a professor had an opportunity to work on like this green studio handbook, which was pretty used.

Benjamin: So I did some illustrations for that and was trying to get a little bit of a,~ like,~ I think it was in my last couple of years of architecture school where I told my parents I want to draw comics and they were like,~ well, that's, ~ridiculous. And I now also think that's ridiculous because there's no money to be made in comics, but, there was this desire in me to not be doing architecture because I think, ~you know, ~I just, I wanted to just be designing all the time and like making stuff and just drawing ~and, and~ the thought of being on a project for three, five years.

Benjamin: and like doing so little design I think was starting to ~like ~weigh on me. so yeah, I got out of school and I only worked as an architect for a few months. And, I just ~kind of ~was like winging it. Like I had no idea what I was doing. I was just[00:08:00] applying to random little freelance gigs here and there getting nothing.

Benjamin: so I spent about ~like ~six or eight months, like just ~kind of ~trying to just. start as a freelancer, having no idea what I'm doing, having no real portfolio for what I'm applying for. ~Like, ~I have my architecture school work, which is pretty decent, but it wasn't for the jobs I was looking for, because I was looking for jobs in the comic book world, which there's so few, and concept art and animation and all those.

Benjamin: It's like ~the, ~the bar is very high and You have to have portfolio work that shows exactly that you can do the job that you're applying for. You can't be somebody who's necessarily ~like, ~Oh, I can change my style to match your style. You have to show that you can make it. ~So I was, ~there was a big,~ a big, a big~ gap that I think I was unaware of how hard it was going to be to break into the industry.

Benjamin: ~Um,~ so I actually ended up working at a, restaurant for a couple of years. Which was really good because it allowed me to just. not be stressed about money and just focus on my art. And I think I did a ton of learning in that time. I took an online concept design course, [00:09:00] which really helped me.

Benjamin: It was like an 800 course. and it like totally gave me some skills I needed to make a portfolio of my own work for the industry. but yeah, I worked at a pizza restaurant, was doing all this, just ~like. ~band posters, pet paintings, like whatever I could come across to do. And I wasn't even good at half of it.

Benjamin: So ~it was, it was, I wasn't,~ I wasn't super happy at the time, I think. ~Cause I was like, really like,~ I just spent five years in school. I have student loans and I have, ~um,~ very little progress to show for it, ~kind of, uh,~ career wise.

Breaking into the Animation Industry
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Benjamin: and then I think what I did that actually got me my first job in animation was I literally sent a message to ~like.~

Benjamin: maybe 150 people on LinkedIn. ~That was a, that was just like, ~and at this point I had made a little bit more of a portfolio, sent this message out, it's essentially the same message I think I ~kind of, you know, ~for more important people that I was talking to I was like maybe personalize a little bit, but, ~um, it was,~ it felt like ~sort of ~like a Hail Mary thing and a friend of mine had encouraged me to do it.

Benjamin: And I got ~like ~two responses. And, ~you know, ~one of them was super positive, but he's like I don't have anything right now. And then, like three weeks [00:10:00] later, ~he,~ he just ~like ~this guy just emails me and he's ~like, ~Hey, can you start on a project for two weeks tomorrow? And, ~um,~ I was like, I can, yeah, let's make it happen, ~you know, ~and then that two week project, something happened to one of the other artists that he had to knock out.

Benjamin: So it actually was two months and I had a pretty decent little portfolio piece and animation at that time. And that shows on Netflix. So that was like really cool for me. ~so I kind of got like, You kind of kind of have to like ~in that animation industry and concept design industry, you kind of have~ kind of ~to just you don't have a good portfolio for or like you didn't go to art school, you really do have to do something a little bit creative to get ~in, ~in my opinion, and I'm sure.

Benjamin: Maybe if you're just a better designer than me you'd get in, ~you know, ~but I think I'm in like a pretty average maybe okay designer, but there's other people who are so good that they will get a job, but I'm not quite that good, ~you know, ~so I have to be a little more creative, and I think that's what most people have to do is just ~like, ~try to think of it.

Benjamin: ~You know, ~hit up a hundred people. It worked for me. I don't know. I can't say it's a perfect thing, but, since I've had that job, it's been so much easier to get other jobs too, in that field. that's a lot, but

Silvia: ~No, No, ~no, it was great.

Reflections on Architecture and Animation
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Silvia: [00:11:00] And actually, ~uh,~ messaging a lot of people on LinkedIn is something that comes up a lot, especially I think when you're transitioning or switching careers where you don't have that background in it, you do have to just, ~you know, ~rely on strangers sometimes to just make those connections.

Silvia: ~And, when you said that, uh,~ and actually when you said that other designers might be better than you, I'm sure like some people are, but other people just have to work hard too. What makes a better designer? I'm not entirely familiar with ~like ~the animation space, so can you give us a little background into maybe like things that you picked up as you transitioned into there?

Benjamin: So yeah, when I'm talking about a better designer in the animation space, maybe I'm,~ I'm, ~I'm not necessarily talking about ~like ~a better artist or better designer, but it's somebody who is really good at like meeting the deadlines of animation as well as. Making the art director happy, and it's like the people who get the least amount of pushback on their designs.

Benjamin: ~So, ~the process in the animation world in general, ~most of your,~ most jobs if you're doing characters or backgrounds and stuff, it's ~kind of ~the same.~ You, ~you get [00:12:00] assignments at the beginning of the week. And then every other day you meet with your art director and she goes through all the assignments that you've worked on so far and is like,~ like, ~okay, this one's good.

Benjamin: This one needs this change. This one needs this. So if you're a really good designer, ~um, you know, ~essentially the art director is ~like, ~these are all awesome. Keep going, ~you know? ~So ~it's,~ it's pretty easy to feel, I think. And ~you know, ~if you start a new project, of course, you're going to have a month of ~like, ~a little more pushback with the art director until you really start nailing the style, but I've worked with people who just jump on the project and within a couple days they've like just totally, ~you know, ~gotten the style so fast and ~they,~ they're economic.

Benjamin: They do just enough in a background where it's actually, you look at it on a show and you're like, this is actually the level of detail that is right. I could go too far. I used to do that all the time. I would draw every book on a shelf or something and it's ~like, ~it actually takes away from the scene.

Benjamin: ~You know,~ the art director sees it and she's ~like, this is like, ~this scene's about the characters. I don't want the background to be a focus here. Sometimes the background can be a focus, ~but, um, so yeah, like really, ~and a lot of that just comes from, I think some people maybe have a little bit [00:13:00] of a knack for that, but a lot of it just comes from, ~you know, ~these people have been doing it for 10 years.

Benjamin: They know how to please an art director, but you come in from an architect's point of view and you're caring about things like, oh, the. door width is ~like, is~ nine feet tall. That's too tall for a door height or something, ~you know, ~and ~nobody,~ the art director doesn't give a shit. She's just ~like, ~it has to look like it's got to be good on the show.

Benjamin: And she doesn't know anything about architecture either. So it's ~like, ~It doesn't even have to be realistic. It just has to please the art director who is the one that is maintaining the style and making sure the style stays the same, which is really important when you have 200 people working on a show.

Silvia: That's a really good, way to think about it and the perspective it gives you, and I can totally relate to architects caring too much about things that don't really matter in the end, but for some reason,~ like,~ architects will,~ like, ~focus on it being clean and alignments and things like that,~ like,~ so much and,~ like,~ fix everything, and I ~kind of ~do that too.

Silvia: ~Like, ~it makes me very happy when I look at it and everything's tight and clean, but it also, in the end, it ~kind of ~doesn't matter most of the time.

Benjamin: Yeah. And how many times you'll just spend working on something that nobody else ever [00:14:00] recognizes when you could have been maybe spending that time, like creating a better whole of all the parts, if that makes sense.

Silvia: No, absolutely. I've done that in so many ways. And actually, I think that's ~kind of ~how I felt when I was working on, in a traditional office that, The people that were working on the drawings would work so deeply in it, but then the owners, the clients,~ like,~ they didn't actually know all the little details that you're putting in, so I became the one that cared the most, and it was ~kind of like, you know, it was just a business,~ it felt more like a business, and I was just one part of it, but at the same time, aren't the drawings the most important?

Silvia: So I can imagine that being like a weird shift when you're switching to just ~like ~focus on the big picture more.

Benjamin: Yeah, totally.~ Yeah. Um, yeah, ~I think ~like. really, uh, the, the, like ~the concepts are the same in architecture and animation. ~Um, but~

Benjamin: ~I don't really know what I'm saying here.~

Silvia: Yeah, no, that's cool. ~ Um, let's see. Okay. Where, uh, what the journey? I mean, ~it's really interesting, right? Because actually, it's also hard to get architecture jobs, too. If you don't know anybody, you ~kind of ~always need some kind of an in. But do you ever think about what your life would be as an architect?

Silvia: Or are you happy about having that background? And then while still just being very happy where you are today?

Benjamin: [00:15:00] Yeah, I'm happy about the background for sure. And sometimes I do wish I was an architect just for the stability of not being a freelancer. and ~you know, ~I have a lot of friends who most of ~like~ my friends in Portland where I live are architects and I went to school with them. so I hang around them a lot and ~You know, I, I, I really like, I, ~there's a lot I love about the scene.

Benjamin: I just think that I'm always wanting to do something new. ~I'm, I'm~ always wanting to work on a new project. Like I get home from work and I'm drawing like every night, like pretty much. so ~I just, I'm just, I just~ in school cared so much more about. Drawing like you're saying, like I would be the person like focusing on the drawings and get a review and ~the, ~reviewers are like not the best building.

Benjamin: The drawings are cool, but the building's okay. Like I just cared so much more about ~like ~making something that looked really cool rather than necessarily making a great building. Although now, ~you know, ~as I get older, it's like I could totally see myself ending up back in architecture in 10 years. I don't know, like ~I really could.~

Benjamin: ~I would,~ getting more and more interested in architecture now that I took ~kind of ~a [00:16:00] few years like running away. Now I like I really like I have all my old architecture school books out now because I've been like flipping through them like thinking like maybe, ~you know, ~want to build something of my own.

Benjamin: So I'm super happy about that background and I think it. has paved the way for me having like a personal brand or kind of art style or whatever just to be like ~ I'm an,~ I'm an environmental designer or ~I'm a, um, I don't know,~ I'm always ~kind of ~changing my title, like background designer, concept artist.

Benjamin: ~Um, yeah, I think, you know, I,~ I think the stability of architecture seems Nice. ~Uh, ~animation is super unstable. Like right now it's like super rough. There's writer strike last year, threw a lot of things off. ~So, um, yeah, I, that's, yeah,~

Silvia: I guess everything's always going to look a little nicer from the other side, because I actually, I thought architecture would be super stable too, that ~like, um, I,~ I left during the pandemic, but the company I was at,~ like,~ they've been really good. Bye. having multiple layoffs since then, ~you know, ~because projects are like the interest rates are going up, projects aren't coming in, projects aren't getting built.

Silvia: So then they do some layoffs and that was a job that I thought was going to be super stable. ~ So, you know, you can only, ~I think that's [00:17:00] an illusion, the stability,~ like, you know, ~

Benjamin: ~That's, ~that's interesting. Cause it's ~like, ~even as somebody who was in architecture school and has architecture friends, like ~I,~ I totally could see that being illusion and I could see myself being, ~you know, ~tricked by that illusion. And I think it's easy to, when you're in a field that feels unstable, you're like, Oh, that looks so nice.

Benjamin: Yeah.

Silvia: yeah. And then also, ~um, I,~ I think what you develop from I guess being more into the freelance gigs is that you probably are more quick to respond to things. It's ~like ~no one job is like your foundation for your life. So you're always seeking new opportunities and new possibilities of things you can do and interests too.

Silvia: So that's ~kind of ~nice too, to just be able to be like, yeah, I could do that if I wanted.

Benjamin: Yeah. I have a friend who travels constantly. and I feel like he's so much more comfortable with traveling. than me. Like he doesn't get stressed about a flight or something. He's just ~like, ~whatever, it's just travel. And I do feel like doing all these freelance gigs and applying for so many things and just like ~kind of ~reaching out to people constantly.

Benjamin: I'm so much ~like, ~it's just like nothing at this point. ~Like, ~Oh yeah, I got to send an email this person to make sure I keep them up on my [00:18:00] list. And ~kind of like, you know, there's,~ there's so many little social things, but at the same time, it's like, ~if you can,~ I'm really happy that I've found some jobs that ~I, ~I really like and some places that I really like to work.

Benjamin: because I feel like I can be authentic and that makes it so much easier for me to actually make,~ like, you know, ~you, you hit up somebody that you haven't talked to in a year because you want to maybe work for them again, but you also actually like that person a little bit. It makes it so much easier to be like, Hey, Tony, like I haven't seen you in a long time.

Benjamin: ~Like, ~so ~I, ~think I've always tried to trust some intuition of myself as a guide. ~Um, ~and. ~You know, if, ~I'm not clicking with somebody, it's probably a good indicator that that's not a direction I need to go because there's so many directions to go. So ~why would, ~why would I even waste my time on that?

Benjamin: and then if you are clicking with somebody, that person thinks you're cool,~ they, you know, it's, ~it's just so much better, like everything about it. So I really think ~like ~that has been a huge part of ~this whole applying, like~ learning how to be a freelance artist. And it's hard to do at first and.

Benjamin: ~You really have to,~ when people even give you a little bit of something, like a stranger is ~kind of like, you know, ~you reach out to them and they give you something back. ~Like ~that means a lot,~ like,~ [00:19:00] because most people don't. And when somebody does ~like, ~you should take that and be like, Hey, your art's really cool.

Benjamin: ~Like, ~I think you're like, I don't know. I think so much of it is just ~kind of ~being friendly with other artists and like finding people that you think do cool stuff and trying to tell them that they're cool. And then they tell ~you ~you're cool. And then hopefully you work together.

Silvia: Yeah, that's actually very on point. I think like all of my side things right now are because ~I wanted~ I found people that like we were ~kind of ~like vibing with or like we were both in the right place, like wanting to pursue the same opportunity at the same time, because I've had so many friends like architecture school, everyone's really creative, like you would love to do things together, but you're always so busy with work, you don't have free time.

Silvia: So then now, transitioning out of architecture school like I, or architecture, I have more flexibility now so that I can devote time to other things if I wanted to, and I think that's why I'm pursued the things that I'm doing now is because those people were people that like I just wanted to work with.

Silvia: I had an interest, but it was also the [00:20:00] people were a huge part of it. And I don't think you get to control that as much if you're working in a firm for ~like ~10 years, whoever you work with is whoever you work with.

Benjamin: No, that's so true. what are your other things that you're doing right now?

Silvia: Yeah, so my day job is, I work in a tech company. We have a product for, architects use on their projects. It's like a database kind of thing. And the people are the nicest people I've ever worked with. They're from Lincoln, Nebraska, so maybe being in the center of the country has something to do with it.

Introduction to the Speaker's Background
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Silvia: I'm from New York, ~like, ~so like New York City architecture firms.

Benjamin: ~Well, ~I'm also from an edge of the country too. Yeah,

Silvia: But then I work with Out of Architecture.

The Birth of a Podcast
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Silvia: We made this podcast and it was really like, I have an idea and I want to create it. And they were like, yes, we want to create it too. And this came out of it, ~you know, ~like we just kept going with it.

Silvia: You ~kind of like ~have a good feeling. You, Put your hopes and dreams out there and then people respond nicely to it. And then you're like, okay, I guess we should keep doing this.

Balancing Teaching and Collaboration
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Silvia: and then I also [00:21:00] teach because Erin, who is part of Out of Architecture, teaches and I was like, she's an amazing person. I don't even ~like, ~I'm happy to work with her even more. Yeah.

Benjamin: Aaron have been super cool. I remember like a meeting I had with them. I feel like one of ~the earlier, ~people that worked with them.

The Vagabond Sketchbook Journey
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Benjamin: And, my website is ~in like my, ~like my online, I don't know what it is. It's a persona or something. It's not a persona. It's just, my website is called vagabondsketchbook.

Benjamin: com. And it's always just been that. And it's ~like, You know, ~he was ~kind of ~asking me, he's ~like, ~do you want to ~like ~do the Vagabond sketchbook thing, or do you want to like, do a regular job, because he's ~kind of ~like you're ~kind of ~doing this like edgy ~like ~trying to be different thing. I don't know, I guess I want to do the Vagabond thing like, I don't know, there's part of me that's like it feels like a tiny bit childish, ~you know, ~but at the same time it's ~like.~

Benjamin: it's just authentic. It's just ~like, ~I feel like a little bit of a vagabond and the way I navigate and I've always just ~kind of ~been on my own and ~like, ~but at the same time, ~you know, ~I'm open to any opportunity. And ~so, ~that was just like, I've thought about that little conversation I had with him so many times because he like questioned that kind of in this professional manner.

Benjamin: And [00:22:00] he's ~like, ~either you need to ~like ~roll into this all the way and ~like ~be the vagabond or just ~kind of Like, ~because I think I was talking to him and I was getting cold feet about, it's ~like, ~I don't know if I can do this freelance thing,~ like, ~but ~he, ~encouraged me to just ~kind of like, like, be, you know, ~you know, be a little bit of the weirdo that I am in that way and just ~like ~embrace it and ~like, ~roll into that side.

Benjamin: And I think ~it's, ~it's been good.

Silvia: Yeah, absolutely.

Reflections on Architectural Career
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Silvia: I think as an architect, like it's ~kind of ~weird for me to say, but I don't think I was a very great architect. I was probably like, okay, like I care a lot about things like deadlines. I'll make sure I hit them. I care a lot about the drawings. They'll be clean, neat, tight, and as ~like ~coordinated as possible.

Silvia: Like I can manage things, but I don't like some people are just really good at their jobs, right? Like they're like thriving and they like are ~just, ~good at that. And ~like, ~I don't think that was exactly aligned with me in a traditional office, and it, I think I felt it, ~you know, like, ~it just wasn't the place where I could be myself,~ like,~ 100%.

Silvia: And I never really thought much about it until you find places where you do fit more comfortably, and you don't have to worry about,~ like,~ silly things that you were worrying about before. ~So, ~it's [00:23:00] really nice to hear that you pursued,~ like,~ the weirdo part.

Benjamin: Yeah. ~And it's, yeah, I, no, I,~ I totally feel that.

Transition into Animation
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Benjamin: ~Um, and I think~ there was a moment when I was in animation and I was like, Oh, I think this is like the first job I had where I actually feel like I'm good at it. ~I mean, ~I've been fine at jobs and I feel like I was good at cooking. this job, It just feels so good to be ~like, ~giving back a lot to the job, ~you know, ~and caring for it.

Benjamin: ~Um, but yeah, I,~ I will say ~like, ~yeah, I had to be a cook for two years, ~um,~ to do that.

The Impact of Working in a Kitchen
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Benjamin: And I think that part of my journey is the thing that I am like, weirdly the most thankful for, because it totally. I don't know, I talk about that job more than any job I've ever had, like it's the one that like sticks in my head with the most memories.

Benjamin: And I think just like working in the service industry. after college was, ~it was like,~ there was a moment where I had ~like ~four or five friends who had graduated as architects. came into the place I was working for lunch with their whole firm. And I had to ~like ~serve them food in my apron, ~you know, like, um,~ I didn't actually serve it to him, but I was just, I'm like behind the counter, like cooking them food.

Benjamin: And it's just ~kind of like, like, ~it was a little bit embarrassing because I was like, Oh, we all went to school [00:24:00] together and you guys are all like with your big architecture firm. ~but you know, like, ~It's easy to be embarrassed about something like that, but it's like ~that, ~that experience being there and just like working a regular job and it gave me so much more focus on my art, because that job was so low stress, even though as a manager it was like, I wasn't ever going home thinking about it, I could work 30 hours a week so I had some extra time to work on my own stuff.

Benjamin: and I don't know I just like. I'm obsessed with kitchens now. I draw kitchens all the time. Like I made a, I'm working on like an animated short that's like all around a kitchen. and just ~the, ~community there is so great. Like, All the time I'm like, man, I wish I was working in the kitchen again, because it's just simple and it's like very communal and you just, you really have to be a group of people that works smoothly together.

Benjamin: It's no different than animation or anything. It's just like more cussing but I just think sometimes I'm like, man, that job was actually I really enjoyed it. It paid really bad and sometimes like it hurt my body physically. But, otherwise, I have about as much fun doing my work there as I do.

Benjamin: Even sometimes today on my work because I just realized like so [00:25:00] much of it is about if I'm in a happy if I'm in a space around other people that are cool, because when I go home and draw after work, that's what I would consider my actual art, what I'm doing for work, ~even if it's~ even if it's something I really like is more of just design for work.

Benjamin: ~So, ~If I'm going to be just designing, like I might as well, the most important thing for me is to be in like, in a space that I feel like I'm doing something good, can be doing something good, and people like me and I like them.

Silvia: Yeah, I can relate to that a lot. Like for some, not for some reason, but like on Netflix, like the shows that I gravitate towards the most are like Top Chef or like fashion shows. Like I can't sew or anything like that. Or there's like a makeup show, but I think because it's like these people like embody their passion so much.

Silvia: And then it's a creative craft where they have to take an idea and bring it to life, whether it's food or makeup or clothing, but it's more like it's a whole concept and ~it's, ~it's also really beautiful to see like that creative, action, like being happening. ~So. ~Working together,~ like,~ creating something together, and also the processes [00:26:00] that allow these things to happen,~ like,~ it's all very interesting.

Silvia: I think architecture is like one slice of all of this design creative world.

Benjamin: totally.

The Power of Storytelling in Design
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Silvia: How much of the storytelling part of this, because architecture is not always Talked about in the storytelling way, but ~like ~as an architect, like that's how you sell things, right? ~Like ~that's how you convince people or ~like, ~convey to them what you're trying to think.

Silvia: You're essentially telling them a story. And I imagine that's very strong themes that are you're doing in your work as well. Like, how does that relate?

Benjamin: Oh yeah, I'm like, I'm so obsessed with story. my dad's a writer and he's written a couple children's books. He works for like a company that he writes for, like advertising writing, but he would always like try to get me and my little brother to tell stories as a kid. So it was like trying to, you would just be like, all right,~ like,~ let's just ~like ~make up stories, ~you know?~

Benjamin: So I've always just been so around like stories and the concept of narrative. Like he always just talked about that. I didn't even know what it meant as a kid. I was like, whatever,~ like,~ read books. But as I got older, I'm like, okay, I get it. and ~it's such a, like, like you said, like, ~[00:27:00] think you don't realize how much it's part of everything, like you have a building, maybe you're not thinking of the story when in some of the design, but like how you have to pitch it to the client.

Benjamin: It's crazy how important that is. And, , I think something, ~you know, ~I've worked on quite a few personal projects. Like I have a story on my website that you can read that has like illustrations on it. I'm working on a book right now. It's like a puzzle book. it's super complicated, but I could talk about it.

Benjamin: the story,~ like,~ I feel like that to me is the seed, because it's words and words are the most abstract. form of design, in my opinion. So it's ~like, ~you want to start with the most abstract thing and then get to a more realistic realism. Like you want to add all the details, but you want to start with this abstract, just concept.

Benjamin: ~So, ~even just ~like ~a phrase being the concept of a building, which often can be, or like a party diagram or something is not that far, like a party diagram, like essentially looks like a few letters put together. Like it's as simple as a word. So ~I, ~think that's so important. And I think if.

Benjamin: If the story isn't figured out, then the final design I make,[00:28:00] ~like ~if I'm talking about concept art, for example, concept art is so about story because you're trying to make a piece of art that one drawing or something that captures a whole tale that you can see,~ like, you know, ~there's a man on a cliff and he's about to fall, but then there's something swooping by, it's about to save him or something like that, ~you know?~

Benjamin: So you want to feel like it's a story when you see it. If the story's not there, you will be stumbling through the whole time trying to be like, All right, is it going to fall this way or is it going to do this? But if you just had a really good solid point, then everything can grow out of that. And it's ~like, ~I don't know, some artist said this, but he's ~like, ~I always start with the title of my book.

Benjamin: And then everything else comes out of that because the title's the simplest. It's just the one word that represents the whole book and everything else, which I don't know if that is probably not a good way to write a book. But I like that idea of ~like ~thinking of things as a seed and growing them from there.

Benjamin: So that's why I think story is the seed of. any art project, ~even if it's just like,~ even if it's not a story of words, like if you have a really abstract art thing, there's still ~some kind of like, I don't know,~ some kind of narrative there that can describe it in the simplest terms.

Silvia: And the way I feel about this with buildings is that,~ like,~ it's okay if the person [00:29:00] doesn't even know that this is all happening because that amount of intention put into the work ~kind of, like, ~guides it or,~ like, ~roots it down into something that the connectedness shows even if you don't know what the concept is.

Benjamin: Yeah, totally. And I think ~that's like, it's like,~ that's the magic part of it where other people are walking through it and they don't, ~you know, ~90 percent of people have walked through buildings are not architects, 99. ~And,~ but they still get blown away by the same things that architects are getting blown away by, I think is a really like effective thing.

Benjamin: Sometimes architects only ~get blown away, like they ~design things that only architects get blown away with by, and it's ~not as, not as ~cool, but when you can get everybody to be blown away, it's pretty cool.

Silvia: What is the equivalent of that in illustration? ~Like, ~they just are left with a memory or they just,~ like,~ a feeling or

Benjamin: Yeah, I think ~like. ~it's funny when I'm working in animation in the background art team, ~well ~I worked on one show for over a year, so that was like my longest contract in animation, and ~we just, I mean we, ~there's just thousands of backgrounds that we all saw together collectively that we had created, and it's ~like, ~you instantly can just see.

Benjamin: I think you have to [00:30:00] work up a skill to be able to see it, but there's all these little principles of design, and ~you can just, ~tell when it works, especially now that you've seen a thousand backgrounds of the show, you can be like, ~Like, ~it comes up and everybody on the team I think knows if it's great or not, and sometimes it's like, when you're making a background for animation, you're in it, and you're having troubles, and even you are like, this isn't great, but it's good enough, and it'll probably get approved, but ~like, ~the art director's not gonna be like, ooh, wow, she's gonna be like, okay, cool, which is fine, but, It's hard sometimes for you when you're in it to be able to see what's the thing to change to make it be right.

Benjamin: And that's what the art director is there for, right? That's why it's an essential role, I think, in animation. It's because she gets it, fresh set of eyes, looks at it for five seconds. Her whole thing is ~like, ~that instant, ~uh, ~instinctual, she's like training herself just to do that ~as fast ~as fast as possible.

Benjamin: And, I really like working with an art director in general because I think it makes my designs better. it's helped me learn about things I consistently do poorly.

The Role of Mentorship in Career Development
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Benjamin: ~And it's like, if you don't like, man, ~I wish I had, a mentor when I had started out, that [00:31:00] was super critical of my work.

Benjamin: Cause I think it would have saved me so much time. So I really think, yeah, ~like ~if you can get people that are professionals that can tell you what's wrong with your stuff and you're trying to get into that field, it's ~like, ~it's so essential.

Silvia: It's ~kind of ~both ways, right? ~Like, ~when I was younger, I would always be like, I wish my mentors,~ like, ~would just tell me, ~like,~ what am I missing? ~Like, ~just shower me with knowledge. And that's not how it works either. And then it's also ~like, ~you ~kind of ~have to be in it to ~kind of ~you yourself know what you're looking at.

Silvia: So it's a little hard, but do you have any advice ~or for people, like, advice~ that you would give to your younger self or just tips or anything along

Benjamin: Um,~ Um, ~yeah, ~I would definitely, uh, like,~ I think. ~You know, ~you go to architecture school and you get a lot of really good learning, but it's ~like, ~if you're trying to get into a different field, and I think this probably applies to a lot of things, but ~like, ~concept art, animation, any kind of artistic field,~ like,~ you have to, ~um,~ I think it's really worth it to invest in some learning in that specific thing, and I think it's better to pay for it and get a teacher, that can be that mentor for you, and you're saying like, it's hard to have just a ~mentor ~mentor like this floating person just to be there, but if you [00:32:00] take a class or something, and you have this project you're working on then the teacher is able to, ~you know, ~critique you exactly in the ways that you need it, and I think.

Benjamin: when I did that, after a couple years of ~kind of ~freelancing and struggling, I did that and I was like, wow, I should have done this right away. ~Like, ~this was, it was the most hopeful thing I could have done, and I probably should do it again, honestly. I should probably take another course to continue that learning, because it's ~like, ~it's crazy, I think, how much it helps.

Benjamin: other thing, ~I guess. ~is finding some time to be able to create a portfolio of work and have that time to learn those new skills is also hard. I think, like you said, like you're an architect, it's demanding job and it's ~kind of ~stressful and maybe working more than 40 hours a week. so I don't know, that's the hard part, in my opinion, if you're have a bunch of money and you can take a year off and do ~that, ~that's really cool.

Benjamin: And you should do that, ~I guess. ~but also ~I'm definitely,~ I think working in a kitchen is a great experience and, ~uh, it's not like,~ it doesn't have to be like some huge, taking you away from ~your, ~career path. I think it's actually healthy after college to maybe go spend some time, not right into the field.

Benjamin: ~It can totally,~ it's good for a lot of people to jump right into it, but some [00:33:00] people, and I knew I needed something. I needed some time away from that. And I had to work and make money, but, doing that allowed me to just be in a completely different headspace, hang out with different people, probably drink too much because it's the service industry, but, All these things that like really I think gave me a lot of humanity and perspective that ~as I come back to the, and ~I said I'm ~kind of ~always like getting closer and closer to architecture.

Benjamin: I didn't really talk about it but some of my other concept artwork more recently has been for the immersive art, and it's like I'm working with architects and engineers and stuff, it's a lot more ~like, ~the door actually does have to be exactly the right height and everything is technical. So I'm ~kind of ~like slowly, the pendulum is slowly swinging back to architecture for me in a lot of ways.

Benjamin: and I think, ~yeah, I just, I think like, I'm, I don't,~ I don't regret ~not being like, like, I don't regret~ working in a kitchen or doing all that stuff that made me feel, I think at the time, a little bit, maybe, unstable and embarrassed even sometimes. I just, I can't recommend it enough really.

Silvia: Yeah, thank you for sharing that and saying that it was like an embarrassing moment, but one thing that ~I,~ it also sounds like it was is that it was very much allowed you to control what you were doing and [00:34:00] what you were spending your time on and allowing you to pursue something that you felt was very important to yourself and like you were just making it work.

Silvia: That's like empowering

Benjamin: Yeah, no,~ that's,~ that's like the opposite of embarrassing. And I think it's ~like, ~yeah, we just, it's so easy to look at things in this. Like you go to school, you're like architects work and these people do, I don't know, everything after school, ~it's like,~ I feel like my mind was so put into this little nozzle of ~like ~what reality is and you're around only, ~you know, ~in architecture program specifically, you're just around architecture kids all the time.

Benjamin: ~So you, you're not like. ~You're not just taking a general degree, you're in a degree where you're just around this small group, and you're in such a bubble, so I highly advocate, ~you know, ~it's ~like, ~get out of the bubble for a little bit before you go back in, maybe, but I think we all just have our own paths, and that, I was willing to do it at the time, I also love cooking, and that job has made me an excellent cook today,~ like,~ I can cook anything now, I learned so many tricks of cooking, but yeah, It's not architecture.

Silvia: It's still creating though. ~Like, ~I think that's awesome. And actually, being able to cook sounds amazing. ~Like, ~whatever you want, feeding yourself every day is such,~ like,~ [00:35:00] a hard thing to

Benjamin: it is a hard thing to do and it's going to get really expensive too. So yeah.

Silvia: Yeah,~ like,~ after a long week,~ like,~ me and my husband will go out to eat because, ~you know, ~we want to,~ like,~ have a nice meal. But it'd be great if we could just make that meal ourselves at home I don't want to eat the same food every day, so we go out to eat.

Benjamin: I had a, professor that I ended up working for in college, ~he was really big on,~ he was also a huge cook. he made a giant. paella dish for ~like ~50 people for one of our classes. Like ~he was, ~a cool dude. but he would always talk about how architecture, cooking are like the same thing.

Benjamin: Like ~he would, ~he would bring it up as a metaphor all the time. And I liked it a lot. Cause he's ~like, ~you just got to have the right ratio of ingredients. And ~like, ~it's all about just ~kind of ~these,~ like, ~making sure that things are in the right ratios. And~ it's like, ~when you're cooking, like If things are just a little bit off, ~it tastes,~ it could taste pretty good.

Benjamin: But when things are perfect, it tastes correct. It tastes like perfect. Like when you have this food from this region of the world made by those people and it's made right, it's ~like, ~oh, I get it now. If it's even just a little bit off, you're like, that's good, whatever. But ~you know what I mean?~

Benjamin: It's like hits and it's just, it's perfect. And I think In design, it's like that too. It's [00:36:00] like when one of these backgrounds on the show or something, it's like the design almost, it's like it exists out there in reality in its perfect form, and it's my job to go and find it. I'm not necessarily the one like coming up with it.

Benjamin: This is what I think, ~I guess. ~But it's like,~ like, ~there is this perfect design out there. Maybe there's every design out there ever made, but ~it's like. ~you have to ~kind of like~ let down your own ego and stuff and be like, I'm willing ~to, ~do something maybe I didn't want to necessarily do in the first place to make this design perfect.

Benjamin: And then you see it and you're like, Okay, that's perfect. I'll take it.

Silvia: Yeah, it's a really interesting process, ~like, just like,~ figuring out what the story is, what your concept is, how do you bring it to life, and how do you represent it perfectly and convey it to other people. And ~like, ~actually, that's what I love about architecture, or ~like, ~projects in general, is that process throughout all of it.

Benjamin: Yeah, I love that too.

Silvia: Yeah, and I think it's actually the skills that you need to do that make you so powerful. ~Like, ~you can do anything.

Benjamin: yeah, it's true.

Exciting Future Projects and Final Thoughts
---

Silvia: ~So, ~So, what are you excited for? ~Um, yeah, anything.~

Benjamin: yeah I'm excited for this year of cool projects coming [00:37:00] up I'm pretty sure. It's like this beginning of the year I feel like I'm always ~kind of like ~talking to a bunch of people being like, all right, ~what's what's~ happening. so I have a couple cool things coming up, but, the main thing I've been working on my own is like a puzzle book that I'm doing, which is very, architectural in a lot of ways because ~it's, ~illustrated and there's a story, but every other page there's a puzzle that you have to solve.

Benjamin: And the puzzle is, a scene that you're in and there's all these like walkways, paths, structures and stuff. And ~you have ~to navigate the scene by putting these actions in the correct order. It's ~kind of ~hard to describe, right? But the whole book ~is, ~full of all these little architectural scenes that you're ~sort of ~like exploring with your eyes and ~sort of ~a Where's Waldo kind of way to ~like ~find the little mysteries and then choose how to solve this puzzle.

Benjamin: so that's fun because it's both something that I'm passionate about and I am working ~on ~on my own and it's driven just by whatever I want to do. but I've also been working on the story for it for a couple of years. And now ~it's, ~it's at a point now where I have a chunk of it done and I'm feeling like, ~you know, ~maybe this year I can actually get the ball rolling and either find a publisher or kickstart it.

Benjamin: So that's ~kind of ~the thing I'm like excited about at the moment.

Silvia: [00:38:00] Yeah, it sounds awesome. Please share any, links or anything, that, so we can keep, updated on that. And then, I'm probably asking this a little late, but for people that want to get into illustrations or something in this realm, what do you recommend to,~ like,~ do first?

Benjamin: I think the first thing you should do. is find what position you want, and find the title of the role. ~And that, that will probably take, like,~ it took me a couple years to realize I wanted to be an,~ an, ~an animator or concept designer. I think I like, I want to do comics at first. And then I was like, Oh, that's not actually the role I want.

Benjamin: ~Like, ~so I think really,~ like,~ once you do that, ~then you're able to say,~ then you can go type role's name, find their portfolio and be like, I need to make portfolio that's this good. Which is going to be really hard because these people are ~really, ~really fucking good. ~Like, ~they're really talented. All these people are really hard working in the art.

Benjamin: But, you can totally do it. And you just have to figure out some tricks and figure out, ~you know, some, ~some stuff. So ~you gotta, ~you gotta meet the industry. You gotta,~ like,~ it's out there. The industry standard. You just go find other people who have a job you want and essentially make a portfolio that's to [00:39:00] their level of quality and is exactly for the position that you're looking for.

Benjamin: So if you want to be a background artist for a TV show, go find background artist portfolios and make a portfolio like theirs because when somebody's hiring you in the field, they just want somebody who's coming on and is just able from day one to just start making the stuff because there's hundreds and hundreds of backgrounds to be drawn.

Benjamin: There's not really time to teach somebody stuff. like I thought maybe it would be a little more lenient, like they would let me in because I, ~you know, ~I'm a nice guy or something, but No, they like, you really have to be from the get go, be able to show that you can do what they're doing. So that's the thing.

Benjamin: I think it took me a while to learn that, but, if you can get just even figuring out what exact role you want, then that's a good step because from there on, then you know what you need to do at least.

Silvia: Yeah, for sure. thank you so much for your time. This was a great conversation.

Benjamin: Yeah, I had a great time. Thank you.

Erin: Hey everyone. It's Erin from out of Architecture. If you find these stories inspiring and are looking for guidance, clarity, or just need someone to talk to about where you are in your career, [00:40:00] please know that we offer 30 minute consultations to talk about what may be next for you. If you're interested, head to out of architecture.com/scheduling to book some time with us.

Jake: Hey everyone. It's Jake from Out of Architecture. We love hearing your stories, but we know there's more out there that we've still yet to experience. If you or someone you know would be a good fit for the podcast and has a story about taking their architecture skills beyond the bounds of traditional practice, we'd love to hear it.

Jake: Send us an email at tangents@outofarchitecture.com.

Silvia: Thanks for listening to our podcast, new episodes every two weeks. See you then