Challenging Traditional Architecture with Intelligent City’s Kristin Slavin
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Kristin: [00:00:00] we are making these huge impacts in the industry with the mass timber.

Kristin: work that we were doing, we were influencing international building code, we were setting precedents,~ like,~ it was, it was amazing, but I just ~sort of ~saw how,~ like,~ maybe the rest of my career would be 10 buildings max,~ um,~ not even,~ right,~ not even 10 buildings. ~So, ~my impact personally would have been fairly limited,~ um,~ had I stayed In that role and at that size company. ~Um, ~and so when I was looking for something else, I was really looking at how do I scale that impact? How do I,~ um,~ try something a little bit different? I want to stay in mass timber. I believe in this. I want to, ~you know, ~think about sustainability every day. I want to,~ um, you know, ~bring this to the broader market.

Introduction to Tangents by Out of Architecture
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Silvia: Welcome to Tangents by Out of Architecture. Out of Architecture is a career resource network helping designers apply their incredible talents in untraditional ways. We're highlighting some of our favorite stories from the amazing people we've met along the way. We will hear how they created a unique career path for themselves from the wide variety of skills and talents they [00:01:00] developed in and out of architecture.

Silvia: Our guest today, Kristen Slavin architect and director of product at intelligence city. Shares her experiences finding her own path in architecture. Working at the forefront of mass timber construction. We'll hear about how her roles have evolved over time and the impact she has had in pushing the boundaries for quality affordable housing. Thank you for listening, and I hope you find your own unique career paths.

Silvia: And to get started, How would you describe yourself in three words? I

Kristin: am persistent, I'm curious,~ um,~ and type A.

Silvia: Oh, I love it. ~Um, ~I can't wait to see those words come through your story. And what is your background in

Kristin: architecture?

Kristin: Yeah, so I was trained as an architect. ~Um, ~I have my master's degree from University of Oregon. I worked in traditional architecture for a few years coming out of school,~ um,~ and have my license in Oregon. ~So, you know, ~the beginning of my career was pretty traditional, I would say. ~Um, ~but [00:02:00] I also graduated grad school in 2010 when the economy in Portland in particular was not particularly good at the time.

Kristin: ~Um, you know, ~we were still ~kind of ~in the recession,~ uh,~ at that moment. ~So. ~Yeah, I ~kind of ~learned a lot quickly about how businesses, the business of architecture is run and how people make decisions about staffing and things like that as, as ~you know, ~it was a roller coaster of ~sort of ~boom and bust a little bit.

Transition from Traditional Architecture to Kaiser Path
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Kristin: And,~ um,~ yeah, so fairly quickly, I guess, you know, around~ I guess, you know, ~three years into my career, I decided to, to switch over to Kaiser Path, which was definitely not traditional. ~Um, ~and from there, it's just ~kind of~ gone off in its own direction.

Silvia: ~Uh, ~where are you

Kristin: now these days?

Current Role at Intelligent City
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Kristin: ~Uh, ~so right now I'm director of product at Intelligent City up in Vancouver, Canada.

Kristin: And can you

Silvia: let our listeners know a little more about,~ uh,~ Intelligent City, what they're making and what

Kristin: your role looks like?

Exploring the Work of Intelligent City
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Kristin: Yeah, so Intelligent City is a housing technology company. We are ~um, ~developing products, building products. ~So, um, you know, ~we define, we define products [00:03:00] specifically as building typologies that fit within certain performance categories, specifically the way that code typically breaks down,~ um,~ to meet, ~you know, ~certain requirements for safety and, and things like that.

Kristin: ~Um, ~and then, ~you know, ~different building typologies. So our focus is our courtyard,~ um,~ we would focus on housing. So our focus is on courtyard,~ um,~ housing, double loaded corridor typology, of course, very typical, and then a sort of point tower condition, which all have different structural implications. And then we manufacture the superstructure and envelope of the building,~ um,~ using mass timber, and it's all prefabbed in our factory,~ uh,~ here in British Columbia.

Kristin: And,~ uh,~ yeah, so we're responsible for really everything from design of the building, the whole building, through to manufacturing of the core and shell of the building, and then installation of that core and shell. And then in partnership with the GC, RCM will, ~you know,~ be there through construction as the architect of record as well, in some cases, not always, to really see it through.

Kristin: Do you work with architects,

Silvia: or do you ~kind of ~replace the role of the architect traditionally?

Kristin: ~Um, ~we do both. [00:04:00] So we have an architectural firm that is associated with Intelligent City called LWPAC, and they are,~ um,~ architect of record often, and it's,~ uh, ~ ~you know, ~efficient that way, just because. It's they're part of our company, essentially, and know the system very well, know the constraints and sort of design space.

Kristin: ~Um, ~but we also, ~you know, ~work in a design assist role with other architects in, especially in different jurisdictions where we may not have the experience or the license or whatever it may be. Gotcha.

Role as Director of Product at Intelligent City
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Silvia: And as director of product,~ uh,~ what are you responsible

Kristin: for? Yeah, so my role is really to,~ um,~ again,~ like,~ look at those sort of categorized buildings into commonalities that we can then build,~ um,~ the same set of building systems for, for any number of buildings within that category.

Kristin: ~So, ~I'm working on the product definition, looking at where, ~you know, ~certain thresholds exist within buildings to,~ um,~ sort of transition from one type to another. ~Um, ~and then working with the building systems team on the manufacturing side to really develop. Up those building systems,~ um,~ in our prefab, ~you know, ~manufacturing facility to meet the needs of that market.

Kristin: ~So, ~for [00:05:00] example,~ like, uh, ~a 4 story, ~you know, ~apartment building,~ um,~ using mass timbers can be. Pretty different from an 18 story building from a performance standpoint. ~Um, ~and so we, ~you know, ~think about those as 2 different products. This is really cool.

Comparing Past Experiences and Current Role
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Silvia: ~Um, ~when you compare it to your past experiences as an architect,~ like,~ what are the biggest changes?

Silvia: And ~like, ~what excites you about, like, where you are today and how you're working?

Kristin: Yeah, ~I mean,~~ ~the biggest difference is really that we're trying to change the way that architecture works. ~Um, ~it's,~ uh,~~ ~~you know, ~we're really trying to pre define a lot of the variables that Ultimately, we don't really need to define over and over again in a building.

Kristin: ~Um, ~right now, buildings are very bespoke, one off projects, little pieces of art that, or big pieces of art that we, that we, ~you know, ~design and build and,~ um,~ and, and it's a relatively lengthy and expensive and ~sort of ~painful, can be painful process. ~Um, ~and, ~you know, ~I think there's a lot of frustration with the way that that's going,~ um,~ within the profession.

Kristin: Fashion, but also just generally it [00:06:00] takes forever to get a building built. We need more housing, things are too exensive. ~Um, ~and so what's very different about what I'm doing specifically is really looking at the systems and trying to repeat the systems as much as possible while remaining flexible, on building, ~you know, ~size, and shape to some extent and things like that.

Kristin: But just putting a bit more structure around how we design and predefining a lot of those really difficult interfaces between envelope and structural and, ~you know, ~structure and core and like the things that aren't really that fun to figure out over and over again. ~Um, ~and a lot of people worry that, ~you know, ~a lot of architects worry that we're taking away creativity space or we're, ~you know, ~we're taking over design or something like that.

Kristin: ~Um, ~and while there are constraints to building with a more systematized approach. I would like to think that what this does is actually opens up brain space to allow for the more creative side. So you can spend a little bit more time in schematic design, and you can spend a little bit more time thinking about, ~you know, ~the aesthetics of the building because the details are already worked out, and we've already got a system designed for it, and we can manufacture that off of our line.[00:07:00]

Kristin: Yeah, I find

Silvia: that that happens a lot with criticisms about ~like ~the way that when there's ever like someone's confronted with change, and they have a criticism, and it's usually like the exact opposite of what one we're trying to do. And two, what like actually happens, it's like, they're afraid of one thing, but it's ~like, ~no, we're trying to solve that by like doing this.

Silvia: ~I mean, ~those are very vague terms, but ~like, ~it feels very familiar what you're

Kristin: saying. And,

Career Progression and Transition to Sidewalk Labs
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Silvia: ~uh, ~how did you get to where you are today? Like,~ Like, ~what is the progression? ~Like, ~I assume it wasn't just,~ uh, like, ~architecture in a traditional office and then director of product at Intelligent

Kristin: City.

Kristin: Yeah, no, it definitely wasn't. so I worked for, again, a few traditional, a couple of traditional firms,~ um,~ didn't really, what I was finding frustrating was the sort of more of the business practice of architecture and how much control we actually didn't have over decision making in, in projects.

Kristin: And,~ um, ~ ~you know, ~everyone I worked with was really great and had great ideas and, and strong ideals and things like that. [00:08:00] But ultimately it came down to,~ um, You know, ~the money, the developer's ideal. ~Like, ~you don't, you, you're essentially there to serve the developer as your client. ~Um, ~and you're ~sort of ~having to, ~you know, ~go, go along with whatever they, their goals are for the project, which if you're good at picking clients can be okay, but sometimes, especially in a downturn, you ~sort of ~have to find work where you can get it.

Kristin: And it doesn't always align with The values that you'd like to bring to the table? ~Um, ~so I went to go work at Kaiser Path, which is in Portland. ~Um, ~it's a very small design, developed design build firm. ~Uh, ~we were. ~You know, ~around seven people at any given time. ~Um, ~and my role was when I came in as really as an architect,~ um,~ we were doing architecture under path architecture and then development and GC,~ um, you know, ~being the GC in construction under Kaiser path and Kaiser group so we were finding our own land,~ um,~ we were finding investors, we were doing the pro formas, pulling together bank funding,~ um,~ and ultimately what that meant is that we could design buildings and develop buildings the way that we wanted [00:09:00] to, and it gave us a lot more control,~ um,~ which really allowed us to explore things like mass timber, which is, ~you know, ~now what my, my expertise is in,~ um,~ but we were all,~ um,~ Very open with each other.

Kristin: ~Um, ~I got experience in the whole spectrum of the built environment and what it takes to actually build a building. ~Um, ~found a lot of joy and interest in the development side, but also really enjoyed being on site every day when, ~you know, ~we were in construction and,~ uh,~ and working with our contractors to figure out details.

Kristin: ~Um, ~so I think it was, it was a great experience. I was there for about six years and really learned a lot. It was also, ~you know, ~The type of place where you either sink or you swim, you're getting thrown in the deep end,~ um,~ and that worked really well for me,~ um,~ and it doesn't necessarily work really well for everyone, but for me, it was like freedom and autonomy and just, ~you know, ~figuring stuff out with a really supportive team,~ um, you know, ~it was okay to make mistakes sometimes, and you just gotta like work through it together,~ um,~ and yeah, so it was really, it was really it.

Kristin: supportive and immersive, I would say, in ~like ~[00:10:00] getting buildings built and allowed us to do research and build buildings that we, I, I strongly believe we would not have been able to build had it been under a traditional model. I don't think anyone in their right mind would have said,~ like,~ let's build Carbon 12, which was this eight story mass timber building when that wasn't even allowed and took a lot of effort and work and ~sort of ~educating and.

Kristin: ~You know, ~permitting hurdles and all sorts of stuff. ~Um, ~a developer just wouldn't, a typical developer would just not have taken on that risk without the conviction that we had. ~Um, ~I like to think about it as ~like, ~the blissful ignorance that we didn't know what was coming. And so we just went for it. ~Um, ~and it worked out really well, ~you know, ~it was a great building, a great project.

Kristin: ~Um, ~from there I went to go work at Sidewalk Labs, which,~ um,~ at the time was based out of New York. And,~ uh, you know. ~Again, Kaiser path was great. I love the team, but we were very small and we were ~sort of ~doing one project every 3 to 5 plus years. And just, I ~sort of ~saw, ~you know, ~we are making these huge impacts in the industry with the mass timber.

Kristin: work that we were doing, we were influencing international building code, we [00:11:00] were setting precedents,~ like,~ it was, it was amazing, but I just ~sort of ~saw how,~ like,~ maybe the rest of my career would be 10 buildings max,~ um,~ not even,~ right,~ not even 10 buildings. ~So, ~my impact personally would have been fairly limited,~ um,~ had I stayed in that.

Kristin: In that role and at that size company. ~Um, ~and so when I was looking for something else, I was really looking at how do I scale that impact? How do I,~ um,~ try something a little bit different? I want to stay in mass timber. I believe in this. I want to, ~you know, ~think about sustainability every day. I want to,~ um, you know, ~bring this to the broader market.

Kristin: And Sidewalk Labs at the time was, ~you know, ~we were starting up a prefab,~ um,~ Manufacturing company using mass timber and it was,~ um,~ really exciting and I, it was there for about two and a half years. ~Um, ~it was a really great experience. Ultimately, we, ~you know, ~didn't move forward with that, with that,~ um,~ project or with that team.

Kristin: ~So, um. ~Yeah, so then I was ~sort of ~looking for my next role and just knew that I did not want to go back into traditional architecture. ~Like, ~I just couldn't get myself to do it. I interviewed with great companies and I, ~you know, ~loved [00:12:00] the people I was talking to, but I just was, I'm just not ready. And I don't know if I'll ever be ready to go back to a traditional model because I just think, ~ um, you know, ~there's just better ways to do it.

Silvia: And then from there, did you go to Intelligent City?

Kristin: Yep. So from there, I went to Intelligent City,~ um,~ where I'm at now.

Current Work and Impact at Intelligent City
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Kristin: I've been here for about a year and,~ um,~ yeah, leading this product work, sticking with the prefab mass timber stuff. ~Um, ~it's, it's been really exciting. And again,~ like,~ I think the impact that it could make in this type of working could make, could make a big impact.

Kristin: Difference for sustainability within the built environment, especially embodied carbon, but also we're designing our buildings to pass the past standards. So quite a high level of operational sustainability as well. And, but also for cost and just ~sort of ~delivery of housing, because that is our focus. ~So.~

Kristin: ~You know, ~I'm hoping that we're able to get to, ~ uh,~ a paradigm where we're not, ~you know, ~taking five years to build housing for people when we desperately need it now,~ um,~ and we're, ~you know, ~really able to deliver very high quality, beautiful buildings that are really high performing, in a [00:13:00] much shorter period of time with much more predictability and just, ~you know, ~is, is far more, reliable system.

Silvia: Yeah, absolutely. The projects do go on like so long. It's like so much of your own life that goes into that project for it to have such a long lead time and then absolutely with the housing,~ like,~ it doesn't help anybody right now when it comes in five years. I'm curious, are your Clients, the ones that are for these projects now.

Silvia: Are they also developers then?

Kristin: Yeah, our clients are typically developers. ~Um, ~we have been brought into projects with, ~you know, ~from GCs or architects that are interested and that's maybe a way in, but we do typically work directly, ~you know, ~for the, for the developer.

Silvia: But it's a little different now because with traditional architecture, like I've done developer projects as well, it's always like how cheap and not cheap, how like cost efficient and ~uh,~ like how small, like how, what is the max number of units we can put into this house,~ like,~ or into this building [00:14:00] for the Market rate pricing and we build it as affordably as possible.

Silvia: And I'm like, I, I, I still can't afford these homes. They're not that nice because they're always like a little bit small. I'm like, I'm, I'm from New York City, so they're always small. And so it like. It also just conflicted with myself. It's like I'm building buildings that I can't afford to live in and like that.

Silvia: I assume now if the developers you're working with are aligned with

Kristin: your goals as well. Yeah, so we're seeing developers that are really driven by ~Um, ~ESG goals, like some of them, especially here in Canada, have really strong mandates, ESG mandates from their investors, which is,~ uh, you know, ~an interesting shift that I, I hadn't, I haven't seen really in the, until the last year or so is really,~ um, ~ ~um, ~they, they truly have to meet certain sustainability and social goals and,~ uh,~ in order to keep their funding, right?

Kristin: So they, there's no give on that. ~Um, ~and, and that's super interesting. I know there's,~ um, you know, ~an increasing amount of [00:15:00] legislation coming through and ~sort of ~mandates from cities to,~ um,~ at least, ~you know, ~track carbon or, or push,~ um,~ for more sustainable buildings. ~So, ~I think what's hard for developers right now is, one, the cost of steel and concrete has gone through the roof since the pandemic.

Kristin: ~Like, ~it's. It's crazy how expensive it is. ~Um, ~it's not just those two, but that's a big driver of ~sort of ~projects right now. It's obviously cost. It always has been, always will be. ~Um, ~but also, ~you know, ~it's really hard to meet these sustainability goals with the traditional way of building. ~Like, ~you simply can't do it in some cases.

Kristin: ~Um, ~and so a lot of, ~you know, ~the conversations we're having is ~like, ~we don't know how to meet our mandates. Can you help us? ~Um, ~and we are, to be fair, like we're still trying to fit as many units as we can into whatever the zoning envelope is, because in some ways, That's also how you get to, ~you know, ~less rent.

Kristin: It's like rent per square foot is how they think about things. And so if you can get a two bedroom out of, ~you know, ~650 square feet and it still functions really well, instead of 900 square feet,~ um,~ that's a lot [00:16:00] of rent that you're saving because they're still having to answer to appraisers and their banks and things like that too, to make the pro formas work.

Kristin: ~So, um, ~we're still trying to do that. ~Um, ~I don't know if it's necessarily bad, but what I, I think we're doing differently is because we're taking a product approach, we are doing unit design before we even look at projects. ~Um, ~we, so we have within each of our typologies, a, an apartment library that we're pulling from.

Kristin: And ~so, you know, ~we've been. lucky enough,~ um,~ based on, ~you know, ~where we're at,~ um,~ in, in business and in the world to have spent time thinking about the functionality of ~living. Um, ~ living. and our, our goal is to really get to,~ um,~ space and cost efficient living, but in a super functional way. ~So. You know, ~a good example of this is that we've been really pushing for more courtyard housing,~ um,~ here, and it's not a typical model.

Kristin: ~Uh, ~it might sound like, oh, but you're getting, ~you know, ~twice as many corridors or something. Like, why would you ever do that? But the reality is 1, you get cross ventilation through your unit because you have windows on 2 sides, which is. like super nice for when you're [00:17:00] living there. ~Um, ~two, you get windows on two sides.

Kristin: So you don't have a ton of ~like ~these interior corridors trying to get like from the core into your actual living space, wasting 150 square feet of just like hallway. ~Um, ~and, and you can really get, ~you know, ~like bedrooms on two sides and your living room and kitchen and go all the way through and it's just a much more pleasant experience.

Kristin: ~So, um, ~but even in our double loaded corridor buildings or, or point towers, ~you know, ~we're really pushing and focusing on unit design because the number one goal of our buildings is high, a high level of livability. ~Like, ~we don't want people to live in bad space. It's just not, we don't need to, like, why would we, right?

Kristin: ~Um, ~so when we talk to developers, ~you know, ~this is a big part of what we're talking about is. is just like really getting them to a level of efficiency and livability that they're, they're not, ~you know, sort of ~seeing out of their traditional model right now with,~ um, ~ ~you know, ~just more traditional thinking, they're used to these sort of interior corridor type apartments and haven't really thought about, ~you know, ~space [00:18:00] creatively and how to actually use it well and what people, ~you know, ~need.

Kristin: ~So, um, ~yeah, I think we're just coming at it with a bit of ~like, ~research background, right? And ~like, ~and,~ uh, ~ ~um, ~an existing library that we can pull from rather than having to think about it from scratch. Yeah. I

Silvia: love that because you wouldn't be able to do that on a normal project, ~like ~to spend that time and research and ~like, uh, ~and also like the resources that actually make that productive and then present that to your client.

Silvia: So you're in a place where I feel like you're empowered with the tools and support to actually create something you want to, and that sounds amazing.

Kristin: it's true that on a traditional project you wouldn't have the time to think through this, right? ~Um, ~and, and that's just due to the industry and the fee structures and all of that.

Kristin: ~Um, ~but by thinking about it up front and having this library, it means we don't have to think about it at all on projects. So it's actually saving us time in the design phase because we already know what works and what doesn't. We can pull from that. We don't have to, ~you know, You know, ~start from a blank page.

Kristin: ~Um, ~and it's just like ~kind of ~doing that upfront work is, is enabling faster [00:19:00] delivery of design, ~you know? ~So it's, it's, it's interesting that, ~you know, ~people often say like, oh, well,~ like, well,~ we wouldn't be able to do that on a project. ~Like, ~yeah, but if you did it before a project, you would never have to do it on a project.

Kristin: ~You know, ~it would just not even be an issue. ~I mean, ~

Silvia: from your experience, what do you think is the resistance to like. All of these solutions sound very logical, right? ~Like, ~they sound great. Why wouldn't we want to do this? But,~ like,~ sometimes it's both, right? It's ~like, ~the leadership doesn't want to take it on, they're happy where they are, even though it doesn't really make sense,~ like,~ financially speaking for them, I guess what I'm asking is that I don't think that your career sounds untraditional either, like you're building buildings and you're trying to find a efficient way to actually make it happen.

Silvia: ~So, like, ~what do you think is like the disconnect?

Kristin: I think that the piece of it that's pretty not traditional is that upfront work that I'm doing. So my role is really,~ um,~ not, it's not primarily client facing. I'm not primarily dealing with permitting. I'm not, ~you know, ~I'm not doing this sort of CA [00:20:00] work that an architect would need to do.

Kristin: ~Um, ~and I think what's really, what's ~Like, ~yes, I'm designing for buildings, which is a traditional architectural problem. ~Um, ~but we're doing in a really non traditional way where we're ~sort of ~thinking about what we're able to manufacture, our manufacturing space, our design space, and how those things work together.

Kristin: ~Um, ~and ~so, ~because we're thinking about all of this up front and really working through these details, it should be taking risk off of developers, right? ~Um, ~I think there's still a perception that. ~You know, ~it's prefab, and it's mass timber, and we're not sure what to do with that. We've never built with that before, so it's riskier.

Kristin: But the goal really is to de risk the problem,~ um,~ because we're figuring it out up front. We're doing testing. ~You know, ~we have in Canada, it's called CSA certification. So we have certification to prove that our panels and,~ um, you know, ~our floor cassettes and our envelope panels meet the requirements.

Kristin: The standards that we need to meet here. ~Um, ~and it works across borders as well. ~So, you know, ~I think,~ um,~ that's a bit nontraditional where in a typical project, even though developers currently think about it as less, maybe less risky, it's actually ~like, ~really. [00:21:00] It's crazy the way that we built, which is ~like, you know, ~let's just bring in a bunch of raw materials and ~like ~build something up from scratch and hope it works.

Kristin: ~Like, you know, I mean, ~the design is there, ~but you know, ~how do you ensure envelope tightness when you're framing walls in the rain in January in Vancouver, BC, like it's miserable, ~you know? Um, ~so I just,~ uh,~ yeah, I think, I think that's a non traditional piece. I also think that. ~You know, ~just the prefab approach does require a different type of contract, a different type of understanding with the developer.

Kristin: ~Um, ~so we're doing design build contracts. ~Um, you know, ~it is, again, from their perspective, it's, it's a little bit odd just because they feel like it's a sole source. situation and they don't, ~you know, ~people don't typically like that. They want competition so that, ~you know, ~drives the prices down. ~Um, ~but what we're trying to do is get to a really efficient place from the start.

Kristin: And because of all of this,~ um,~ information, we also have our own software tool that generates what we're going to manufacture. We can also give them really high level of cost confidence on our side. And. While it might [00:22:00] not be the lowest cost per square foot based on, ~you know, ~a stick built building versus a prefab mass timber building, we can also show them, yeah, but the life cycle cost is going to be less because the performance is so much better.

Kristin: And also, if you look at it per door, because you, ~you know, ~we've. ~You know, ~convinced you to go to a courtyard typology, you get better unit economy economics out of it. Therefore, you have 10 percent or 20 percent more units per door. It's actually less than a traditional build. ~Um, ~and so we're able to ~sort of ~work with them on that analysis.

Kristin: And I don't think that's something typically like an architect would do,~ um,~ that would, ~you know, sort of ~be left up to the developer and the developer who's running the Performa is not. Always design focus person, right? So they might not have these creative solutions. ~Um, ~so being able to ~sort of ~bridge that gap is, is pretty important.

Kristin: And I would say,~ like,~ not typical. Yeah, absolutely.

Silvia: That's probably part of,~ like,~ the roadblocks, right? That everyone is looking out for themselves and a completely separate entity that aren't sharing,~ like,~ there's not clear communication flowing through and they're not even, like. Benefiting from what skill sets they have.[00:23:00]

Silvia: It sounds like what you described when you worked at. ~Uh, ~was it Kaiser? ~Um,~ yeah, where everyone could work closely together and it sounded like it was really

Kristin: supporting that. Yeah, absolutely. ~Um, I mean, ~I sat right next to. My friend Taylor, who was the GC,~ um,~ on the project and I would just be like, Hey, Taylor,~ um,~ how would you do this?

Kristin: ~Like, ~I'm trying to drive this detail and I think this is the way I would do it, but I don't know how you would do it. And we would just talk through it. And it was great. ~Um, ~there were no barriers at all. We were controlling the proforma. We were finding the money. So it was also high risk, high reward sort of situation.

Kristin: ~Um, ~but because we knew You know, the ins and outs of the pro forma, we also knew which levers to pull on in order to ~sort of ~get the project within, ~you know, ~the costs that we need or,~ um,~ think about things, ~you know, ~in a holistic way, rather than just ~sort of, ~yeah, like you said,~ like,~ in our silo. That's

Silvia: another thing I feel like,~ um,~ and on traditional jobs, like thinking outside the box is very much encouraged and sharing information to enable you to come up with those solutions is also encouraged.

Silvia: ~Like, ~and I feel like for some reason, it's so hard to do that [00:24:00] in ~like ~a lot of offices, like they don't share it. Any information, sometimes it's really hard to find,~ like,~ previous,~ um,~ projects that have been done. ~So, like,~ I think you've always had frustration where it's just ~like, ~you're not being efficient with the way you work, and therefore our time is being

Kristin: wasted.

Kristin: Yeah, absolutely. ~Um,~ I think it probably somewhat comes down to fee structure, honestly. ~Like, ~we're not, architects talk about or ~sort of ~propose based off of, ~You know, ~how much time is this going to take? Who's going to be on it? What's their hourly rates like, or percentage of construction or something like that, and,~ um,~ what, what maybe we should really be talking about is the value we're creating as a profession and ~sort of ~trying to talk about and tap into the value side of the equation, rather than just here's our service.

Kristin: And then ultimately clients are like,~ well,~ great, I want to pay less. So do less service. And then you get, ~you know, ~your time gets cut and you just ~sort of ~run into these issues where you're not able to really. Create a good system for yourself. And if we were working off of a [00:25:00] value based approach,~ um,~ I think, ~you know, ~we would probably be incentivized internally to really create good systems and be more efficient and share that communication because the faster we do it, the, ~you know, ~the more fee we get,~ um,~ and we're creating the same value or maybe even more value because you're ~sort of, ~again, ~sort of ~thinking about things in advance and working through these hard problems before you, ~you know, ~need to.

Kristin: Yeah, definitely.

Silvia: I can see the problems with,~ like,~ just thinking through everything in,~ like,~ billable hours, but then I feel like there's also a disconnect in the way that,~ um,~ companies are run because there's so many things that are unbillable as well. You mentioned that,~ um,~ in that previous role that you might, if you're lucky,~ uh,~ build 10 buildings in your lifetime.

Silvia: How many buildings do you think you'll get to now in this role?

Kristin: Oh, that's a good question. ~Um. I mean, ~we're trying to ramp up to a million plus square feet a year out of this one factory. ~Um, ~and, ~you know, ~with goals of going beyond that. So I might not directly work on any projects or one or [00:26:00] two projects, ~you know, ~at a time or something like that.

Kristin: ~Um, ~but I, I would like to think that I could impact, ~you know, ~hundreds of projects. So the goal for me now at this point is not just ~like. ~me putting my stamp on something. I don't have that Starkitect type of drive or approach in me.

Driving Force and Influence in Architecture
---

Kristin: My drive is really driven. It is more about like, how do we get to, ~you know, ~a better, I don't know, a better built environment for everyone,~ um,~ economically and sustainably and just from a living perspective.

Kristin: ~So, ~yeah, I think I don't need my name on it. I don't need to have it, ~you know, ~be written up necessarily. I would love for there just to be a lot of buildings that I have helped influence.

Silvia: Yeah, it sounds like all the work you're doing will directly influence all of them, and also make it easier to build them as well, right?

Silvia: So they might not even have been a project at one point.

Kristin: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

The Power of Persistence
---

Silvia: ~Um, ~I really love the words you shared,~ uh,~ persistent. That's, I think that's the first time I've heard that one. ~Uh, I mean, ~curious, we get a lot, ~you know, ~we're all architects, we're doing untraditional things. ~Um, ~and type A is also a fun one.

Silvia: But how has the persistence [00:27:00] come through? Like, do you just keep going until you find the answers you

Kristin: need. Yeah, basically, I just can't put a problem down until I figure it out. ~Um, ~and that goes for like anything in my life, but,~ um,~ it was not, it's not just architectural problems.

Journey to Sidewalk Labs
---

Kristin: It's also like how I find, like how I, how, how I got to Sidewalk Labs, for example, I'm pretty sure it was persistence that got me there. ~Um, ~when, ~you know, ~I. Was starting to look for work. I did, ~you know, ~started thinking about my next steps. I wasn't applying to very many companies. In fact, I only applied to Sidewalk Labs because I was in a position where.

Kristin: I really liked my job. I didn't have,~ like,~ a need to leave. ~Um, ~it was just like,~ well,~ if I can find something that, ~you know, ~gets me to this next step in my career,~ like,~ I'm happy to go for it, but I'm not gonna,~ like,~ go randomly apply to a bunch of jobs that I don't even really want. ~Um, ~and so when I applied for Sidewalk,~ um,~ I, Applied for a role in Toronto where we were doing a big project there.

Kristin: ~Um, ~I had no experience in Toronto, but,~ um,~ my, my [00:28:00] partner is dual citizen. His family, his dad said his family's from there. So we're like, Oh, it might be fun to, ~you know, ~live near family and, and,~ um,~ check out a new, ~you know, ~part of the continent. And,~ um,~ basically like fairly quickly, they said,~ well, you know, ~we really ~kind of ~want someone.

Kristin: In this position who has experience with the city, ~like ~knows the politics there. It's really ~like ~going to be a, ~you know, ~pushing things through permitting and that type of sort of political position. ~Right? Um, ~so I don't think you're the right fit, but, ~you know, ~your background is really interesting and maybe we can keep talking.

Kristin: We were going to New York where there, where Sidewalk was headquartered,~ um,~ for a friend's birthday party. And,~ uh,~ and so I was like, Hey,~ um,~ I'm going to be there anyway. Do you mind if I just pop in and talk to you in person? ~You know, ~and there was no job on the table at the time. It was just kind of like, Hey, I'm going to be here anyway.

Kristin: ~Um, ~and so I ~sort of ~talked my way in, met with,~ uh,~ Kareem Khalifa, who's an amazing person. And he was like, Hey, so ~like. ~What are you doing here? ~Like, you know, ~why are you interested? And so we just talked for a while. And then,~ um,~ yeah, it was just a great meeting. It was kind of like, I told him everything I've been talking about [00:29:00] with you and what I was looking for.

Kristin: And,~ um,~ he was like, okay,~ well,~ that's interesting. ~You know, ~maybe. We'll think about this and ~like, ~if there's something that pops up and then I just, ~you know, ~stayed in touch with him, I bugged him over LinkedIn,~ like,~ I was just like, I think this is it. ~Like, ~I think this is the thing for me, ~you know, ~so I just need to make this happen.

Kristin: And, ~you know, ~ultimately it did and, ~you know, ~they offered me a position and it was a great role like it was exactly ~kind of ~what I was looking for and the team was great. So I think that kind of persistence is not something that like maybe a traditional job seeker would think to do or, I don't know.

Kristin: I think maybe it was a combination of ~like ~the focus that I had and, and me just ~like ~not being willing to put something down when I, when I feel like it's the right thing. but yeah, but then yeah, and in work also the same way,~ like,~ I just have to work a problem until it's like really good. ~Like, ~really, the solution is very good.

Silvia: I've heard that before. Like you can't,~ like,~ your mind just keeps going until ~like, ~you, you figure it out. ~Um, ~I love the persistent story you had about ~like, ~getting that job at Sidewalk Labs. I have ~like, ~I, ~you know, ~[00:30:00] like the term like manifesting something, like I, I have ~like ~mixed feelings about it.

Silvia: Like how do you manifest something? ~Like ~do you just say ~like, ~to the world, I want this to happen, but. I think the way that I like have experienced it is more so like what you're saying about the focus and the persistence and it's like you're you clearly are like it's very clear to you that you want this to happen and you're just going to keep pursuing things that are aligned to that and that ~like.~

Silvia: There's ~like, ~there's no doubt that this is something you want to do. Right? Like, I think other people would be stopped.~ Right? Like, ~You're like, Oh, I'm like, I'm being too pushy or something like that. But I think it's so clear and you're so passionate about it that you're just going to keep pursuing it because it's in front of you almost.

Silvia: ~Right? Like ~something like that.

Kristin: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree with you.

The Role of Networking in Career Progression
---

Kristin: Like the manifesting, like what you want is, is like hard for me to. get my head around, but I agree,~ like,~ and I do think that if you put something out into the world, if you have that clarity and the focus, tell your network,~ like, ~ ~you know, ~tell your friends, talk about it, because you never know who's got a connection, ~you know, ~in, in ~sort of ~the thing that you're trying to [00:31:00] do, or, ~you know, ~even just good ideas to bounce off you.

Kristin: And I think it's ~like, you know, ~maybe we talk about it in terms of ~like ~manifesting your, your like life or whatever you want, ~you know, ~but in reality, it's like your network, ~like ~who's your network and, and talk to them and ~like, you know, ~be willing to be open and a bit vulnerable. And that's really hard for me.

Kristin: Like I'm not a vulnerable person, typically again, type A it's ~like, ~I want to, ~you know, ~have everything like lined up and in order and, um, and in control. ~Right. ~But. I think if you, and I'm still like continually learning this, but if you really, if you're like, have a good network and you just remain open, it's like amazing what will come out of that.

Kristin: Yeah. And I

Silvia: think it's not really ~like, ~I find this person on LinkedIn. I'm going to email them for an interview. They're going to give me an interview and a job. It's more so ~like. ~I'm really interested like I let's connect and ~like ~share our ideas and then they know someone else who's like you would probably love to meet because like you you have a similar interest or things like that and then maybe like months down the line like someone just randomly messages you on [00:32:00] LinkedIn and ~like ~wants to connect like it's never direct it's never a direct like result of I do this and this happens to me it's always like this funny just like the world being connected and slowly like showing you the connections.

Kristin: Yeah, absolutely.

Silvia: I really liked hearing about Intelligent City. ~Um, ~I would love to find out more about you yourself,~ like, uh, ~how you. ~I guess, like, ~what spoke to you? I'm like using really fluffy terms, but ~like, ~that's how it makes sense in my head, but like, how did you,~ like,~ what did you see in Sidewalk Labs or Intelligent City or even,~ um,~ Kaiser Path?

Silvia: ~Like, ~what sparked,~ like,~ your interest in them and you felt that that was something you

Kristin: wanted to pursue? I chose to pursue Kaiser Path,~ um,~ specifically because they were doing development and I was very interested in development. ~Um, ~I was curious about how projects came together. ~Um, you know, ~I was working for, I was actually doing, ~you know, ~mostly public projects before that.

Kristin: ~Um, ~a little bit of developer work, but mostly public work. And I was just really curious about the [00:33:00] sort of financial side of it. ~Um, ~and just ~like, you know, ~how do you make decisions? So again, that was pretty intentional as far as like. where I kind of want to go. But~ kind of ~

The Evolution of Building Systems
---

Kristin: I think what's drawn me to all of these places,~ um,~ along my career has really just been the fact that they're doing something differently.

Kristin: And I, after a few years of working in traditional firms, just knew that I probably, that wasn't the best fit for me. ~Like, ~I'm not a traditional person. I, I enjoy ~sort of ~flexing way beyond my sort of area. I'm learning something new and just ~like, ~going out on a limb and hoping it works out, right? But ~like, ~working really hard to make it,~ um,~ to make it work.

Kristin: And so I think that that, ~sort of, um,~ the doing something different and working in a different way is what's always drawn me to places. And actually,

Silvia: you ~kind of ~mentioned that before that,~ like,~ you're testing things out,~ um,~ there's no, like,~ like,~ precedent really for what you were looking at. You were rewriting,~ like,~ international code.

Navigating the Unknown in Architecture
---

Silvia: So when you're confronted with that much unknown and,~ like,~ no path, How do you work your way through that? Or,~ like,~ is that scary too? [00:34:00]

Kristin: One step at a time. You just gotta take it off in bite sized chunks, right? Yeah, again, like, when we were doing the codes, we didn't really know that we were gonna become the precedent for new building code when we were designing Carbon 12.

Kristin: We just knew that there wasn't a building code to go. to,~ um,~ and so luckily the state of Oregon was very open,~ um,~ and, and has, ~you know, ~their own economic incentive to,~ um, you know, sort of ~support the forestry industry and other things like that,~ um,~ just because of the economy there, but, ~you know, ~they were open to ~sort of ~a pilot approach to permitting through the state rather than just the city.

Kristin: So it was a sort of dual permit process, but we didn't really know what was going to happen. ~Um, ~and so it was really just ~like, ~okay, we want to do this project. How do we do it? First, we have to talk to the city. Great. Talk to the city. They're not,~ like,~ they're not thrilled with it. They're not excited about taking on the risk from the jurisdictional side of,~ like,~ having to approve something that doesn't have any building code around it.

Kristin: Okay,~ well,~ the state of Oregon put out this, ~you know, ~half a page document that said, ~you know, ~cross limited timber needs to be, Considered as like a viable [00:35:00] structural material, but they don't have any ways to go about actually reviewing or approving this. So let's talk to this. ~You know, ~let's talk to the state and the city is ~like, ~great.

Kristin: You should talk to the state. We don't want to, ~you know, ~we don't want to touch this without more guidance and you just ~sort of ~go 1 step at a time and work your way through it.

The Journey to Intelligent City
---

Kristin: I think, ~you know, ~what we're doing now at intelligent city. And what we were doing in sidewalk was really, trying to develop whole new building systems in a prefab way.

Kristin: So it's similar. ~Um, ~I think, ~you know, ~we know, I know a lot more about what it takes to build a building in a more traditional way, even though I would say,~ like,~ mass timber is still not really traditional,~ um,~ just because. Because of the level of collaboration and coordination that it takes,~ um,~ which is wonderful, but I know how difficult it is to build a building because I've been through it and, multiple times and in a company where we were the GC.

Kristin: ~So, like, ~we were feeling those pain points. And,~ um,~ so now that we're developing new systems, that education of that background,~ um,~ experience is really ~sort of ~guiding. Us to the right questions to ask at least. ~Um, ~but it's [00:36:00] still just a matter of ~like,~ alright, let's, okay, we wanna make a prefab building system.

Kristin: Like how do we do that , ~you know, um, ~what do we need? What are the pieces that we need? How do we break this down into some solvable set of problems? And then of course, like every time you think you've solved something, like 10 more questions pop up, but you just ~sort of ~take them one at a time and figure it out as you go.

Kristin: ~Um, ~and I think what it. What it ~sort of ~mandates is remaining flexible in your own mind. ~So, like, ~being aware that your first idea is not your best idea,~ um,~ and that you're gonna have to work through these challenges and that that's okay. ~Um, ~but it's hard and it's ~sort of, you know, ~you're just like battering your own ego over and over again, but ~like, ~it's okay.

Kristin: It's fine. You're just figuring something new out. ~Um, ~but. Also, I think that that openness within yourself allows you to take in other people's ideas and like,~ like, you know, ~working a little bit more collaboratively within your team and externally. so a good, ~you know, ~a good example is just. As we're going through projects right now, we're getting a lot of feedback from GCs across the continent who have different issues in different [00:37:00] areas because labor pools are a bit different.

Kristin: Unionization is different in different areas. ~Um, ~ code is different. ~So, ~how you deal with, for example, fire stopping during construction in a mass timber building in Toronto is different than you do in Vancouver,~ um,~ and is. Very different than you would do in, ~you know, ~Seattle. ~Um, ~and ~so, ~as we're working through these different jurisdictions, we're finding these sort of new pain points or new areas to develop where, we just really need to work collaboratively with people and figure out what their issues are so that you just.

Kristin: Again, chip away at the problem and create a better and better solution.

The Continual Improvement in Architecture
---

Kristin: And I think, one aspect of architecture, which I think all architects recognize, is that you could design forever and never be done, but you just have to put the pen down at some point,~ um,~ and, but when the building's done, it's also, it's also finished, right?

Kristin: And you ~sort of ~have this,~ like,~ okay, this is ~like, ~done now. I can,~ like,~ Set this down and ~like ~walk away from it. ~Um,~ with product, you don't get to do that. ~Like ~, you're just like continually developing the product and it will never stop , it's continual improvement, which is [00:38:00] what I love about it, but also it's.

Kristin: It's,~ uh,~ it's like an endurance game. It's not a sprint. ~Right. ~And I don't think anyone would think about a traditional building as a sprint, but when it comes to like product work over the lifetime of a company,~ um,~ it really, it really ~kind of ~is. But that's a really refreshing

Silvia: way to look at it too, right?

Silvia: That like what I'm designing now will always be evolving as things change versus this is how I built building last time. And I'm going to just copy. Be and redo it again. Like I want to think about buildings as evolving things. So ~like, ~I'm really glad that that's what you're doing.

Kristin: Yeah, I think, ~you know, ~it's.

Kristin: What's great about it is that you can do it incrementally. ~Um, ~and so you can get your, your, your MVP, ~you know, ~your minimum viable product, get it out to the market and then improve from there. ~Um, ~as you're finding more information out, as building code changes, as construction techniques change, et cetera, with one off buildings, it's just ~like, you know, ~again, it's bespoke, like you're starting over again from the beginning.

Kristin: And I don't know, it's just, you don't get that same iterative approach, I would say, unless you're staying, ~you know, um, ~With one company, [00:39:00] potentially with one client for their whole career, right? And you just ~sort of ~learn how they work and, and ~sort of ~iterate on that, but that's pretty rare.

Advice for Aspiring Architects
---

Silvia: I have ~kind of ~a two sided question.

Silvia: I'm wondering what kind of,~ um,~ advice you have for people that like are really interested about what you do and like, how can they start finding opportunities in this space?

Kristin: Yeah, ~I mean, ~I would say the good news is that there are more and more companies trying to do things in a bit of a different way. ~Um, ~so if you're looking to get into something nontraditional, then there are a lot of different avenues. ~Um, ~you could go. into a sort of company like Intelligent City where there's, ~you know, ~it's prefab, it's vertically integrated to, ~you know, ~some extent and, and look for other vertically integrated companies.

Kristin: ~Um, ~if you want to branch out and be a little bit more off the sort of building, buildings path,~ um,~ you could look at tech companies that are working in the built environment space. ~Um, you know, ~there are a handful,~ um,~ and there are more popping up every day that are helping to solve technological problems within, ~you know, ~The built environment within the architecture, profession, et cetera.

Kristin: you could also just think about going [00:40:00] to work for a developer for a little while to see if you like that a little bit better than the architectural side or a contractor even. I think what I have found is that traditional architecture itself doesn't really suit me as its own thing, but I really love the whole process.

Kristin: ~Um, ~and I, and I really enjoy being, ~you know, uh, ~I guess like versatile and being able to like. Speak the language of the contractors and the developers and the architects and sort of like bridging that gap and seeing the whole picture. yeah, I would say like, ~ like, ~go explore, ~you know, um, ~see what works for you and what you actually like and, and just try some stuff.

Silvia: And also what kind of people, maybe you see these qualities in your coworkers, What kind of qualities do you think make up for an architect or a person to really thrive in this kind of nontraditional environment?

Kristin: that's a great question. I think anyone can do it I guess I would say ~like, ~there are some designers who are so design focused, like they just want to design buildings.

Kristin: ~Um, ~and that is an architect. Like you should just stick with that, right? That's a great role for you. ~Um,~ I think if you're interested in. [00:41:00] Other aspects, I'm really interested in,~ like,~ the technical aspects of how buildings go together, you could go work at it in a non traditional, ~you know, ~company like Intelligent City, because a huge part of what we do is highly technical and very, very detailed and, way beyond what an architect would get to, right?

Kristin: ~So, ~I think,~ um,~ it ~sort of ~depends on,~ um, you know, ~your own interests, but I think you could find a path into something adjacent to architecture, almost no matter what, ~you know, ~type of person you are. I have to say,~ like,~ the people I've seen successful in startups in particular, and even at Kaiser Path, which again was pretty,~ um, ~ ~you know, ~self driven, I would say, is that you ~kind of ~have to be okay being a self starter and,~ like,~ not taking a lot of direction and definitely being okay with ambiguity and uncertainty, because.

Kristin: You're not going to know where things are going, and it might take a while for that to become clear, and then you're going to have to work really hard once you do figure out the path to get there. and ~so. ~Yeah, somebody who is very self driven or very,~ like,~ independent,~ um,~ and, ~you know, ~again, willing to ~sort of ~flex out of their comfort zone is, is the type of person who [00:42:00] will thrive in,~ like,~ again, that sort of startup environment that I've, I've been in for a bit now.

Kristin: but ~I mean, ~both at Sidewalk and at Intelligent City, I also am working with people who have never worked in the built environment before,~ um,~ their software. Engineers who have worked on completely different types of software, right? Or they are,~ um, ~ ~you know, ~manufacturing people, like I have friends from Sidewalk who were on a manufacturing team, they were hired, but they've only ever worked on airplanes, right?

Kristin: And ~so, ~but they're really good at manufacturing. And ~so, ~it's,~ um,~ it's, it's really interesting the types of people that you also get to meet when you're doing non traditional work, because it's just, it's just not, it's not your typical architect crowd. It's not even ~like... ~The built in environment crowd, right?

Kristin: It's, any number of people that you might end up working next to and learning from. And I think that's, what's really exciting about it.

Silvia: Yeah, I agree. And it's also great to see,~ like,~ the passion that they have about their own specific,~ uh,~ focus of, focus of work. And it's ~like, ~it's just as rigorous and they have ~like ~this whole wealth of knowledge.

Silvia: You're both contributing together, but it's like a [00:43:00] completely different, group of knowledge that they have, which is also very

Kristin: exciting to see. Yeah, absolutely. And their own processes, right? ~Like, ~I've learned so much from, software engineers about how the process that they use to develop software products.

Kristin: And I've,~ like,~ taken courses on product management for software, right? So try to understand how a different industry is doing. work that is similar to the work that I am doing,~ um,~ and trying to learn,~ like,~ what, what of those processes can I pull in to make our product development better? And how can I actually learn from that industry as a whole in order to ~sort of ~improve ours?

Silvia: Yeah, absolutely. That's another thing that architecture can benefit from is like instead of always looking inward at how we're doing everything and only within the scope of like our architectural software suite, like use other technologies because they are happening much faster than we are as well.

Kristin: Yeah, absolutely. Do you have

Silvia: any advice to your younger self at any point in time in your career, something that you might have [00:44:00] wanted to know at that time,

Kristin: ~Um, ~I think I'm really happy with my career overall. ~So, um, ~I don't think I would change anything, but I think, ~you know, what I've, I guess, ~advice that I've learned for myself now is just to be confident in my own skills and my own passion and interest.

Kristin: ~Um, ~and I think that. ~You know, ~really holding yourself accountable to what you want to do and what you believe in and what you're good at. ~Um,~ it provides clarity for others on where you fit in. ~Um, ~and, and honestly,~ like,~ it's opened more doors. ~Well, ~I. Some say it opens more doors than it shuts, but that's not true.

Kristin: It just shuts the right doors, like shuts doors that you shouldn't even be going into. ~Right. ~And so I think just being, really clear with yourself about what you want out of your career,~ um,~ that'll allow you to find the right path for yourself. And, and it's okay for people to say this isn't the right thing, right?

Kristin: It's okay to have someone say this isn't the right role for you. Great. I know that this isn't the right place for me. ~Um, ~or you can say that too. ~Like, you know, ~you can ~sort of ~explore something and just decide this isn't right. Like I need to change something and then go [00:45:00] change it. So I guess that, that would be the advice is,~ um, you know, ~have confidence in your own feelings, your gut,~ um,~ and also your skills.

Kristin: Yeah, absolutely.

Silvia: You know yourself the best, right? Not someone else, even if they have more experience in that,~ uh,~ role or whatever,~ like,~ they don't know you. Did you get any kind of,~ um, I mean, ~it does sound like your career has gone very well and like maybe almost like smoothly in some ways,~ um,~ or at least that's how it sounds.

Silvia: But were there points in time where people were like, didn't understand what you were doing or like why you were doing like the career choices

Kristin: you had? People constantly don't understand what I'm doing or why I'm doing it. Yeah, my own partner is sometimes like, why are you doing, like, why, I don't, I'm not sure I get why you're pushing so hard on this free path thing.

Kristin: I'm like, okay,~ well, um, ~yeah, so yeah, I, I would say it's, ~you know, ~it's been a, I, I really have enjoyed my career. It has been, Fairly smooth, I would have to say, but it wasn't always. ~I mean, ~it's not always easy. It's I've had a lot of hard days, right? ~Um, ~people constantly are trying to understand why I'm doing what I'm doing [00:46:00] and I, I still second guess myself sometimes,~ like,~ I'm still like, there's a little voice in the back of my head saying,~ like,~ yeah, but you really need to get, ~you know, ~more projects built.

Kristin: Like, much time can you spend on this? ~You know, ~ we need to see something happen in order to ~sort of. ~Keep your career moving and, and all this stuff, but, I think, ~you know, ~what I'm doing, what I'm learning now and what I'm continuing to learn is, is still relevant. ~Um, ~and it's still interesting and I think it's still important.

Kristin: ~So, you know, ~sometimes you just have to, again, just ~like ~trust yourself and, and ~sort of ~go with it. ~Um, ~until it doesn't feel right. And it sounds like you love

Silvia: what you do too. ~So, like, ~what more do you need?

Silvia: definitely. ~Um, ~thank you so much for sharing all of that. It was a really nice conversation and I'm really excited to hear all of it and also for our listeners to get to hear that.

Kristin: thank you so much. It was really nice to speak with you.

Erin: Hey everyone. It's Erin from out of Architecture. If you find these stories inspiring and are looking for guidance, clarity, or just need someone to talk to about where you are in your career, please know that we offer 30 minute [00:47:00] consultations to talk about what may be next for you. If you're interested, head to out of architecture.com/scheduling to book some time with us.

Jake: Hey everyone. It's Jake from Out of Architecture. We love hearing your stories, but we know there's more out there that we've still yet to experience. If you or someone you know would be a good fit for the podcast and has a story about taking their architecture skills beyond the bounds of traditional practice, we'd love to hear it.

Jake: Send us an email at tangents@outofarchitecture.com. Thanks for listening to our podcast, new episodes every two weeks. See you then