[00:00:00] *as architects, we are taught to be problem solvers.*

*We're taught to be able to communicate design. We are,*~* um,*~* taught to be creative with parameters. *~*So, like, *~*we have all these parameters. How are we going to be creative within this space? And, I think that's something that's really valuable for other industries. And so *~*I,*~* my hope is that, *~*you know, as, *~*as the technology *~*and.*~~ ~*Improves that more architects will be skilled in this and be able to jump in the future if needed.*

Welcome to Tangents by Out of Architecture
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welcome to Tangents by Out of Architecture. Out of Architecture is a career resource network helping designers apply their incredible talents in untraditional ways. We're highlighting some of our favorite stories from the amazing people we've met along the way. We will hear how they created a unique career path for themselves from the wide variety of skills and talents they developed in and out of architecture.

Meet Sam Anderson: A Journey from Architecture to Visualization
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~Let me record this. And then, okay, do you go by Sam or Samantha then?~

~Sam, Sam Anderson. ~

Our guest today is [00:01:00] Sam Anderson, 3d artists and founder of her own visualization studio studio ladder. Sam shares her journey from architecture to epic games. To starting her own studio. And she shares wonderful insights along the way. I loved how throughout the conversation she emphasizes the value of kindness, resourcefulness and adaptability in navigating career transitions.

It was actually a really nice reminder while talking to Sam about the kindness that others have shown me in my life to help me get where I am today. So I hope this encourages you to show. Kindness to others and yourself as well.

Positive, Thoughtful, Resourceful
---

~Okay, perfect. And ~ Our first question that we'd like to start with is, how would you describe yourself in three words?

Yeah, I think I would describe myself as positive, thoughtful, and resourceful. I think that the word resourceful is very fun to me because I think that it encapsulates a lot of different aspects. So I think that I find most of my creativity in [00:02:00] the space of being resourceful and that I think that can mean so many different things whether it's education or, ~you know, ~finding a scrap piece of wood and finding a way to use it in my house, but also to even being resourceful with all of the different things in our lives that we're lucky to have and use and utilize.

~So, uh, ~yeah, those are the, I would say the three that kind of encapsulate me.

Yeah, I love the resourcefulness one and how it relates to creativity, and I can't wait to hear more about that.

The Power of Visualization in Architecture
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~Uh, ~what is your background in architecture?

Yeah, I studied architecture at the University of Texas. Growing up, I was always Very interested in art and was a little overachiever like many architects are, and I did really well in math, and so I thought that I might find a path in between those two things, so decided to pursue architecture, went to architecture school, loved it, but was always just much more interested in the visuals of it, [00:03:00] so whenever it came to reviews, I was much more focused on the imagery that I'd be putting up on the wall, and Throughout my internships, I interned at HKS in Dallas and Yaya Architects in Copenhagen, and I was simply always infatuated with learning more about the visual communication of everything.

~So, ~learning how to render with V Ray for competitions, I was over there in the office at HKS,~ like,~ talking to the person doing watercoloring, understanding how they use that to represent their designs, ~you know, ~still to this day using that medium. And so when it came time to graduate and look for a job, I moved to New York and went to a few different spots for both visualization and architecture, ultimately decided to try out architecture.

That's after all, that's what I went to school for.

Sam's Transition: From Traditional Architecture to Epic Games
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And immediately within the first year, I knew that ~architecture.~ Traditional architecture itself was not for me. I worked [00:04:00] at Workshop APD in New York. I love the people there. I love my experience. It was such a formative time for me, but I also knew that working on some of the construction details was not It was interesting to me, something that I was not very good at,~ um,~ and decided that perhaps it was time to explore the visualization path at that point.

Very cool. And then what are you up to now?

Yeah, I've taken quite the turn. So,~ uh, ~after I realized that I didn't want to do architecture, traditional architecture, I started seeking out different visualizations specialist role, so more on the rendering side. And I was in the New York subway one day, and there was a grad student inside of the car that I was in, and I, of course, went up to him and was like, hey, you know, talking to him about our experience, which I later learned isn't something that typically New Yorkers do every day.

But with my Texas [00:05:00] spirit in my,~ uh,~ freshly moved to New York space. I went up to him and he was like, Oh, I know that you've been very interested in visualization at school. You know, shop architects is actually looking for a visualization specialist. So that was my foot in the door for that role. And while there, I started exploring Some of the game engines that are used to represent designs and so I had a another colleague.

We were both really interested in exploring this space so we just really dove in. We started learning Unity and Unreal. I saved up money and built my own computer so I could understand how CPU and GPU work, and at night we're going home and trying to learn more about this technology and how architects could use it to showcase their designs, and Now I've continued to kind of like switch through [00:06:00] different spaces outside of architecture.

So after shop,~ I, um,~ I've been transitioned to Epic Games where I was getting into work with a lot of cool different technology. and helping architects learn, and,~ um,~ I spent three wonderful years there learning so much and doing some technical marketing roles there, and now I have my own visualization studio, and I offer services, including training, consulting, real time rendering,~ um,~ for people so that I can help others, whether they're architects or in different fields and industries, be able to realize their designs.

That's very cool journey. ~Um, ~I imagine that your take on renderings and the way that this technology can be used and ~how it's like, ~especially with the marketing side of things.

The Evolution of Rendering: Beyond Traditional Methods
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Can you describe your approach? Because I think for a lot of people, renderings in an architecture office is just like a few different angles of a [00:07:00] proposed building so the client can understand it better.

But it sounds like that's ~like ~not in the realm of like, it's like you're doing it on a different level.

Yeah, it's a different level and my hope is that this technology can really empower architects. I believe, ~you know, ~we're all artistic to some degree, ~you know, ~whether it is creativity and writing or actually drawing or in drafting. I think we all are. interested in composition. How do we compose, ~you know, ~a space?

How do we compose a drawing, a painting? And I think that with real time rendering, it gives us the ability to quickly produce visuals so that we can spend a little bit more time focusing on that composition. So a lot of tools these days allow you to completely walk through a space. And ~so, you know, ~traditionally it would be.

Here's an image, we need to showcase this to the client, how do we do [00:08:00] that? We take it into, you know, a rendering program, be able to get that. We might design, iterate using that visual fidelity or,~ or~ using that medium. But I think now with this real time rendering, it really opens up the world to how do we creatively and effectively speak about design, so whether it is.

being able to showcase the entire space and how do we showcase that entire space and talk about that entire space and not only empowering architects to be able to show their full design if they want to, or also allow for people who may not fully understand how to read, ~you know, ~drawings and sections and elevations to be able to come into that space and to be able to have.

Authorship in the design to be able to have feedback. And I think that one of the cool things about this too, is that there's so many different industries [00:09:00] using real time rendering, so automotive, fashion, film, games, a lot of these. Industries are using this tool in many different ways, but also, ~you know, kind of ~solve as a problem solving portion of the, I guess, workflow, because they have a problem.

They want to be able to showcase their design. So they're going to visualize it and the real time tool is going to help them. I think in architecture, *it's Super important for us to learn from some of those other industries of how they are showcasing their work and their product because with this tool that is being used in all these different industries, I think it gives us the ability to curate or to go back to what I mentioned earlier to compose the way that we talk about our design.*

*So thinking outside of the box beyond just It a pretty visual, but which I love beautiful visuals. *~*That's my,*~* I love helping people create those things, but also thinking about *[00:10:00] *how can we best showcase that, whether it's lighting coming in through the space and the lighting changing throughout the day, like, how does that make us feel?*

*How will that make the person who will be inhabiting the space feel and being able to showcase that at an earlier phase of the design? So that was a lot, but that was just *~*kind of *~*some of the things that I think is exciting about *~*this, *~*this technology in this space.*

It sounds like a lot more emphasis on the storytelling part of the experience. ~ I can't,~ I imagine, like, when I was doing floor plans, I didn't really,~ like,~ tap into the storytelling part of that very much. But I guess I wish I could,~ like,~ I don't know if I always had, like, the time and space to work in that way, but I do really appreciate that now, like, after moving away from architecture, just, like, how everything is a story.

Yeah, and I, ~and I ~think that hopefully, you know, with everything involving from AI to real time technology, that it can feel a little scary because [00:11:00] there's a lot of unknown there, but I am very positive about it. in that, as designers and with our education in the architecture space, ~that we will take,~ and this is the very resourceful side of me coming on, that we'll take that stuff and be able to utilize it in a way that is going to benefit the field.

~ And so, ~or at least that's my hope. So I do hope that with the technology improving, it becomes a lot quicker and easier for architects who don't have a lot of time to explore storytelling. ~Um, ~my hope is that it will provide very quick solutions for that. In the past with like offline rendering and stuff, it would take days for rendering animation.

And now you can do it in 30 minutes. And yes, there is a level of education needed to be able to produce some of that, but it's getting much easier. And,~ and~ that's something that I'm super passionate about too, is helping architects upskill in the visualization so that they have a platform and can hopefully learn how to do it [00:12:00] quickly and efficiently so that it's not so daunting and that they can start to incorporate it into their own workflows.

Yeah, that's awesome.

Networking and Kindness: Building a Career on Positive Connections
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I'm also curious about,~ like, um, ~from each step in your career path, from,~ like,~ shop to Epic Games, what And even going to shop too, like what were your thoughts or ~like ~what feelings did you have and that like make made you kind of want to ~like ~explore something else or make that step?

Yeah, ~I mean, ~it was scary. I'm not gonna lie. It can be a scary space, but I Always try to stay open minded when it comes to some of these things. I think the ability to learn from others is always going to be there and always going to be so fruitful ~and, ~and play such a strong part in our trajectory and the paths that we take that I had to kind of rely on the things that I would learn when I ~kind of ~jump ~from ~from space to [00:13:00] space will be skills that I can apply in the future in some way.

And so ~I, you know, ~the first part was. Yes, I don't love traditional architecture or being a traditional architect, but I still love architecture and I want to be in the space. And so that first kind of transition to visualization felt a little more like, this is what I want. I'm going after that. The other stuff was a little more happenstance and ~kind of ~came out of me saying yes to opportunities that came my way.

So if you would have asked me when I was 15 years old, if I would wanted to work at an architecture firm, or ~sorry, I, a game,~ a gaming,~ um,~ company in the future, I would have said, absolutely not. ~Like, ~I don't have interest in the gaming space. ~You know, ~I played it. Sims and Roller Coaster Tycoon, probably like other architects out there.

But beyond that, I was not interested in the gaming space. And so it was so funny during my time there to think about it, that I was working at a large [00:14:00] gaming company because it was something I would have never expected. And it felt very scary to leave shop, but I am so thankful that I did. I, ~you know, kind of ~transitioned into.

This technical marketing role, which I didn't even understand what technical marketing was. I still think it can be a confusing term for people who are not in this space. But essentially, we have all these skills that we learn as architects. I think that we can apply them to many different roles. And even if we don't fit the mold of a job listing, I do think that we have the capability to learn and explore and grow.

And so, I~ I ~learned through this process that to say yes to new opportunities and have confidence that I will learn and grow and make the most of it and that it's going to be great and~ just, um,~ there will be hard parts. I'll always be a roller coaster, but trying to always [00:15:00] learn along the way and. Yeah, I think that's, ~you know, ~something that I try to keep in mind as I have kind of like switched in between all of these different spaces.

Is there something like a skill or like a strong part of your personality that you ~kind of ~used or relied on through all of those different experience and then including to opening up your own shop?

Yeah. Oh, ~that's a, ~that's a great question. This one, I think is, ~you know, a term, ~something that I'll say that ~I, you know, ~I'm very lucky to have had the different opportunities that have come my way. I think that kindness is something that was very easy. Truly helpful in each of those. I think that once I moved to Epic, I was meeting a bunch more people.

Like I was speaking at conferences. I was showcasing the products, teaching people how to use Unreal Engine and Twinmotion. And I got to meet so many lovely people [00:16:00] and I just try to always be. So ~it was just my, ~I try to be kind to everyone and I think that goes back to shop and even,~ um,~ workshop and some of my prior jobs

is

the kindness that comes in our days, you know, we're all very busy, we're all frustrated or stressed during the workday, but someone being kind to me is, makes a difference.

my day immediately. And so it is something that's really important to me to ~kind of ~to always be kind to others. And I say that because Whenever you do, ~you know, ~need something or whenever that you're having a hard moment, those precious kind,~ um, I guess, ~moments will mean so much and help carry, lift everyone up, I think.

So like if someone's having a hard day, you're kind to them, it might lift their spirits. And That is like a very, probably, [00:17:00] positive, optimistic outlook on life, but I do think ~that ~that characteristic, having that characteristic throughout this time, has made me meet a lot of wonderful people and stay in touch with those people, and I appreciate it.

guarantee you any kind of kindness that you exude ~is, ~is going to be not detrimental to you and your day, but might make someone else's day and might help in the future. ~So, you know, some of the, ~so for instance, my transition from shop?

to Epic came after I spoke at a conference. So. ~We, ~at Shop, we had put together this virtual reality experience in Unreal Engine, and I had pitched it to Epic for ~a, ~a conference, and they accepted, and me and one of my colleagues,~ uh,~ Emma Fowler, she's great.

We worked so hard on this keynote talk. We talked to like speech coaches, we practiced in our hotel room so many times, [00:18:00] but also throughout that with each new person we met and with each other. We both practice just this level of kindness of being very kind, very thankful to be in that space. And it was after that conference, that talk that Epic then asked me to come on board.

So there was something that I must have done. Both Emma and I had done right in that moment and, ~you know, ~there could have been a lot of different things, but I think that,~ you know, ~personality is always going to have a good play. Hardworking is always going to be a part of it as well, but I like to think that,~ um,~ just being kind to one another can leave a lasting impact.

So when I got that call a couple months later, ~You know, ~it was with someone that I had talked to during the conference and was very kind to in that moment. And that person,~ I guess, ~spoke about that, about ~how, ~how kind I [00:19:00] was. ~Um, ~so I think it's a small little gesture that can go a long way. And that even goes to, ~you know, ~some of the stuff that I'm doing on my own today and helping find new clients.

~It's, ~it's those little impacts. that, ~you know, ~from years ago that are coming back into play into my life now as I move into this independent space.

I really appreciate hearing that. ~Um, ~it's such a good reminder and I think it's really easy to forget when you're feeling like overwhelmed or like overworked to just like ~You know, ~answer things a little quickly or like not, you know, be the most friendly in email exchanges and you're absolutely right.

Like it can make someone else feel better and it probably also makes you feel better too as you go through your day. I asked this and like, it's you, I feel like it's going to come off as like,~ you know, like,~ how do you network, but like ~what,~ what are some like ways that you yourself like showing this kindness that like you find resonate with people because, ~you know, ~sometimes.

Like networking, I guess it might not be the first thing that [00:20:00] people know exactly how to do or like what steps or,~ um,~ acts to take.

I totally get that. I feel like *networking is such a cringe word or can be such a cringe word because it requires putting yourself out there, which is not the best feeling in the world. It like makes my stomach sink a little bit of,*~* um,*~* really put, throwing all, throwing everything out there and seeing what happens and really talking to people.*

*And, *~*you know, *~*some people are great at that. Some people can get out into a space. *~*I, Uh,*~* to be honest, love talking to strangers, put me in a space, and I might be happy to, *~*you know, get a,*~* hear your life story for an hour, but I also know that's not the case for everyone, and in some cases, that's just not possible, like, especially like with, *~*you know, *~*COVID and stuff like those, that may not be an option for everyone, and so something that I do that is really rewarding,*~* um,*~* to me is to not be afraid to reach out to your *[00:21:00] *past.*

So I will email people who've made a impact on me in my life. And sometimes ~Like, ~maybe this is a very weird thing, but I guarantee you, like, if someone wrote me an email from someone I met,~ like,~ five, ten years ago, and had something nice to say,~ like,~ out of the blue, I would be so touched. And so this is something that I hope to ~kind of ~pay it forward in the world.

So, essentially, ~I am, you know, ~whenever I think of someone, And,~ like,~ if someone comes into my brain, I'm like, oh, this reminds me of this person. I should email them and tell them that. Tell them that I thought about them. Tell them that they have had an influence on my life, that it's a positive influence, and not be afraid to tell people that.

~Like, ~there's ~Um, ~so many different instances of this, and~ I had,~ for instance, I had one person,~ um,~ during my time at CHOP who sat across from me. She was in a technical role on the architecture side, a female in a space [00:22:00] with,~ um,~ a team full of men, and she always spoke her mind. I loved it. I was sitting quietly on the other side, and ~we, ~we weren't super close, but hearing, Her in that space and having the confidence and being able to hold her own in a technical role was so inspiring and so I had reached out to her recently and wrote her this email about that, letting her know that I was paying attention.

It was super inspiring for me to see that and hear that and. Letting her know that, I,~ I,~ think she responded very sweetly and just those kind of connections, I think, have helped me find jobs and other things in the future because ~it's, you know, ~we're in a network, you have people in your life, remind them how great they are and remind them that they have made an impact on you and you never know.

[00:23:00] What, ~you know, ~if one day something comes up and they're like, oh, I need a rendering. I need, I want to learn more about this Twinmotion thing. Oh, this person. does this. And so it may feel very weird to ~kind of like ~reach out to all of those little circles, but not only will it make their day, but it will make them think of you in the future.

And so that's something that ~I, ~I tried to remind myself. ~Um, ~I think, you know, another one is using, ~you know, ~some sort of sound like social media. I do find that LinkedIn has been a really wonderful tool for me as I've moved forward. I've gotten ~many, ~many leads, for different things on LinkedIn. So that kind of goes back into reaching out to colleagues and people at your work, where if you don't have their email, you're probably on LinkedIn with them.

And they're~ going to be, they're~ not going to find it weird for you to reach out years later. So,~ um, ~Yeah, that was kind of a long answer ~for, ~for that, but I hope that,~ um, it provides, I hope that that~ provides another option of ~like, ~oh, [00:24:00] you must go to this networking thing and talk to five people ~or, ~or something like that.

Cause that's just not, ~that's not ~everyone's cup of tea.

Yeah, no, I love that. ~Um, ~and it definitely resonates more ~and it's like, it's ~and I brought up networking because I feel like asking for like, how do I be kind? ~It's like, ~it's like the same weird way. Like, how do I network? But that's such a great answer. I feel like, ~ because it's like, no, you're not like, ~you can do that.

You can connect with people by being kind to them. And actually, ~I ~That is how I still keep in touch with people that I don't see or talk to, and it's because,~ like,~ on Instagram, I'm responding to their stories of something, whatever I see that resonates with me, I'll, like, write them a message instead of,~ like, like, ~hearting it or something.

I'll just be like, that's so cool. And then,~ like,~ when I left,~ um,~ my previous architecture company, And then my project architect from the projects I was working on, he's like, you know, you did a great job and he will send me construction photos of ~like ~the building that was getting built that I worked on.

And that is like the sweetest thing. And ~like, ~he's done it more than once too. And I appreciate it so much. I think it's nice to acknowledge ~the, like, you know, ~the contribution I had and also it's really cool to see the building get [00:25:00] built. So I love your suggestion of just reaching out to people and sharing the impact that they had on you.

Yeah, love to hear that story in particular. And ~it's so~ that's such a sweet story. and I know that doesn't necessarily bring new people into your network, but I think within that space. you're able to be introduced to new people, you know, like connections through the people you already know. And sometimes that is easier than trying to walk into a room of strangers.

And so, ~no,~ that's such a sweet story. I love that story.

Yeah, and I hadn't even thought about that recently. So ~it's, that,~ that was great. And I guess you also have to share about what you're doing, right? So for people to be able to like, think of you or ~like, ~like, Oh, hey, ~like ~if I need you in the future. And one more thing I want to bring up is that ~like, ~in the past,~ like, um, you know, ~like for marathons, you can like,~ uh,~ raise money for your entry into a marathon for the New York City one.

that's where I'm from. Oh, and that's where you are too.

Yes. Yeah.

~Um, ~[00:26:00] But so because I think I've done it through fundraising once. And then so when other people are like asking for donations for their cause, I remember what it was like to ask people for money and raise money. So I am always very willing to donate to people's causes because I want to show them that support too, because it's not easy and everything is meaningful to them.

It's important to them. So I show support through that. And it's ~like, ~because, yeah, it's another way to show you care, ~I guess, ~like that connection, it can be built many different ways.

Yeah, I think it goes back to ~the, yeah, ~pit forward idea of, ~you know, ~we've all have difficult times in our lives and how would we want others to show up for us in that space? And how can we help others show up? ~So, um, ~it's always helpful to make those introductions and connections for people in your life.

And then, not be afraid to ask for them in the future. So yeah, I hope ~that's, I hope ~that continues to be a part of ~like ~the networking circle and ~you know, ~they're always going to be, ~you know, ~meetups and conferences and stuff. [00:27:00] Those will still be there. And I think, and so just ~kind of ~understanding which space works best for you and your personality.

The Importance of Representation and Accessibility in Design
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Have there been other points in your career,~ um,~ that were just like very memorable or impactful or like ~kind of ~changed you or helped you grow?

Yeah,~ um,~ so my role at Epic, I was, ~you know, ~producing a lot of the visuals for the new releases for Unreal Engine and Twinmotion, and then I would take those visuals ~and how I create,~ like how I created them and then teach other people how to use them. So I had gone to a Unreal Fest in Australia and spoke about an architecture project,~ um,~ and showed people how to use a sample project, how to utilize the lighting, different, all these different things about it.

And afterwards, I had two different young women come up and ask to take a photo with me, and it [00:28:00] was so wonderful to have that interaction,~ um,~ in a space where there were not a lot of women speaking about technical roles, and they both happen to be architects. And ~so. ~They said ~how, ~how great it is to see someone, female in that space, talking about something technical, and it has been such a reminder for me as I dive into kind of this new independent role of no matter how difficult it can feel and be at times,~ um,~ that it's really important to younger generations to see women in these spaces.

And I think that goes for architecture as well as like having partners or senior leadership or founders or, ~you know, ~XYZ of having some representation in that space. And that goes for, ~you know, ~all DEI [00:29:00] efforts of having that representation does actually matter in my mind. And so having~ those little, having ~that moment was.

~ Big, ~just a really big moment for me and hopefully for them and that we could chat and talk about it and learn from each other in that,~ um,~ from that little photo and interaction. It just,~ um, it just~ meant so much to me.

Yeah, I'm sure that's a wonderful moment to have. Yeah. ~Are there, ~that come up in different ways? ~Like, I mean, ~as a woman, feel all the different ways where like, clearly someone who was designing this may not ~have been like similar,~ had a similar experience to me. And I feel like ~that's, you know, ~it doesn't always come up and sometimes it's very obvious.

Like, what has your experience been like with that?

Yeah, ~I mean, ~I think we all probably like experience that from time to time, whether It's just that we all have completely different backgrounds, *we all came from different spaces, sometimes it feels very comfortable to be in a space and sometimes it's not, and so learning from each *[00:30:00] *other, *~*and I, *~*and I think that's why I'm very interested about this, *~*about *~*technology, helping provide authorship to people who typically wouldn't be able to communicate or understand architecture.*

*So,*~* I, *~*I know this is very idealistic viewpoint, but I do think that *~*You know, *~*people who may not be able to afford an education doesn't mean that they don't have the right to have a say in this space that they're going to inhabit. And I think there's this kind of trope of within architecture of,* ~I am architecture.~

*I am architect, I know best, *~*you know, *~*like *~*I, *~*I know how you want to live, to inhabit this space.* And while we're taught to be mindful and thoughtful about different elements in the world that might make that a ~better, ~better living space, I still think it's important for the person or people who are occupying the space to be able to have a say and communicate the things that they're [00:31:00] thinking about and being able to,~ um,~ communicate that, whether it's, ~you know, ~visually ~or, um,~ or even just talking about it.

And so, my hope is that as, ~you know, ~AI and rendering and some of these aspects become easier that it gives people who,~ you know, ~don't have education to be able to, or have the money ~to, ~to have, ~you know, ~a certain level of education to~ be able to, you know, ~be able to be creative and say exactly or demonstrate what they're thinking and have a collaborative,~ I guess, ~journey through whether design or community or ~um, ~anything.

I know this is like a very open ended question,~ um,~ but I think ~it's, I think~ it's something that's Really important. And for instance, like with the, some of the tools ~that I'm u ~that I'm using are very user-friendly. And that's ~the, that's our,~ the whole point is to like, how do we make this stuff very user-friendly so that, you know, I have.

My, for instance, like my dad is able to [00:32:00] get in, create something in SketchUp and then visualize something in these tools. Someone who like doesn't have a, ~you know, ~background ~and ~in that space, being able to visualize some of that stuff. And,~ um,~ I think that's super cool and I hope to see more of that. ~So.~

that people have, ~you know, ~different ways of being able to speak their mind,~ um,~ in the future.

Yeah, of course. ~Um, ~are there any resources or places that you found,~ like,~ information or learned things or just groups of cool people? I'm always curious about where people get their information from,~ like,~ more ~so, like, um, like, ~specific to a trade or some sort. And, yeah,~ like, I, yeah,~ because I think sometimes there's pretty cool ones out there.

Yeah, ~I, for the, ~for the stuff that I'm, ~am~ into, really, it's YouTube. ~Like, ~YouTube is the platform where a lot of people are creating content and putting that out there, so a lot of educational spaces. I know that, ~you know, ~adjacent to architecture, there's several [00:33:00] different fields and pathways, and ~you know, ~some of them might be bootcamps, some of them, ~you know, ~might be certificates and stuff for like different long term trainings or going back to school, for the space that I'm in with, you know, real time rendering, there's honestly not really like any kind of education That's needed.

It's not ~like, ~oh, it's not like architecture where it's ~like, ~oh, you have to have. ~You know, a five year pro, you know, ~five year or four plus two, you know, all these different programs that you have to do to be able to practice, at least within EPIC, it really was like people had a lot of different backgrounds, especially coming from the education side, and especially like with, ~you know, ~software engineering, someone could just.

Learn that without going to school and be very well experienced in it and ~have a, ~have a great job. I think that for the real time technology that I was learning and exploring, a lot of it just came from documentation provided by the, ~you know, by the~ product or the software sellers themselves, as well as some of the YouTube videos.

So that's ~kind of ~what I [00:34:00] ended up doing. And Epic was creating a lot of those YouTube videos to help architects in the future. ~Um, ~and that's just the platform for that space. ~Like ~Like ~if you, ~ there's just so many videos and,~ um,~ there's so many different ways of creating. environments and 3D worlds, that there's no like one right way.

And so I think that's something that's really wonderful about YouTube is that there are a lot of different people out there producing stuff and there's not one like right or wrong way. So it doesn't have to be fully like vetted or curated. You're going to learn from someone doing, approaching a lighting problem.

~Um, ~even if it's not, There's not like a totally black or white. It's just ~like ~all on the spectrum. And so I would say that YouTube can be~ a good friend of~ a good friend of yours if you're looking to explore different traits and skills, especially within the real time rendering or gaming space.

That's cool. so is it more so that you have [00:35:00] to develop your style in a way, ~like ~as an artist, if you wanted to get into that? Or like for someone that maybe has like strong visualization work,~ um,~ and is in a traditional architecture space, maybe they're doing a lot of renderings, like how can they explore what's out there for them outside of a traditional architecture office?

Yeah. ~Well, ~I would say that to look at different industries as well. ~So, ~as I mentioned, ~there are,~ I see a lot of need between people, ~you know, ~such as in the film space or in the automotive space, looking for visualizers and looking for people who have, for instance, Unreal Engine or Unity knowledge. And.

Having a hard time finding them, and I think, ~you know, ~there's a lot of people coming through the gaming space who want to do gaming, and who may not be as interested in those roles, but I think that's a great place where architects or architectural visualization can start to [00:36:00] upskill And develop. be able to be a person that fits into those workflows, because* as architects, we are taught to be problem solvers.*

*We're taught to be able to communicate design. We are,*~* um,*~* taught to be creative with parameters. *~*So, like, *~*we have all these parameters. How are we going to be creative within this space? And, I think that's something that's really valuable for other industries. And so *~*I,*~* my hope is that, *~*you know, as, *~*as the technology *~*and.*~

*Improves and *~*there seems to be, *~*it seems to be like a lot of architecture firms are picking up a lot of the real time rendering that more architects will be skilled in this and be able to jump in the future if needed.* ~Um, ~*but yeah, essentially I get asked a lot of time or I get asked a lot about unreal engine talent and where to find the talent.*

*And so I think looking at other. *~*You know, *~*job platforms for different industries and seeing where the needs are and perhaps you don't fit *[00:37:00] *the, *~*you know, *~*bulleted list of all the different things, but being able to have any of the skills with real time rendering and be able to apply them to another industry, I think, is possible and a nice opportunity for people to explore.*

And then it sounds like what helped you transition roles also was more so like everything else you brought to the table in addition to your skills and background was, and like, I guess like really putting your best foot forward when you were in these places to meet people.

Yeah, I think so. ~Like, ~we all have different personalities, and we all have other parts of our lives that comes into play as we are moving throughout these spaces, and I think it's important to remember and really study what's important to us in those, like, as I have ~Kind of ~like transition through these different spaces.

Something that is [00:38:00] really important to me as well is being able to have some freedom with ~my, ~my schedule and my life. And so, I mean, I know I told the subway story and we talked a little bit about New York. And so I, ~you know, I~ moved to New York after school, since I was originally from Texas, after many years, I.

could not mentally and physically handle the,~ uh,~ the winters there. And so like my mental health needed a little bit of adjustment. And so while I was at shop, they had a LA office and I asked if I could go to LA for the winters. And I loved it so much that I've been doing it since. So it's been something that's really important to me to spend half of the year in LA and the other half in New York.

And that's something that's You know, I feel very lucky that I get to do. It's,~ um, you know, ~obviously it requires resources and it's not the most,~ um,~ financially smart thing to do, but it's something that is really important to me. I get the energy of [00:39:00] New York and. the architecture there, the people.

there,~ um,~ for half of the year.

And then the other half is in LA where there's just color and vibrancy and nature and just a more laid back experience. And so as I've transitioned through these different spaces, it's always been something that has been super important to me. So before I said yes to Epic, I made sure that I'd still be able ~to ~to do both of these things.

And then When it came time to decide life after Epic, I chose to go independent as a way to give me more freedom, and so ~that is something ~that is something that a part of me. It's something ~that's a part of my personality. Well, not personality, but, um, that's something ~that I really crave and want and need out of life.

So like finding a balance and finding, what is going to make you mentally happy and having that as a,~ um,~ something that you stick on to throughout this trajectory. Because I think that [00:40:00] If I,~ I ~mean, you can always go back into the past and say, if things would have been different, but,~ um,~ I'm not sure I could tell you, I don't know if many architects are able to do this, especially as it seems to be a lot of people are going back into the office.

And so I hope that each person can ~kind of ~find something that's ~like, ~super important to them and be able to fight for that,~ um,~ within ~any new, ~any new transitions.

Did you have a feeling like this doesn't make sense or ~like ~this is crazy but it was so true to what you wanted in your life and like what its impact on your life that you're like I'm gonna do it anyway like I feel like I 100 percent agree that like you should create the life that works with you and like it probably only makes sense to you but I think it's always funny that like when Everyone else lives like, you know, I'm going to commute to the office and work there nine to six, 40 plus hours a week.

And you're, like, it's very much the minority that gets to live their life the way they want to.

~Yeah, it's, um,~ yeah, I just, I feel ~very, ~very lucky, [00:41:00] and *I do think that it was very hard to picture this life, *~*you know, *~*of understanding, oh yeah, I can spend, *~*you know, *~*half a year somewhere and half a year somewhere else,*~* um,*~* I think, *~*you know, *~*in the traditional Or even *~*like, you know, *~*if your parents had traditional, *~*you know, *~*nine to six jobs and that's just like what you know, then it's *~*kind of *~*hard to fix your life that's different than that.*

~Um, I, ~I know you had mentioned some marathons earlier. I'm also,~ uh,~ I love marathons and I do love running them. And I think it's one of those things where you have to ~kind of ~be like, I'm going to run. 26 miles. I'm going to do it. This is what I'm setting myself up for. ~It may take, it does take months. ~It takes months.

It takes, ~you know, ~three to four months to prepare for that. Each week you have to be very disciplined and adding in more mileage and stuff to get to that final marathon. But at the end to cross the line and know that you had run the 26 miles is so wild. Like you said, like it feels [00:42:00] wild to think that you did it.

~Um, ~but you did do it. And so I think that sometimes when it can feel daunting of ~like, ~oh no, I've never ran more than two miles. ~Like ~that's just not possible. There's so many stories of people who have been able to do that. *And it takes. self determination, discipline. It's not going to be easy. *~*Um, *~*it takes patience.*

*It's not going to be an overnight thing. *~*Uh, *~*but I think that there is this level of joy that happens *~*when you, *~*when you do accomplish something like that. And so I feel like that's something that I feel. a little bit right now. It took me many years to get here, but I have a lot of freedom and it's still a roller coaster.*

I'm not going to.

say it's all rosy. It's, it is a roller coaster. ~Um, ~but when I look back at it, I would have never imagined, as I mentioned, I would have never imagined working at a gaming company or having my own studio. And. [00:43:00] Yet, ~there were,~ I feel very lucky with all the people that I've met in my life ~in the, ~in the space that I am.

~Um, ~and Yeah, I'm just so thankful ~for, ~for each of, all the different steps.

Yeah, that's a great example of people who run marathons, because that is crazy in its own way, like running that distance, and many people would never step foot near that, but people all over the world do it, and when you see that,~ like,~ old people, young people,~ like,~ people from ~like ~all different like shapes and sizes, I love it,~ like,~ anyone can run a marathon and people do it, so it's ~kind of ~just ~like, ~anyone can live the life they want and it'll look a little different for everyone, but it's clearly possible it might not make sense to other people.

~Um, ~you mentioned that like, now that ~you're, uh,~ you have your own business,~ like, what are,~ what is that ~like? ~Like ~how, yeah, like, um, was it,~ what are some of those,~ like,~ high moments and what are those,~ like,~ challenges that you are facing?

Finding Your Worth Beyond Job Titles
---

Yeah, I think one of the unexpected challenges I'm facing?

is understanding My worth, ~I guess. ~So when you're at a job, or even as an [00:44:00] architect,~ there's,~ there's some level of worth that's applied there. You say, Oh, I work, here. And, ~you know, ~people will be like, Oh, yeah, yeah. Or, oh, you're an architect or,~ um, or, yeah, ~even just to family members, we almost say, Oh, Yeah,~ I'm,~ I'm an architect.

What does that look like? And feel like there's some worth tied to it? Or can be some worth tied to it? I think you know, diving out into my own, there's Many years, I think I tied my worth to my jobs. And so now that I'm going independent and I'm not at a company, that I'm trying to understand what's my worth as I show up every day, what am I working towards, and ~um, kind of ~coming to terms with that and I guess decoupling worth.

with a company that you work for and I say that because I think if you would have talked to me three, four years ago, I would have been like, no, this is great.~ I love, you know,~ I love it. I'm putting my all into being the best worker that I can be. And so now that I'm like in my own space, it's. saying yes, doing that, [00:45:00] but for some, for something on my own.

but it still feels weird ~to, ~to question that worth, ~you know? ~And so that's something that I'm ~kind of ~coming to terms with, and that was an unexpected thing that,~ um,~ happened whenever I moved to create my own studio. ~Um, ~but it's also just very rewarding. ~The, ~the freedom and timing and It's just,~ it is well~ worth it in my mind, but there's definitely like a dueling aspect of it, of like, yes, I'm doing my own thing, but what is my worth if I'm not, ~you know, ~at a company or just like being able to,~ um,~ come to terms with that.

So yeah, there's definitely ~kind of, uh, ~two sides to that.

Yeah, thank you for sharing that because that ~is ~must be like a very real thing. I'm sure people deal with that in like many different stages of their career, like when they're first starting out and ~like ~trying to ~like ~relate to a title or a role or like reaching for titles and roles. But then I think it's also ~kind of ~weird on the other side when you're tied to a company, you have that ~like, ~okay, people know what I do.

But then like when you're having those bad days, And then, [00:46:00] like, you don't really want to be working for this company, which I'm sure, like, people feel like on those bad days, and then it's,~ like, kind of, like, ~the work you do is a little less meaningful because you're not as invested in it,~ like,~ it changes so much, so I imagine that even though,~ like,~ you might be unsure of exactly, like, how you feel about it that day, you're always very aligned with what you're about and what you're doing when you're working for yourself.

~Yeah, ~

Yeah,

Yeah. I think so. And it's a learning experience, like just like each to each. new space that I was in is a learning experience. And, I say all this, I'm working towards freedom. Next year I could take a~ job, you know, I could take a ~job ~and, uh,~ or a full time job in a totally different industry.

Who knows? I have no idea, but I hope that I can have my worth be tied to me, my personality, the things that I do outside of work, and,~ um,~ not be so tied to that aspect of my life. ~Um, I, ~I hope that it will be fruitful in the future doing that, but who knows? We'll see. [00:47:00] I'll see. Give me a couple years and then I'll see. yeah, that sounds good. Maybe I'll like send you a LinkedIn message in a few years and then

love it. Out of the blue. Hey, we

yeah,

years ago.

Where are you at now? What's going on? ~But then actually I totally Like, or ~from my side of,~ like,~ the microphone,~ like,~ hearing you, and also all of our guests, because,~ like,~ the guests we ~have ~have such unique,~ um,~ career paths, that whatever their role is, whatever they're working ~at, ~at whatever company, because of their journey is so unique and different, I never really know,~ like,~ what they're doing or like how, like, it's like very hard for me to relate and because it's so windy, like they've done so many things, the experiences and the stories that they share are like really like a unique person rather than ~like ~a job.

So hearing your story, I will definitely agree that like your worth is not tied to a job. It's about ~like ~all those moments that you've shared and like all those ways that you've touched people. and connect it with people.

Yeah, I hope so. And I think it, ~you know, ~as *we all take a look at that and, *~*you know, *~*even take a look at how *[00:48:00] *we got to be here, *~*you know, *~*how our personalities have developed, the environments that we've been in, the, *~*you know, *~*families that we come from, *~*like I, *~*like *~*one half of my,*~* one side of my family is like very into the educational space.*

~*Um, *~*and then the other side, I'm the first one, me and my brother, the first ones to go to college on that side. And *~*it's just like, yeah,*~* There's so much difference even *~*in *~*in that space in these like small different life elements that I hope that we can stay, have a lot of gratitude for all of the resources and stuff that put us to where we are today to have the jobs that we do to, you know, to be designers, architects, outside of architects, but also look back into families, our I'll see you soon.*

*environments that we grew up in, they could be very good, they could be very bad,*~* um,*~* but really, like, start to understand that and really start to understand, *~*you know, *~*what we want out of life so that it's not just that one job, that shiny job,*~* um,*~* that we're looking for, but more about what's going to make you happy,*~* um,*~* in life. *

That sounds [00:49:00] great. ~Um, so, ~to close, like our closing question, do you have any advice you would give to your former self or, I haven't asked this before, but maybe ~like ~anything you want to ~like ~keep remembering for your future self?

Ooh, ~this is, ~this is a good question. ~Um, I,~ to my former self, I would tell them to have a little more confidence. It can be As I mentioned, it can be very scary getting into these different spaces and can be daunting and can be overwhelming to ~kind of ~dive into a space or an industry or a technology or software that they don't know or that I didn't know.

And I always figured it out. I always learned how to. Go to YouTube, read through, learn it, go to documentation, read through, learn it,~ um,~ even like building out a business, going there, learning how to do it, and just having confidence in my, I guess, resourcefulness to be [00:50:00] able to make it through and to the other side so that in those times of, ~you know, ~having a lot of doubt and feeling like a little bit of imposter syndrome of having a little bit, not with confidence, like in myself, but having confidence in my skills so that ~like, ~I may not know exactly what I'm doing, but I am confident that I'll be able to figure it out.

So I wish I would have had a little bit more of that in the mean, in, as I was ~kind of ~going through each of my different,~ uh,~ little paths. ~Um, ~I think I would have been a little Maybe a few less tears of ~like, ~Oh, ~I don't get,~ I don't know how to do this. ~Like, ~I don't know what I'm doing. ~Uh, ~but ~I, ~I got there.

It may have taken some time, just like the marathon reference. Like,~ um, ~having a little bit more confidence in my skills at that moment.

Yeah, that's great. ~Um, ~thank you so much for this wonderful conversation. There are so many beautiful things you shared.

Thank you for having me and thank you for even taking, you know, your time to provide this resource to others. ~Like, ~I know that it's an additional thing [00:51:00] that you do. So I hope that you find it really rewarding. And,~ um,~ I feel so grateful. wonderful to be a part of this crew and I hope you know how much I appreciate being here and ~how, um, yeah,~ thank you for everything that you do for this community and for architects who are ~kind of ~interested in the non traditional path.

Oh, thank you for saying that. And actually ~it is very like, uh,~ I feel great after these conversations, like meeting people and like hearing their stories, it does energize me. So like, that's a surprising thing that I didn't expect to get from this podcast.

I love that. I love that. That's ~the, ~the unexpected bonuses of,~ um,~ trying something new.

Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much. Have a good one.

Yeah, thank you. You as well.

~Uh, I will hit.~

Closing Thoughts and Resources for Architects Exploring New Paths
---

Hey everyone. It's Erin from out of Architecture. If you find these stories inspiring and are looking for guidance, clarity, or just need someone to talk to about where you are in your career, please know that we offer 30 minute consultations to talk about what may be next for you. [00:52:00] If you're interested, head to out of architecture.com/scheduling to book some time with us.

Hey everyone. It's Jake from Out of Architecture. We love hearing your stories, but we know there's more out there that we've still yet to experience. If you or someone you know would be a good fit for the podcast and has a story about taking their architecture skills beyond the bounds of traditional practice, we'd love to hear it.

Send us an email at tangents@outofarchitecture.com.

Thanks for listening to our podcast, new episodes every two weeks. See you then