Jeffrey Yoo Warren

===

[00:00:00] and I think *a lot of people experienced this in design, in science, in technology, the idea *~*that, *~*that your work to be most meaningful should be most universal, that it should appeal to everybody, or that it should be understandable by everybody, or that it should resonate or,*~* um,*~* be equally, *~*um, *~*important* *to everyone *~*in, *~*in the same kind of way, it's a kind of a colorblind philosophy for design, *~*which, you know, a lot of, I, I, I feel probably you've had an experience like this, you know, where, you know, um, or, *~ *or in the converse, like the idea that *~if you are,~ *if your design is too personal, then people won't be able to relate to it* *and that in some way that will diminish your work or that it will pigeonhole you in some way to this little community of Korean Americans or something like this in my case. *~*Um, uh, yeah, I guess. *~* So part of the unraveling was also just the recognition that that's a very big world and that's a very important one.* *And that's the strength of my work is who I am and how I relate to it.*

welcome to Tangents by Out of Architecture. Out of Architecture is a career resource network helping designers [00:01:00] apply their incredible talents in untraditional ways. We're highlighting some of our favorite stories from the amazing people we've met along the way. We will hear how they created a unique career path for themselves from the wide variety of skills and talents they developed in and out of architecture. ~Okay. And can you say your name for me?~

~Yeah, my name is Jeffrey Yu Wong.~

Our guest today, Jeffrey, you Warren is a Korean American artist, educator, illustrator, community scientist, and researcher and Providence, Rhode Island, and also the 2023 innovator in residence at the library of Congress. I loved hearing Jeffrey share about finding community and connection through his craft and especially the thoughtfulness he puts in every step of the process. I hope you feel inspired from this episode to embrace all of your own unique parts of your identity and see them as strengths.

~Great. ~Welcome to Tangents. Excited to have you here. And the question we like to get started with is how would you describe yourself in three words?

~Uh, ~myself or my,~ my, ~personal or professional or both.

either, both.

[00:02:00] Those aren't my three words, by the way.

~Personal pressure. ~ you can of course answer however you'd like. ~Uh, ~I think I'd probably say personal, ~but you know, ~that's a little different for everyone. So whatever speaks to you.

~Um,~

~I guess, ~I guess it would be like,~ um, ~like artist, educator, crafter, maybe?

And what is your background in architecture?

I did an undergraduate in architecture. ~Um, I think that's, ~I think that's

~Uh, ~professionally speaking, ~I guess, ~or educationally, formally speaking?

and then what are you up to now?

~Um, I am,~

~uh, ~maybe it's a little hard to describe. Like, I guess I am doing a lot of different artistic work. ~Um, ~and that ranges from, ~um, I'm a, ~ have a, a residency at the Library of Congress and I do, ~um, project,~ this project called Seeing Lost Enclaves is, that's maybe my biggest project right now. ~Um. ~And in it, I, ~um, ~research early Asian American communities and neighborhoods,~ uh,~ many of them from ~the, ~the late 1800s, and I,~ uh,~ create artistic,~ uh,~ three dimensional or virtual reconstructions of those neighborhoods.

~Um, ~and I do that a lot in collaboration with other [00:03:00] Asian American artists. ~Uh, ~and I also teach those techniques and host workshops to support other people in making their own reconstructions. ~Um, ~and then on the other side of my artistic practice, Because ~I, I, ~I actually don't, I didn't think of myself as like a digital artist.

Actually, I ~kind of ~fell into that project. I actually,~ um,~ I'm more focused on woodworking, working with paper,~ um, ~and,~ uh, traditional,~ learning traditional,~ uh,~ Korean crafts and,~ um, and, uh, ~in some ways those two practices,~ uh, work together.~ have converged because my very hands on artistic practice is very informed by historical research.

As well,

Yeah, that's very cool. And all these different ways of making,~ um,~ how did you get into this in a way like your journey from school into like art and education

~I had a number,~ I had a few different careers since then. So ~I start~ after, ~uh, after~ undergrad, I did,~ uh,~ graphic design and web design and interaction design for a few years. ~Um, ~[00:04:00] and then,~ um, uh, ~I did ~a, ~a master's ~at the, uh,~ at MIT and the center for civic media. And I ended up in this. ~kind of ~co founding this community and nonprofit called Public Lab.

And for about 10 years, I worked there, ~uh, ~helping people and ~sort of ~involved in this community ~of, ~of creative people who, ~uh, ~developed inexpensive ways of monitoring the environment. So it was ~kind of ~environmental justice in the sense of,~ uh, Uh, ~collecting evidence about polluters causing harm in communities.

~Um, uh, but I'll,~ but doing that through,~ uh, kind of ~crafting DIY, ~uh, ~pollution measuring techniques. The biggest one that we did was,~ uh, um, uh, ~taking aerial photos using,~ um,~ cameras that were attached to balloons or kites. And we helped,~ uh,~ communities all over the world take photos of oil spills and,~ uh,~ brownfield sites and,~ uh,~ refineries ~and, ~and all kinds of things like that.

~Um, ~and to basically collect aerial photographic evidence of those things. We started kind of before drones were quite as accessible as they are today. So it was like, ~um, ~preceding drones, but also in a [00:05:00] lot of ways, like the kite and balloon based technique. It's so communal. It's so different from the sort of ethos of drones,~ uh,~ that in some ways it's the opposite.

~It's, ~it's not that you could achieve what we did using drones because they aren't fundamentally collaborative, communal,~ uh, you know, ~accessible, ~uh, kind of ~counter mapping technologies. So then in 2020, I quit the job and I did warn you it was a long story, ~uh, but I, uh, I started, um, ~I actually just wanted to take a break for six weeks,~ uh,~ but I quit,~ uh,~ in February, 2020.

~Um, ~and so that just turned into like me permanently,~ um,~ having,~ uh, having, uh,~ not sure what my career is,~ um,~ like a lot of people. And I,~ um, ~started practicing. ~I, ~ one of the things I really wanted to do was I had always done artistic work in my spare time and I thought of it ~kind of ~as a hobby almost. ~Uh, ~I always had these different projects I was doing and I began to take that much more seriously.

And that year was really formative for me and helped me to, ~um, ~figure out a lot of the things that I'm doing today. ~Uh, ~yeah, it was like a semi [00:06:00] forced,~ uh, uh, ~career adaptation. ~I mean, I, ~ I quit voluntarily and I was like, I'm going to do a new thing, but it didn't turn out the way I thought it turned out better.

That's ~kind of ~how a lot of people get started with like their,~ like,~ they take a passion project, a side hobby,~ um,~ on the side of their full time job. And that evolves ~into what they're, I mean, ~ that makes sense, right? Because ~you're, ~you're taking your time, effort, ~um, ~on that you could be spending doing ~like, you know, ~other life things.

And ~you're,~ so you're purposefully creating this. ~Um, ~can you share more about what that was like? ~Uh, ~you mentioned ~like, ~you thought it was a hobby, like that whole experience. Take,~ um,~ either the steps that you took or even the emotions that it is to like, take a hobby and make it into ~like, ~more of your identity.

Yeah, ~I, um, ~I guess ~I, as~ I've gotten older, I've learned to trust my instincts a little more, my gut feeling on things. And, ~um, ~rather than ~kind of ~to act from, ~you know, kind of ~a reasoned, rational place, which,~ um,~ sometimes ~doesn't, ~doesn't end up working out anyway. ~Um, ~and so I,~ I~ think one thing that Help me in this was just to feel that I was [00:07:00] drawn to doing certain things really strongly.

~Um, ~and I think that as a younger person, *I wasn't aware as much about how important it is to feel a sense of joy as you're doing work, *~*you know, like, *~*I was lucky that there were things that I did that brought me joy. But I also just thought,*~* well,*~* I should be doing something that's like the right thing that I, you know,*~* uh, and, *~*and *~*yeah,*~* so I think part of it *~*was, *~*was I had these strange,*~* uh, um, *~*intuitions, *~*uh, *~*in even a couple of years before I made that big transition, I was making things out of ceramics and I was drawing them and I was really not sure why, *~*like I made, um, a *~*I started making ceramics in the style of,*~* um, uh, *~*Joseon era Korean,*~* um,*~* pottery *~*and, uh,*~* but I didn't have a reasoning.*

*I didn't have a framework for why I was doing that. I just felt really drawn to do it. And I made this object and I remember it just sat on my shelf and I was just *~*kind of *~*puzzling over it for several years before I *~*sort of *~*pieced together what led me in that direction. So I think *~*that *~*that. was for me, part of a process of *[00:08:00] *trusting that gut feeling, trusting that there is a reason for it.*

*And now it's a very meaningful part of my practice. And *~*it's,*~* it wasn't just *~*like, um, *~*some Flight of Fancy. It was actually something very important to who I am. *~*Um, *~*even though it took a while to decode that.*

~Um, how, can you, ~can you share more? How does that, like, how is that part of your practice now? I'm just so curious,~ like,~ I can imagine it ~kind of, ~but ~I, I, ~I'm curious about the details.

Yeah, it was this weird little object. ~Um, it, ~it's ~kind of ~complicated. ~It, it was a,~ it's a spectrometer, which is something that I was building DIY spectrometers as part of my environmental work at public lab. It's like kind of a, chemical analysis tool. ~Uh, ~but it was a ceramic, it was a porcelain one made in the way that it might've been made, I don't know, in 1500 in Korea.

~Uh, ~and I was ~kind of ~trying to imagine if a spectrometer existed, who knows, in that time period, ~what would it,~ how would it have been part of people's lives? ~Um, ~And some of this I've pieced together in retrospect, ~what, you know, ~what these questions, like, it's like I had the answer, but not the questions ~kind of, you know, um, ~but more broadly, I [00:09:00] think it was one of the first times that I did a lot of, ~you know, ~research into a particular craft practice that's part of my heritage, my cultural heritage.

And I took those steps. I ~kind of ~made a replica of something, ~something~ speculative, but also something where I learned the vocabulary of that,~ um, ~craft practice of that tradition. And I began to make meanings with it today and to think about,~ um,~ my relationship, my personal relationship with that,~ uh,~ craft.

At that moment in time, the people around that object, ~you know, ~who held it. ~I mean, ~it was a speculative object. We don't know that they had any spectrometers in the 15 hundreds in Korea, but it was ~kind of ~like a lot of other ceramic objects from that time period. And ~yeah,~ I think in a very specific way it.

It was part of a transition where during those years at Public Lab, I, and* I think a lot of people experienced this in design, in science, in technology, the idea *~*that, *~*that your work to be most meaningful should be most universal, that it should appeal to everybody, or that it *[00:10:00] *should be understandable by everybody, or that it should resonate or,*~* um,*~* be equally, *~*um, *~*important.*

*To everyone *~*in, *~*in the same kind of way, it's a kind of a colorblind philosophy for design, which, you know, a lot of, *~*I, *~*I, I feel probably you've had an experience like this, you know, where,*~* you know, um, or, *~*or in the converse, like the idea that if you are, if your design is too personal, then people won't be able to relate to it.*

*And that in some way that will diminish your work or that it will pigeonhole you in some way to this little community of Korean Americans or something like this in my case. *~*Um, uh, yeah, I guess. *~* So part of the unraveling was also just the recognition that that's a very big world and that's a very important one.*

*And that's the strength. of my work is who I am and how I relate to it. *~Um, ~so ~yeah,~ I think ~that was, ~that was pretty interesting. Cause ~like ~who else would be interested in, ~uh, ~a Joseon era porcelain spectrometer, ~you know, ~like~ it's, uh,~ it doesn't seem like it was not necessarily in the ethos of what I was, the other things I was making [00:11:00] at that time period.

Now I make all kinds of replicas of all kinds of old things. So that's, it's very much part of my practice now.

are you saying that it's okay that it's very specific and I think because of its specificity that it's so many people can find their own connection and relationship to ~even, like,~ even though you're saying something and it may not have a direct relationship to something I'm familiar with, I can draw my own connections through my own history and memories.

to something that really resonates with me, right? So you're saying like that,~ um,~ assumption of the colorblindness ~is, ~is not actually, ~um, ~completely true.

Yeah. I think there's a

universality sometimes is encoded, ~um, it encodes, uh,~ dominant culture, whiteness in the U. S. and that to be universal doesn't actually mean to be universal. It means to be,~ uh, uh, you know, ~assimilated or something like that, ~you know, uh, ~But also it encodes all kinds of other things. ~Like, um, ~there's really good work by Ramon Tera ~and, ~and another nu number of other designers who have [00:12:00] unpacked the kind of universalist,~ um, uh, uh, ~Eurocentric,~ um, kind of ~claims of modernist design,~ uh,~ Swiss typography, things like that.

And they've looked at how,~ um,~ actually, ~you know, ~these sort of. grid systems and clean geometric forms pre existed in many other cultures. So in some sense, modernity was directly informed by and appropriated other,~ uh,~ cultural movements,~ uh, which is, ~which is ~kind of like, um, ~galaxy braining even that idea, because it's like,~ uh, you know, ~not just saying you don't have to be, ~you know, uh, ~what is it, 12 column grid, what, but actually, no, it's like hundreds of years before then it was invented, ~you know, ~in these other societies ~and, ~and,~ um,~ there's a sense of belonging that can be found in that as well.

But,~ um, but yeah, I,~ I think the other part of it is, it's not. I do think that different, many different people ~and, ~and I work with a lot of different, ~I mean, ~obviously Asian American is a very broad umbrella term and there's many, it's not monolithic at all. So I work with a lot of different folks and I do support people in finding a sense of belonging through practice, even if they're not Korean American, but also I [00:13:00] think I just found that ~like, I ~working with other Korean American people especially is very beautiful to me and it's very meaningful and I don't know why there was the sense ~that ~that was narrow at all, ~you know, ~in the first place.

~Mm.~

~Mm~

Yeah,~ I, I kind of, I really, like,~ what I'm, thinking about is ~how, like,~ when I have a very strong connection with someone that I just met, and it's usually because we share some ~kind of, like, ~similarities in upbringing or something, but I'm also finding that I have that connection. So that happens to be a lot of Asian American women and like we like will instantly click, but then also I think it's just non American because ~like I have, I'll,~ I have co workers and ~like, ~I would consider them white, but actually they're not ~from, like, they're not ~born here.

They came here, like, after college, so they are also having,~ like,~ a similar,~ like,~ immigrant experience or,~ like, you know, like, um, like, uh, ~language,~ like,~ they're speaking English, but there's,~ like,~ a little bit of accent, and I'm like, this is weird for me to,~ like,~ feel more American than a white person or, like,~ like,~ who I see as a white person, ~so.~

I really,~ like,~ appreciate all these different ways of,~ like, ~[00:14:00] connecting and being and,~ like,~ just,~ like,~ the past and, ~like,~ how that manifests itself,~ like,~ with each other.

Yeah, I think one thing that's really surprised me, or ~like, um, yeah,~ been generative for me is how many times I meet folks, and especially Asian American folks, who are obsessed with some, something, from,~ um, you know, ~from the past, from their cultural heritage, from their history, their ancestors. ~Um, ~but something like really,~ um,~ fleeting or like hard to,~ uh, um, ~put in words.

Like some people are really, ~uh, ~obsessed with the fibers ~in, ~in Hanji paper, ~you know, ~and,~ uh, um, ~some are really obsessed with,~ uh, the, ~the sounds of Hanji. ~you know, ~or the flavors of something, ~you know, and, ~and it's like this kind of fixation on the sensory experiences of our ancestors. ~Um, ~I don't know,~ like,~ I guess it feels to me like a niche interest, but actually so many people are really interested in that.

And I think maybe it's part of a broader desire for reconnection, for,~ uh, kind of ~reconstituting some of the worlds of our ancestors and understanding how we are [00:15:00] in some kind of continuity with them.

And can you share more about,~ um,~ what you're currently working ~with, ~with the Library of Congress? And you said that you, recreate many types of artifacts. And also,~ like,~ I'm looking at, I'm hearing and thinking about all of this through a lens that this is all very much like an architectural practice in a way, like the research, the investigation, and understanding people and their movements and their communities,~ like,~ that.

maybe to an outsider, it doesn't sound like it's an architectural work, like so untraditional in that sense, but to me it's very much relevant and architectural.

~yeah, ~yeah, I'm happy to circle back to that in particular. ~I mean, uh, the, ~the experience of, ~you know, ~architectural education, for example, I think it's really,~ uh,~ has been really important to me. ~Um, ~but ~yeah, I, you know, kind of, ~you know, kind of, as I said, my work at the Library of Congress ~has, um,~ was originally a new school.

technical direction for me. ~Um, ~I wasn't using 3D modeling software in any of my work prior to that. ~Well, I mean, very, ~very small ways. I'd break out SketchUp here and there or something, ~you know, but, ~but mostly analog. But then,~ um, I, I began, so I, ~I [00:16:00] started this project when I learned that ~in, ~in, I live in Providence, Rhode Island, I learned that the block I live on was,~ uh,~ Chinatown about a ~hundred years,~ 120 years ago, 1904 to 1914, and you can't see that on the street today.

~Uh, ~and,~ uh,~ it was destroyed in 1914 and everyone was displaced. ~Uh, ~it was completely razed. ~Um, ~And ~kind of, ~again, I was really interested in~ what that,~ what it meant for me as an Asian American person today to be living in that place and what, or what is my relationship to, ~you know, ~that history, those histories that the people.

And as I learned more about the project, I found more and more photographs of Chinatown as it had been. I met descendants,~ um,~ which is really cool and built relationships with people in the community. ~Um, ~and I, at some point I began you know, opening up SketchUp and just trying to like, ~um, ~see more like what it felt like to be there.

~Like make some,~ just make a few buildings and ~like ~put some facades on them and just ~sort of ~like ~kind of ~look at it from different angles and stuff. And I [00:17:00] started,~ um,~ building it and realized that pretty quickly that the things that drew me to that as a way of knowing were not the ~you know, ~historical accuracy or something like that.

I want it to be perfect or something, but actually the way that you could go to get into a space and get a feeling for it, like an emotional resonance of the space. And so I worked with folks like Alicia Renee Ball, an artist I really admire,~ uh,~ who does a lot of 3D work and,~ um, uh, ~learned a lot about atmospheric effects and a little outside of the usual, ~you know, ~like at least when I was in,~ um,~ undergrad,~ uh, ~we would, we weren't going for photorealism and we didn't spend a lot of time learning to make like fog.

~Uh, uh, but, ~but now I know how to make fog and ~it's, ~it's pretty fun. ~Um, ~and learning about like different lighting models and things like that. So a lot of technical stuff I learned from Alicia and, ~uh, ~but also just how,~ um, ~I began to get into memory and how memory of spaces and,~ you know, um, Yeah, like, you know, sort of ~the poetics of space and stuff like that.

And, ~uh, ~the recreation I made of [00:18:00] Providence is actually at nighttime. It's raining. There's like wet streets. There's sort of reflections and I started getting into soundscapes. I worked with another artist, Ann Chen, to develop,~ uh,~ historical soundscapes. And I began inviting people on visits to this virtual space and incorporating some storytelling and narrative work.

And then,~ um, ~Somewhere in the middle of that, I got this residency at the Library of Congress, and with it ~sort of ~a mandate to try to do this in other cities. And I began working with a number of other people in Portland, Oregon,~ um,~ Riverside, California, Hanford, California, and just a number of other places~ to do, to,~ to do this.

collaborate on reconstructions there as well. Each one came out ~kind of ~different like Portland is actually not Portland Chinatown but it's what's called Portland China's Vegetable Gardens with Drii to Tattersfield and it's an agricultural area within ~the ~the, within the city of Portland around 19, well, 1880 to 1910 or so.

And there were just these lush farms and [00:19:00] farmhouses and this small Chinese American community who were growing a lot of the vegetables that,~ um,~ people in the city ate. And,~ um, ~there was, you And not to over romanticize it because it was very tough living and it was not a welcoming place for Asian Americans at that time, but it was a very beautiful, ~uh, ~farming village basically in,~ uh,~ in a kind of a gulch in the west part of Portland.

And so we've, worked really hard ~to, ~to recreate that the feeling of that place with all the sounds of the bugs and running water and,~ uh,~ the wind and in the plants and trying to model 40, 000,~ um, you know, uh, like, uh, you know, ~bean sprouts or something, or bean plants growing,~ uh, you know, in a, ~in a field ~and, ~and how the wind,~ uh, brushes,~ brushes across it.

So stuff like that. So anyway, that's been this huge project. And just to circle back to what I said about it, reconnecting with my other work, all of these are informed by archival photos, maps, records, ~and, uh,~ and sometimes accounts from descendants, but not as commonly because those sorts of records have not been, ~uh, ~valued as much by archives [00:20:00] historically.

~Um, ~but in the other part of my practice where I'm making things,~ uh,~ physical objects and doing a lot of woodworking,~ uh,~ I've also started to. use archival photos and records to create replicas of,~ uh,~ tools and objects,~ uh,~ from,~ uh,~ Korean history. ~Uh, ~one of them in particular was,~ uh,~ is, ~uh, ~very exciting to me was this,~ uh, it's kind of a~ shovel that has ropes attached to it.

And the idea is that a group of people can all shovel together,~ um,~ in synchrony using just one shovel. ~Uh, so, you know, ~One person holds the shovel and then pairs of people hold the ropes and they all pull,~ uh, you know, ~presumably, I've never heard a recording of it, but presumably, shouting something or, ~you know, ~singing or something ~to, ~to coordinate the timing.

And so I started making replicas of that shovel and,~ uh,~ shoveling with other Asian American people. ~Um, ~and just ~the, ~the kinds of knowledge and experiences and sensations that you get from participating physically and tactically in the practice of shoveling with an object that is literally [00:21:00] out of ~a, ~a hundred or 200 year old, ~you know, um, uh, ~record.

~Uh, ~is that it's been very powerful. ~Yeah,~ and it's just highlighted to me that the architectural reconstruction and the walls and the points and the planes and stuff, it's important and it's ~kind of ~set dressing, but some of the most important experiences are tactile and sensory and emotional. And,~ um, they're not, uh,~ they're not like the AutoCAD side of the.

~of the~ modeling process. That's a different part of it. ~So,~

Yeah, all of that is so cool and I'm like trying to ~like ~imagine all of it while you're saying it. ~Um, ~do you want to circle back to like how that connects, you said, to like architectural education?

yeah, ~I mean, ~I don't know. It's interesting to me that,~ um, ~I loved,~ um, ~I loved my doing my architecture degree. I love the process. ~I mean, ~I mean, there were parts ~of the, ~that I, ~you know, ~weren't like, I remember, ~you know, ~My senior year project, I was like totally unsupported and I kind of meandered off in some weird direction because nobody knew what I was talking about.

But on the whole, just the emphasis on visual communication,~ the, the, ~the,~ um,~

working out an idea by ~like ~making it in, out of chipboard. [00:22:00] over and over at different sizes. I think I was just recently reading this article about how ~like ~some people like can't picture an apple or ~like, you know, ~it's like whether you do this making its rounds ~on, ~on social media, like some people like.

~Um, ~actually very visual people, very, people are very visual, ~you know, ~artists and designers. Some ~aren't, uh, they~ don't picture a thing in their head. They actually,~ um, they ~have to use paper to visualize, which actually makes a lot of sense to me because,~ um,~ there are lots of things that you can't, you know, Complete in ~your mind, ~your mind's eye.

You have to have a piece of paper or you have to do something in order to unpack that idea. ~Um, but, ~but I'm actually the opposite. Like, I often think in just pictures and just shapes and then I have to work to ~like, ~translate that into words. So that was also very generative for me to be in a space where that was totally encouraged.

~Um, ~and I'm just happy,~ like,~ just, Like I have notebooks which have like essentially no words in them at all. They're just like a series of images and weird doodles and stuff. ~Uh, ~and I'm very happy kind of thinking in that space ~and, ~and unpacking ideas and things. So I [00:23:00] think that was really generative for me in some ways though, like architecture as a profession doesn't really strike me as an incredibly like liberatory or like progressive tradition.

And it ~kind of ~makes me wonder like, why is architecture? education. ~So, uh, ~joyful, actually, you know,~ I mean, ~there's like long hours, I think that are ~kind of ~problematic, but ~I mean, ~the actual practice of it is something that I really enjoyed. ~Um, ~I didn't have a particular desire to go into practice in the industry and design actual buildings, but I really did ~like, um, yeah,~ like cardboard reasoning, you know what I mean?

~Um, ~and I still, ~you know, like, look, I still~ got, ~You know, ~my like perfect sized Elmer's glue bottle, you know,~ and I, it's, it's, yeah, it's, um, ~It's part of the way I think and process the world every day. ~Um, ~and I think that when you look at the different projects I'm doing, like, why did I, like, why was my way of understanding or building knowledge to like make models of something or to draw it, or to like, think about the visual and spatial experience, ~um, ~sometimes in some sense to the neglect of the human side of things, ~you know, ~and I think ~that ~that's been [00:24:00] important to me to, ~um, ~understand the limits of.

of visual understanding as well. ~Um, ~but I think at the end of the day, like I, although I think a lot, ~you know, ~visually and spatially, and I, a lot of my work is about making things and spaces. I also have. ~Um, ~like a habitual desire to be in relationships with people. And, ~um, ~and so that's why a lot of my work is ~not, ~not solo work.

~It's, ~it's like I was mentioning all of the different parts of my Library of Congress project have been in collaboration with different artists who I admire or know. And, and that's been really, I've been really grateful for that.

Yeah, so many thoughts are like running through my head. I love all of that. ~Um, ~I'm currently teaching second year studio and like the way that you were describing the shovel being like a very community act where there's like noise and ~like, ~like rhythms, maybe there's a song and then there's an act of shoveling itself and then the tool involved with it, like understanding all of that exists in a system together.

And then in addition to the community that it exists in, [00:25:00] yeah. And then being able to like make a project out of that or recreate it now I think is such a beautiful like combination of all the skills that you have as a person and like in our industry just like using whatever we have at our disposal to communicate like a feeling and the history like that's a beautiful project in of itself but also very cool to make it exist.

Yeah.

There's something really cool. ~I mean, ~I was, I'm continuously, I'm, I continue to be amazed at the kind of knowledge that we are, like, literally unearthing, ~you know, like, ~by using that shovel,~ like, ~just for example, ~you know, ~how, like, when a bunch of people are, like, digging together with different shovels.

It's just that ~like, ~it's kind of just like a messy, ~you know, ~it's fine, whatever, but like when everyone's pulling onto the ropes, you can ~like ~feel the rocks ~through the, ~through the,~ um, like ~the feeling of what you are digging into is transmitted along the ropes to everyone who's holding it. just, that's weird.

[00:26:00] That's ~like, ~so interesting. ~Like, ~it's like some kind of strange essay being written,~ um,~ enacted in this object and then hidden away in the, in these archival photos, ~um, ~for us to discover today. And then there's, I don't know what exactly is that knowledge that, that we are receiving, ~you know, from, ~from this, but,~ uh,~ but I think, ~yeah, it's, it's sort of, ~it's the question I want to be asking.

Yeah, you mentioned that earlier. You had the answer, but you didn't have the questions. So you're ~kind of ~doing like this reverse research investigation where you like know there's something in there, right? But you're trying to figure out the connections to what that is and what you want to create.

Yeah, that also reminds me of. A feeling when I was studying architecture and also ~from, ~from some of my art education,~ um, like, ~do you know, sometimes there's this feeling like that you're being asked to come up with an imaginary problem that your project is centered around and that it could just be anything.

And as long as you ~kind of ~dig into it in a kind of appropriately curious way [00:27:00] that like, that it works ~for, ~for the purposes of this assignment or something like that. it's a weird feeling and ~I'm, ~I'm sure education has changed, ~you know, ~since I was an undergrad,~ but,~ but still ~there's, ~there's this sort of idea of almost ~like ~a, like an artistic or design pet project, ~you know?~

And, ~you know, ~what's interesting about that is that it's so at odds with the idea of finding. an interest in one's own cultural heritage and what that means. ~It's, it's like, um, ~it almost trivializes the idea that one might really want to be living a lifetime of unpacking and reconnecting with who you are, ~you know, ~and,~ uh, like, ~Kind of your, I don't know, inheritances in a sense,~ um,~ which is not something that I felt particularly encouraged to do.

~You know, like, ~I remember I actually did do projects, that I now look back on really fondly, like, with Bamboo. ~Like, ~ for some reason, got,~ like,~ interested in,~ um,~ maybe my junior year or something and,~ like,~ making a project out of bamboo. So I like found a grove of [00:28:00] bamboo and ~like ~cut a bunch of it and ~like ~machined it and harvested the bits and learned ~how to, you know, ~how to work with it.

~And, ~and now I'm really interested in bamboo for other reasons. Like I'm making kites out of it. I'm learning these sort of traditional methods of working with bamboo. ~Um, but, ~but ~yeah, like I just didn't have, ~we weren't working in a framework where I was like, you know what, ~like ~there's something~ I have,~ I actually have a special relationship with bamboo.

And it's something to,~ like,~ value, ~um, ~for its specialness and its personalness, personal ness. Yeah. So I think that's an interesting quality. ~Um, ~and ~I, I mean, ~I think that's a generational change as well. I think,~ um,~ young people today are much more likely ~and, ~and also much more encouraged in, ~um, ~seeing themselves in their work in a very personal way.

but we still have a ways to go on that. ~So, ~ Yeah, definitely. But I do appreciate the direction it's headed where everyone's embraced for being who they are and celebrating that. That is definitely a good change. ~Um, ~all the work that you're doing now, what kind of characteristics do you think it relates to in yourself? Like your personality?

Because I know in the [00:29:00] beginning you said like artist, educator, ~crafts ~crafter. but ~like, ~what about like the personality side of you? Like, are you very ~like, uh, ~I don't know, like research based or is that like part of your personality?

That's a good question. Yeah, certainly I'm like, I can be obsessive. So like I, I see something and it catches my eye and I want to dig into it. And I,~ I, kind of ~I kind of won't stop picking at it until I've like tried to unravel it. I'm also very scattered or like I try to do too many things at once. ~Um, ~and so I often have ~like ~20 different.

weird lines of research that I have open in different tabs that I'm just trying to like, ~you know, ~I get distracted and I look at it and then I'm like, okay. And then I spend ~like ~a half an hour digging down some rabbit hole. So ~yeah,~ that has been actually just productive for me. So ~maybe, ~maybe in a past careers that was not a helpful quality, but in this work, it's great.

~So, um, um, ~but then, I don't know, ~I guess, um, ~personality wise. Like I said, I ~have a, um, I ~really like working. I [00:30:00] like teaching. I also like working in collaborations with people, especially small groups. ~Um, ~so ~like, ~not like huge team projects necessarily, but more like, ~I like, um, ~finding folks that I really resonate with, ~who I, uh, ~with whom I can.

I can sort of exchange energies in a way that,~ um, kind of ~bubbles up and, ~you know, ~sometimes when you work with someone, it really clicks and you're like, Oh, and you come up with ideas very quickly bouncing things off of each other. ~Um, so yeah, I've,~ I've tried to learn to recognize. ~Uh, ~that, that good kind of,~ uh,~ collaborative,~ um,~ energy,~ uh,~ or rapport, ~and, ~and also ~like, you know, ~I have this Library of Congress residency, and it comes with, ~you know, ~some,~ uh,~ good funding, so I also want to be in collaboration with people and sharing,~ uh, you know, ~because I know that having,~ uh,~ Even for just a few years been an artist as my primary profession.

It's tough to make a living as an artist so I want to be like, ~you know, ~spreading the wealth while I can and down the road maybe, ~you know, ~I'll be the person getting contracts with another artist or something like that. I think we all have to help each other out in that respect. Maybe the last thing I would say is The woodworking part of [00:31:00] it works with my personality well because I like to ~like ~put something on that I'm listening to music or podcast or something and be in the shop and ~like ~be doing the sequence of things that lead that all begin to converge.

~Um, ~and I ~really, ~really ~like. ~being in the shop,~ um,~ really profoundly. ~Like, ~I'm really glowing by the end of a day in the wood shop. And I love the smell, and I like the textures, and I like how, ~you know, ~It's so not linear. Like you make, say you want to make a table or something, you can ~kind of ~just follow your instincts and you're like, okay, I mean you need to plan it out, ~you know, ~but ~like, ~you're like, okay, I'm gonna cut this and I'm gonna do that.

I'm going to work a little bit on this. I'm gonna do a bit of that. All the pieces are ~kind of ~slowly converging. ~And, ~and then, yeah, you, And we reached the conclusion and it's this incredible integration of different processes ~that, ~that were really,~ um, ~yeah, really joyful. ~Um, ~so ~I really, ~I really like that,~ um, ~that practice.

I'm trying to spend more and more time woodworking.

Yeah, that's beautiful. I love how,~ like,~ there's a tone of like joy and [00:32:00] happiness and like really connecting to what brings you joy. I think you might have mentioned that earlier as well, like along. ~You know, ~the years ~have you, like, how did you, ~how did you see what was like resonating with you more, ~you know, ~bringing you that joy?

That's something that I more recently in the past few years have been like letting myself do is just ~like, ~I like this for these specific reasons. And ~like, ~I just like the symmetry or like the graphics and I will have it in my life, even just for the pure joy of, ~you know. Like, ~I like it and that's not something I think like when you're young, ~you know, ~your parents want you to be productive or like you feel like you need to be productive and it's not something you would get to embrace often.

I think that recognizing there's,~ um, uh, ~being able to recognize not like that you can be good at something but not love it is so powerful. ~Uh, like, um, ~and I think that ~in my, um, ~some of my previous careers, like started doing things. more and more because I could do them or I was good at them. ~Um, ~and actually ending up doing, ~uh, less, ~less things that I really,~ uh,~ [00:33:00] loved ~or, um, yeah.~

~So I, ~I think ~that's, ~that's been a learning curve for me. ~Um, ~and also that, like, when you feel good about a process, it's not just that you create really good, great work, ~you know, ~that comes out of that joy. ~I mean, ~I don't know, is that even universally true? ~Like, like, ~can you be really bad at something? Is it really enjoy it a lot?

And actually maybe that's fine, ~you know? Um, but, but yeah, and then, ~and then,~ um, ~the other, I guess the other part of it is,~ um, ~when you're working with other people, if you're really not enjoying what you're doing, then ~you're kind of not,~

maybe you're not fun to be around in the most benign sense, ~you know, like, um, ~I think that,~ um,~ when people are really experiencing joy, that they pay that forward towards the people around them. So I think that's really important, especially if, ~you know, ~artists tend to be, think of this, ~you know, ~to be thought of as ~like, um, kind of ~solo workers, but I don't think that's that true, really.

Yeah, you've brought that up a few times, like this power of community and that you enjoy working with other people. ~Um, ~when you were talking about having ~like ~a good work, ~like. You know, ~meshing with someone. I absolutely can relate to that. And I actually discovered that like after,~ um,~ I left architecture and I was just like [00:34:00] flowing and with people.

I think it's also the environment allowed us to work in a way that we could just bring ideas out and act upon them and then ~like, ~see where it goes. ~Um, ~not every,~ uh, uh, ~opportunity allows you to do that. ~So, ~but,~ um,~ That is great to find that. ~Um, ~can you speak more about the collaboration and like the fun things that you've got to discover with people when working together?

Yeah, ~I mean, ~I think, about a year ago, I joined this group called Korean American Artists Collective, and that was really powerful. I was already starting~ to, ~ over Instagram ~and, and, ~and through other,~ um, ~Venues like connect with other Asian American artists and such, but I think I had mentioned this kind of experience of finding people with weird interests.

And I think with the KAC, ~it really, that really, um, ~that really happened in a, ~in a ~powerful way for me. ~Like, ~ I remember just being on a call and ~like, ~we started,~ um,~ talking about ~like, ~ I don't know. It was like,~ um, ~ Someone was sharing like how to create like formation aid for creating,~ uh, you know, ~ for paper making, ji making, [00:35:00] ~ um, ~you know, out of like, ~out of like some ve~ other vegetable, ~if you don't, ~if you can't find the correct root that was used traditionally, you can substitute this other thing, you know?

And it's like, we were just talking for like 40 minutes about ~like, I don't know, just like~ how to grow your own paper mulberry. And ~I was just like, whoa. Like this is. Yeah, like, kind of ~kind of like finding your people.~ I don't know, like, partly it's, um, ~ I do think a lot of like, Diceburg folks,~ um,~ It can be complicated like what is your relationship with your community, you know,~ you know, ~do you feel like you belong or like whatever, you know, and like I think I generally ~kind of ~felt a sense of belonging but like in a sort of vague abstract way but yeah to find like Korean American artists in particular, ~who are like, kind of a little weird, you know, like, uh, and who, in the same way, and that to really feel like you're, and who are, ~ who have these like deep historical research interests that mirror my own,~ um, ~was, yeah, very powerful.

So many,~ uh,~ Korean American artists are doing work, especially in KAC maybe, but maybe that's just like representative ~of, ~of all Korean American artists in some sense, that is informed by, doing work that is informed by,~ um, ~historical research. ~Um, ~And ~sort of ~this reconnection practice. So that I think has been really, really powerful to just to be in a community of people who are approaching work ~in a, ~in a [00:36:00] resonant way.

but also, yeah, I think,~ like, you know, ~how it is,~ like,~ if you're working on your own too much, or even with the same people, or with people with who you don't resonate with that ~well, um, ~Your creativity ~kind of ~somehow dries up. Like you can just feel like, Oh, ~I,~ how many different ways can I solve this one really narrow problem?

~Like, you know what I mean? Like ~there's no new ideas coming out and ~like. ~It's because those come from interactions with other people and the energy does too. So that's also for me. I know different people have different, ~uh, kind of ~creative wavelengths, but ~that's, ~that's what it's generative for me for sure.

And I think that makes sense. ~Like, well, ~like you said, you can only do so much on your own and maybe that works really well for you, but you never know what else you can add to that with,~ um, ~meeting other people and just talking, not even like necessarily collaborating. ~Uh, how did,~ how do you find it works well for you to meet and meet people and find other,~ um,~ groups of people?

~Like, ~I, like you said, it could be lonely or easy to operate in a silo.

Yeah. ~I mean, ~I think,~ um, ~for different Asian American communities, I think that can be complicated if you don't live in ~like ~a big [00:37:00] city,~ uh,~ or big city with ~like ~a big Asian American population. ~Uh, Providence, um, um, I mean, ~Provinces is generally not a big city. There's just not that many artists, period.

Well, I mean, there are, there's lots of artists, but ~I mean, you know, ~it's not like New York City or something like that. And then also, ~you know, ~it's, ~um, like, ~is there, like, when you go to New York, it's, I think it's very interesting, or ~even, ~even Boston with the Power Arts Center, for example,~ um,~ there are spaces that are dedicated to Asian American artistic practice and,~ uh,~ for events and,~ um,~ for organizing, activism, and all kinds of things.

And,~ uh, um, you know, ~like the idea of,~ um,~ working intergenerationally is much easier when you're near,~ like,~ a large, ~you know, uh, ~locus of your own community, so to speak,~ uh,~ an enclave. And,~ uh,~ yeah, I think that's tough, especially because,~ um, like, ~Instagram, for all of its many flaws. It is a very powerful way to connect with,~ um,~ people in your community, defined community,~ um, ~remotely, ~you know, ~like I know Korean American artists or Korean diasporic artists all over the world at this point, which is amazing.

~Um, ~but it,~ the,~ the kind of interactions you get to have ~are, ~are ~kind of ~narrow and I'm not meeting, ~I'm not meeting ~Asian American [00:38:00] artists of, ~you know, ~very different generations, ~you know, uh, ~because they're not on, not on Instagram. ~Um, uh, yeah.~ So I think that's, it's complicated ~in that, ~in that way. ~Um, ~I think one thing also ~that, ~that,~ um,~ maybe getting at this, which I saw familiar to a lot of other Asian American artists who are looking at historical and traditional,~ uh,~ craft practices, it's actually ~like, ~going on YouTube and finding like some obscure ~YouTube channel, ~YouTube channel of someone doing something.

Like I have one that I follow, it's called ~Wood ~Wood and it's ~like ~some Korean woodworker, ~you know, ~who just films himself like making hanoks,~ um,~ and chopping down trees and milling and doing all the traditional,~ um,~ home building practices. ~Uh, kind of ~seems like a you know,~ like, um, ~or at least from his video, I'm sure you get.

has an active social life outside of his YouTube presence or something, ~but you know, ~ it's like, he's just there chainsawing, ~you know, and, um, ~ and I can just watch that forever. And I learn a lot about the practice. I learned some vocabulary. I'm a heritage language learner. So that's part of my practice as well.

And, my live practice to just be learning Korean and to be [00:39:00] learning technical woodworking Korean, I think is especially,~ um,~ cool. ~Uh, ~but also even when I can't follow, ~you know, ~what's being said, I can. understand it through the woodworking practice. So I can see, okay, there's like moments in the videos where I'm like, Oh no, you're not going to do that, are you?

Oh my God, he's doing it. ~Uh, you know, it's like, um, ~ it's funny that there can be reconnection through these different languages. ~Um, ~ and I think that's a form of finding community too.

Yeah, that's very cool. ~I, ~I'm going to ~like ~tie it back to architecture, but I think ~like, ~because especially in schooling, we're forced to look at things in so many different ways. Everything is a tool. Everything is a medium, like to explore something. Like, ~I kind of like, like ~who I am because I have all these things like,~ um,~ to solve problems with.

~I mean, ~I guess that's like ~my, ~my thing that I rely on a lot to solve problems, but it's like, I use everything at my disposal. And like, so when you were saying that you're ~kind of ~almost communicating through woodworking by watching this video,~ like,~ I love the power ~that ~that holds.

~Yeah.~ Yeah. ~I, I mean, ~I feel like if I ever were to meet this person, ~I mean, ~[00:40:00] hopefully my language level will be high enough to communicate well,~ but,~ but also ~like, ~could I express myself through woodworking? You know what I mean? Like, should I bring some like wood stuff that I made, ~you know, ~or something like that?

and I think that's ~kind of ~a funny idea. ~Um, ~but also a really ~kind of ~a sweet one, ~you know?~

And also ~like, ~there's a translation between like how you treat The skills or the technical things you need to do in woodworking, you can probably translate to other things as well, like ~the, ~the process and the craft of that, which is something I love also from architecture school that I've gathered.

Yeah. ~I mean, ~there are definitely,~ um, ~ encoded meanings and things like that in, in all of these practices. I think it's another reason I'm interested in them.

~So, um, ~as we wrap up the hour, ~what, ~do you have any words of advice that you would have liked to have given yourself in your younger years?

~Hmm.~

I don't know. I guess,

~ um,~ that, ~I mean, ~some of course about, ~you know, ~just ~like, ~Making time to understand,~ um,~ myself and, ~you know, ~who I am, where I'm from,~ my, my, uh, ~ my [00:41:00] heritage,~ uh,~ through my work, and that those two things can be connected. But like I said, I think younger people these days are doing better at that. ~Um, and~ which makes me really happy.

~Um, ~the other part would be like, all right, like I went to Korea a year ago and it was my first time going in 20 years. And that's just unbelievable. ~Um, like to, ~it's not like I was like, not that I didn't want to go or something. It's just ~like, ~I kept putting things off. It wasn't a priority, ~you know? ~And then like, how could I have let it go for so long?

You know what I mean? Like how, I was 20 years ago. ~I mean, ~it was like a different country. You know what I mean? ~Um, ~we were in a different country. It's ~like, it just, it's ~such a long period of time. ~And, ~and I think that, yeah, it reflects a prioritization that I wish I had. ~Um, I wish I had, I wish I had~ made a priority more, ~you know?~

~Um, ~but I also think that, ~you know, ~it's like I started,~ um,~ Really seriously studying Korean only what, two or three years ago? You know? And I don't think there's ever like a too late for that kind of thing, ~you know? ~So I think that's also good. I guess

maybe most important would be just the power of good relationships. ~You know? ~I think that. [00:42:00] When I was younger, I thought that ~the, ~the, like doing good work was the most important thing, ~you know, ~or something like that. I also, I guess I trusted like systems a little bit more like that. I thought ~like, you know, ~we can come up with ~like ~a revolutionary way of, ~you know, ~working together and that we could trust that, ~you know, um, ~and I actually think it's more about personal individual relationships and trust.

And ~yeah, and I, I think, uh, Um, that's, ~I think that's something I try to do more today is to be in really good relationship with the people I'm working with ~and, uh,~ and that it gets you a lot of the way there, ~you know?~

Yeah, definitely. I can relate. ~Like, ~instead of relying on working hard and ~like, ~getting all your work done and doing the best there, like,~ like,~ what matters more is ~like, ~your relationship with the people you work on. And that's definitely more impactful and memorable in the end.

~Mm hmm.~

~Yeah. Um, ~are there any things you're looking forward to in the future?

~Um,~

yeah, ~I mean, ~I think ~like, ~it's a very tough time in this world to be optimistic about things. I do think that personally, ~I think, you know, ~I want to be building and strengthening community because I know we're going to need it in the next few years more than [00:43:00] ever. So I think if I look forward to something, ~yeah, it's,~ it's that kind of mutual aid, that kind of ability to rely on one another, ~you know, ~and build a resilient community.

Place that ~we can, ~we can get by and, you know,

Yeah. And maybe a little more than get by, hopefully.

yeah.

Thank you for this lovely chat for this,~ this, um, ~ sharing everything. ~I, ~I really enjoyed it.

Yeah. Thank you.

~Um, are there any things, like I, we, we will include like, um, I think, do I have your website and things like that? Is there anything you want to make sure we share in the show notes?~

~Um, I use my Instagram quite a bit. Like I don't update my website nearly, uh, very often at all. Like every year or two.~

~Okay.~

~So a lot of my work, if people want to follow it, you could find it in my Instagram and my stories and things like that. So,~

~Okay. That's perfect. And, um, do you have a profile picture you want to use?~

~uh, sure. Yeah, I can send one over.~

~Okay. Yeah, you can just email that. That'd be great.~

Hey everyone. It's Erin from out of Architecture. If you find these stories inspiring and are looking for guidance, clarity, or just need someone to talk to about where you are in your career, please know that we offer 30 minute consultations to talk about what may be next for you. If you're interested, head to out of architecture.com/scheduling to book some time with us.

Hey everyone. It's Jake from Out of Architecture. We love hearing your stories, but we know there's more out there that we've still yet to experience. If you or someone you know would be a good fit for the podcast and has a story about taking their architecture [00:44:00] skills beyond the bounds of traditional practice, we'd love to hear it.

Send us an email at tangents@outofarchitecture.com.

Thanks for listening to our podcast, new episodes every two weeks. See you then