Ep 4: Finding Happy and Healthy Career Paths in Architecture with Anamika Goyal
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Intro
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Anamika: [00:00:00] I think there are companies and environments out there that are very much working on architecture and construction, where it's possible to have a healthy environment and a different approach to it. I think there are options out there, but yeah, they just take a little more looking.

Silvia: Welcome to Tangents by Out of Architecture. Out of Architecture is a career resource network helping designers apply their incredible talents in untraditional ways. We're highlighting some of our favorite stories from the amazing people we've met along the way. We will hear how they created a unique career path for themselves from the wide variety of skills and talents they developed in and out of architecture.

This is your host, Silvia Lee. And I'm excited to share that this season we're highlighting our out of architecture community members. At the end of each episode, you'll hear a little bit from a community member about where they are in their career journey. So make sure you listen to [00:01:00] the end.

Our guest today is Anamika Goyal, Director of Operations for Architecture and Construction at Riley Projects and our newest OOA advisor. She shares her experiences from working in more traditional architecture firms, all the way to innovative startups in the AEC industry. Hear Anamika's insights into leadership, management, and finding a career that fulfills a passion for building without leaving architecture.

Check out our episode show notes where you'll find some recommended resources from Anamika, and listen to the end to hear from louise fellows from the O O a community.

Welcome to Tangents, and let's get started. How would you describe yourself in three words?

3 words: Leader, Problem Solver, Connector
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Anamika: First one is definitely something along the lines of leader and leadership and mentor. I'm combining all those as one term, so maybe I'm cheating a little here. But yeah, I think I've been lucky in that in my past few jobs and my current job, I've had the opportunity to [00:02:00] both coach and mentor, both in and out of work. And that's something I've realized that maybe even more so than the work of working on buildings and the built environment is something I really enjoy. And I think a lot of that comes from, my mother has a lot of those qualities. I'm the oldest sibling and a pretty big family and have lots of younger siblings, younger cousins, et cetera.

So I think I, I didn't realize it until recently, but I think that's just. A big part of me. I think another one is probably a problem solver. I think I really enjoy, and I think this is part of what draws me to the profession, is I really enjoy just being given a challenging problem, a hairy problem, like ideally a pretty multifaceted one.

And I think the enjoyment of this also comes from. The freedom and resources to do what it takes to solve it. But I think if all those things are in place, I really enjoy just tackling a big question like that maybe doesn't have an answer and figuring it out for the first time. [00:03:00] And the third one is maybe like something along the lines of connector.

I think, again, this works really well with my role in my past few jobs. Just like a lot of work connecting people, helping others communicate. I think especially in architecture, there's a lot of work that architects need to do in terms of helping builders communicate with designers or companies communicate with cities, or everyone communicating with the client and being able to speak that.

Language and knowing which words and which language will resonate with each audience is really helpful. And then just helping different parties find their shared motivations and shared goals. So just getting everyone back on the same team where a lot of times it can feel like people are working against each other's interests.

Starting Architecture Later in Life
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Silvia: Awesome. You said a lot of really cool things there that I'm looking forward to diving into, but for some background information, what is your background in architecture and where are you now?

Anamika: Yeah, so my started in architecture pretty late in that [00:04:00] I had finished college and worked for a couple years before I realized I wanted to study architecture and become an architect.

Full disclaimer is I am not officially registered on paper yet as an architect. Very close, but I'm gonna use that term anyway. But just wanna make that disclaimer in the beginning.

Like I said, I did my undergrad in, I was pre-med in undergrad, so my majors were biology and chemistry. However, I was spending as many free seconds as I had in the art studio instead of the lab, and I think that told me something that I knew for a long time was that it was important for me to have creativity and just this kind of active making, something that didn't exist yet.

I. And I think also that kind of like aesthetic and design sensibility, I think combination of those I realized was really important to me. At the same time, fine art didn't really resonate. I think that science part of my brain is like still alive and well, and I needed something that was, I think a mix of the two.

So, All that is to say, it took me a while, but I finished [00:05:00] out my degrees in biology and chemistry and took my MCATs and started applying to med school. But then at some point during that, realized it, I was doing it for the wrong reasons. Took a couple years to just, I think it was for like two or three years.

I had this cycle of working for 10 months, saving up money. Quitting that job and then traveling abroad for the summer and then spending everything I had saved and then doing that again, which in your early twenties I think is a great time in life to do that. Definitely wouldn't be able to do that now, nor would I want to.

But yeah, it just, I think, taught me a lot about who I was and what I cared about and what I found exciting. So after that architecture school felt like a very exciting move. So I ended up going to Cornell for their. Three and a half year mark program. And then after that started working at a couple firms on the East Coast.

Silvia: And you have a pretty cool list of firms. Can you name some of those places that you've been?

Anamika: Yeah, sure. I think internship wise, probably the [00:06:00] company based in Sierra Leone that I worked for called. Architectural field office. Really talented guy named Killian Doherty, who specializes specifically in urban growth after a major conflict.

So a lot of like post-war countries that are very much infrastructure emerging and developing. So we spent a summer in Sierra Leone. I think like firms wise, I spent a summer at W X Y in New York after school, worked at Kieran Timberlake in Philadelphia. And after that was it WeWork for. Shy of three years, and then was at a startup called Cottage for Shy of three years and am now at a design build company based in LA called Riley Projects.

Silvia: Very cool. Can you say a little more about your current role and even like link in Cottage a little? Because these are very new types of places that deal with building projects.

Learning the Basics of a Well-Rounded Architect First
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Anamika: Yeah, and I, I would maybe include WeWork in that list. Kieran Timberlake. [00:07:00] I think for certain reasons wasn't a place I saw myself long term, but was an incredible place to learn the basics of just becoming a well-rounded architect.

Just like a lot of emphasis placed on quality design work, positive client relationships, like very professional clients, and that largely we were working for. Like big theater companies or entertainment corporations or a lot of universities. So there's just like a, there's a certain level of polish you need to bring as the service provider if your client is already so professional.

And I think that was just a really good example for me to have immediately after school. Lot of emphasis on documentation, detailing, Q A Q C, just these things that are the fundamentals and definitely helped me in future jobs. However, I was definitely feeling just going back to that kind of like connector and problem solving and leader, those three words I had used earlier.

It felt potentially being at a company that was earlier in its history and smaller, and I think also more [00:08:00] vertically integrated where there's an aspect of the design process, but then bleeding heavily into. The construction aspect as well, that felt like a better fit for me based on at the time WeWork was emerging and growing.

This was in. 2018 I think. And so yeah, based on that, took that job, which was fantastic. I think like even with everything that happened with WeWork, if given that same choice again, I would would go for it again. I just learned a ton, but I think that was what was exciting about WeWork is like an opportunity to be involved in heavily involved in the design process.

The bidding pre-construction process and then also in the construction process. But then on top of that, there was this whole layer of business operations and how do you do things that scale and how do you think about the health of how this project is going in the context of how the whole business is operating.

And I think like that combination is what carried me through to cottage. I think a lot of the same [00:09:00] focus at that company, although with a. Very different building type and what I'm, I've only been at Riley Projects now for about two months, but it's really similar. I think the big difference with Riley Projects is that it's not a VC funded company like Cottage and WeWork were, but there is that, and in my position there especially, there's a lot of that same consideration of design construction, but then also developing all of that to set the company up for scale.

Reflecting Objectively On Your Career
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Silvia: How did you determine when you were ready to take a next step to a different place? Was it like a feeling or related to the type of work or stage of your life even?

Anamika: I think there's always a bit of. Antsiness or cabin fever that I just have as a human, maybe at baseline. I think maybe a different way to put that is I get bored easily. When I felt myself getting bored, that was a signal that it's like, "Hey, your learning curve is flattening out at this place." And I think without being too hasty, I tried to do a [00:10:00] good job of pushing myself and just saying, is there more learning to be had if you were to. Try more or become more curious about other parts of the business or just step up on my own.

And so I think before leaving, I always tried to do that and just identify, it's okay if you don't feel like you're learning, what do you want to be learning? Give it an honest shot and try to learn those things here. And if the company just can't support that at the moment, that's fine. It's not, I don't think that's like a knock on the company or on myself.

It just means it might, it might be the right time for something different.

Silvia: I love how objective you state it. Like it's so logical, very not emotion based because for some reason I feel like it can easily become very emotional, like your job that the identity that, that it gives you, and also relating your feelings to how successful you are at the job.

Or not even like, Over like career success, but even just accomplishing like finishing projects, like tying so much of your emotions slash happiness to [00:11:00] what you produce at work is it can be very taxing over a long period of time.

Anamika: Absolutely. I'm not to say I am so objective in the moment and perfect at that.

There's this saying it's do what you love and it's not do what you love. You'll never work a day in your life. It's do what you love and you'll never have healthy boundaries between work and. Self-esteem or whatever the joke is, and it's tricky. I think a lot of folks who do go into architecture or any type of design career are doing it so much for the passion of it and how much they identify themselves as being creatives and being designers, and I.

It can be really hard to separate, but I think it's helpful if to develop a practice of just stepping back and just saying, what do I need at this time and what can this employer offer to me? And if those things don't match or it doesn't seem like they could come to match within six months or a year or kind of however long you're willing to give it, then.

I think just making it more objective and saying, let me see if there's an employer who has a little bit [00:12:00] more of what I'm offering at this time.

And employers are dynamic too, right? It's like a company that could offer you something today might not be able to offer you what you need in two years or vice versa.

You Are the Driver of your Life and Career
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Silvia: Yeah, and definitely from my experience in an architecture firm, I think they want the best for you. you think that your managers will provide it, and maybe they're trying, but maybe their hands are tied or the firm just doesn't have the projects to put you on. So sometimes. Even though they say they will, maybe they can't.

whatever the reason is. I think sooner or later you really have to start taking control in your own hands instead of waiting on your environment to change. if it's noticeably not changing. I find a lot of architectural firms don't change as quickly, and that's why, you know, people are looking for careers outside of architecture where there's a different timeframe.

Anamika: For sure. Yeah. I do think everyone needs to be the driver of their own career path to just like, You need to be the driver of your own life, right? And working career is a big part of that. So yeah, I would agree. I don't [00:13:00] think you can really, even if you assume best intent, I don't think you can rely completely on an employer doing that for you or even knowing what you want or what you need.

And I think it's probably in everyone's best interest to just, start learning how to have those conversations with themselves.

Silvia: What's another thing I realized is that your employer also has their best interests at heart. So even if you have a really great relationship with them, I think that's what I found out during the pandemic. At the end of the day, they're watching out for themselves before they watch out for you, and I think that's like a harsh reality sometimes.

Anamika: It is. Yeah, and I'm, I think it's painful when people have to learn that through a direct experience, but it's true. It's like a company is gonna make decisions in the best interest of the company.

I think if you're lucky and have leadership at the company that seems to be very people focused, you know, maybe that can help. Maybe there's like a softer approach to it, but at the end of the day, Companies will do what they have to do.

Silvia: I think that kind of segues into a question that I had [00:14:00] before when you said the health of the project in relation to the overall company. And can you elaborate that on that a little more? Because I think it's very different architecture. I don't really think about the project financials or the company financials to the most part. But once you move into tech and startups, actually it's very clear that what the focus of the entire company is to keep making money.

Out of (Traditional) Architecture But Still Building
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Anamika: Yeah, and I think I maybe wanna take this moment to make a distinction between getting out of architecture, I think there's a distinction between working at a traditional architecture firm versus still working on buildings and the built environment and projects that are architectural. And I, I think a lot of really talented folks in a desire to get away from the environment of a traditional architecture firm, maybe whether they wanted to or not or maybe didn't have a chance to really investigate deeply, I think end up working in fields that have nothing [00:15:00] to do with buildings and architecture in the built environment or a spacial design. I think because there is such an aversion to and so many downsides to the traditional architecture firm environment.

But I think one plug I would like to make is I think there are companies and environments out there that are very much working on architecture and construction, where it's possible to have a healthy environment and a different approach to it. And yeah, these tend to be smaller and newer companies and maybe there isn't that same, same exact steady, super steady, super overly steady job security that you get in an architecture firm.

But at least for me, it's been a really rewarding place to be. Where, yeah, I'm not at, I'm like very far from a traditional architecture practice at this point, but I've always known that working on buildings was really important to me and I think just, I think for anyone out there who's looking, I would encourage you to just keep finding ways.

If I, I don't know. I just feel if we all put in so much work to going to [00:16:00] architecture school and learning how to design buildings, Like if nothing else, it comes from a love for doing that. And I would just love to plug that. I think there are options out there, but yeah, they just take a little more looking.

But going back to your question, I think these tend to be smaller in earlier companies, but at companies with high transparency, I have at least seen that the leadership does a great job of just communicating. At the end of the day, we're a business and a business needs to make money. But let's do it in a way that's healthy.

So what that means is like the project's been properly vetted, we are managing our risk as architects or builders on the project properly. We're resourcing the team correctly. So no one's either underutilized or overutilized, which could mean either board or burnt out. It's like we don't want either of those things for anyone on our team.

We wanna make sure that. Invoicing and billing is happening in a way that the cash flow is just predictable, both for the client and for us. We don't wanna, we never wanna pin ourselves in a corner with all of these things, and [00:17:00] if those things are in place, then I think designers are in a way better spot to just focus on design and do what they do really well, which is, Design problem, solve and create and document and all of the stuff that brings a client to a company in the first place.

But I think in a, in an environment where those kind of like structural aspects aren't being considered and aren't being communicated clearly with the rest of the team, it can easily feel like you're either working in a vacuum or you're just fighting, losing battle. No matter what you do on the design of that project, like it's never gonna be a positive outcome for everyone involved.

Silvia: I think you're stating exactly what the problem is as a person working in architecture, like in a traditional architecture office, sometimes it doesn't feel like things are changing if there's a problem with staffing, but if there's a problem with staffing on every single project, like why can't we fix it?

Or like why is it like always sometimes projects are staffed heavily then taken off when. Changes or budget or like pause in the [00:18:00] project and then thrown on another project. Like it's a mess sometimes. And it's really nice to see that it is possible to do better.

is your take on like. Why, it's so hard to manage studios a little better? Because at the end of the day, the people feeling like bearing the burden. Are those people working at their desks for extended hours every day?

Anamika: Yeah. I don't have all the answers, obviously. Like I've still, I've only worked at a handful of companies and there's a lot of perspectives here that are all valid.

But that said, my take is that I think architects have a tendency to hire architects to do everything. It's like, why is an architect doing finances? Probably not the best fit I think. I think roles at companies that should go to individuals who are experts at them are probably some kind of finance leadership role and some kind of operations leadership role.

In my career, I've definitely chosen to go the operations route, and that's like my title and role [00:19:00] at Riley Projects right now is, To manage the health of the operations of the company. And in our stage right now, that means like a very healthy balance between how projects are going and how people are doing.

And I also feel like at architecture firms, there usually aren't people managers. There are usually project managers and project architects. And if you happen to get some mentorship or guidance along the way, it's a little bit. Accidental or just a second. A second thought at best. So yeah, I think maybe that's coming out to three functions.

That, and look, I get that it takes a certain number of, a certain amount of revenue to be able to support roles like this, but I would argue that you probably shouldn't scale until you can figure out how to have these functions like pretty well defined for companies that are maybe 10 people and fewer.

Yeah. This. You might never get there and the intent might be to not get there. But I think for anyone who is at a company, like again, these are rough numbers, but like 10 ish people or more, and you want that company to be a healthy [00:20:00] place to work. I would say that keep an eye out for someone who's focused on the finances and has an expertise and background in finance.

Same with operations, same with people. And that could maybe become a vetting strategy for anyone on the job market right now Who's looking for a place to work that feels meaningfully different than an architecture firm.

Silvia: Yeah. And everyone has different interests. Maybe there's an architect that cares a lot about financials or just like numbers are their thing. Or like operations or like just. People who work really well with other people and like creating good morale on teams and just getting teams to work well together. So I think people that shine in these places hopefully will have opportunities where they can make decisions.

Anamika: Sure.

Developing Your Personal Style for Operations
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Silvia: I'm curious what your approach to operations is? If you like to be really super organized in a particular way, maybe you, that carries out throughout the rest of your life. So I'm curious if you have any go-tos ways of doing things

Anamika: It's funny how much of this just becomes personal style and then you have to be careful of if. [00:21:00] If your personal style is influencing a company or a team too much, so that can, I think like when you get to that point, it's important to be reflective about that.

I think that. To answer your question more directly, I think one of my approaches to operations is to be really good at zooming into details and then out to the big picture, like constantly and being able to connect the dots there. I think without that, it's really easy to either just. Stay too far away from the actual work being done.

And I think everyone's probably experienced the boss or manager who just says things that don't feel tangible or don't feel actionable or aren't realistic with the time you have to do 'em. And then if you're too much in the detail, then obviously it's really tough to guide a team and blend perspective that they themselves don't have from where they sit.

Especially at a company where you're operating across design, pre-construction and construction, it's like a lot of threads going all across the teams and folks involved [00:22:00] at different projects at different times, and you just have to maintain that big picture. But, and enough awareness of the details. I think there's also probably also just like some basics of operations.

A lot of this maybe comes from manufacturing mentality and without, without going too far into the trope of the house is like a car, let's build a house, like a car. Like not that. But I think there's probably a couple of business books out there that are really helpful in terms of. One, understanding the health of an operation in relation to what stage of maturity your company is in.

And I'm happy to share some of those titles later in this conversation. And then probably like another set of books that's been really helpful for me in terms of just like how to manage a team and kind of help everyone on your team reach their full potential. So I think that's, those are maybe my three answers.

I think understanding some basics of operations and knowing if you have. Serious bottlenecks or defects in your process, zooming in and out of the big picture and the [00:23:00] details constantly and becoming very good at that. And then number three is probably the kind of people focus and knowing how to, it's not even like extractive, getting the most out of your people.

Like I purposely didn't phrase it like that. I think it's more helping everyone reach their greatest potential, right? Because you want that. I think you want that to feel good from the employee's point of view and that. Their career is going in the direction they want it to. And that going back to our earlier topic, is like you as an employer are helping your employee achieve what they deem important at this time.

And I think if that can be a two-way street, then it's probably better for both parties in the long run.

Silvia: Yeah. Thank you for that clarification too, because sometimes companies do try to get the most out of their employees, but like at the detriment to their employees. Yeah. So it's not the same thing.

Anamika: Right. Companies like that tend to have really high churn, which means people leave really often and I. That can also be, I think, something that folks who are interviewing or looking at companies like, that's a [00:24:00] great question to ask companies. It's just how, like how long does someone stay? How often do people leave?

There are probably interview friendly ways to ask those questions, but I think important to know before you. Sign on to join a team.

Silvia: Yeah, I think also like when I was in architectural offices, a majority of the office skews very much more senior, older. And then when I look at the people that are in positions of leadership or really hard workers, just like leading a lot of projects or things in the company, they're also at the office all the time. Like if I'm going in on the weekend, I see a bunch of principals in on the weekend too, and it's very telling that's not exactly what I wanna do in 30 years.

Anamika: Yes, I've definitely had that realization where you look around at the leadership and you're like, this is not what I want for myself. Either these aren't the skills I wanna develop or what I wanna become great at, or this is not what I want my life outside of work and my life inside of work to look like. And yeah, I think that's really important.

Even if you're at a place where you don't see yourself in the leadership, at [00:25:00] least for me, it's still been helpful to say, okay, this place has something to offer. What is that? Let me find out what that is, and then let me find out how long it makes sense for me to spend time gleaning that or gaining that from this place of employment before going to the next place.

Learning to Manage People
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Silvia: Yeah, for sure.

And I actually wanted to ask the question about operations, but also about leadership too.

Mm-hmm. You mentioned you have an affinity for it, or you find yourself in that position a lot and enjoy it. how do you think about leadership and mentoring other people? Is it hands-on or is it more listening? What is your approach?

Anamika: It's a lot of both of those things for sure. I think at Cottage, I was the second employee and there was no team when I started I think a lot of the leadership came from building a really strong team around me, whereas at Riley Projects it's been really different because I joined and It was a 14 person company and 11 of those people are on the team that I'm managing, right? So there were a lot of people, some of who had been there for [00:26:00] eight or 10 years, which was really attractive to me and part of why I wanted to join. There was just a lot of knowledge and experience and I think just that feel of how certain people at the company operate and how they communicate, and it was definitely very different figuring out how to step into a leadership role in that scenario versus a hey, like blank canvas. Hire a team around you.

So I think the level at which you're being hands on versus listening really depends on the context, and I think a good leader needs to be like, Very good at picking up those cues and adjusting accordingly.

And that can sometimes change like week by week or employee by employee.

So if you have an employee who is, I think really early in their career and maybe hasn't developed the independence, On certain tasks or part of their job, that might require a very close management style versus if you have other people on your team that you're managing who maybe are very independent or wanna develop that [00:27:00] independence, that might be like a bit more of stepping back and letting them learn by doing and not managing so closely.

And then, yeah, I definitely think that that should be a two-way conversation too. There's no reason, I think for. Managers and employees to be guessing at that. So does my manager realize how bad this feels? Does my manager realize I need more direction cuz I'm lost? Does my manager realize I'm feeling micromanaged?

I think the key here is just developing really healthy ways to talk about that stuff regularly and. Again, not taking it personally when these things are said, it's really just, Hey, here's something I've observed. It is working for me, or it isn't working for me for these reasons, and I'm wondering if we can do more of X, or, I'm wondering if we can do less of X.

And then as the manager, it's a lot of just asking. It's like, Hey, my style has been X, Y, Z. I'm curious how this feels for you, and do you think it's enabling you to X A, B, C in the ways that you want to?

As much as possible, taking the emotion away from it and being open to that feedback is. For me at least been the best way to go.[00:28:00]

Silvia: Have there been any surprises in your past experiences with managing people? And I asked that more so like something that you didn't expect and like maybe you were approaching something one way and then oh, they turned out they wanted it a completely different way, or something that you didn't go as planned.

Anamika: I'm the second most recent employee at Riley Projects and like I said, like the majority of the company reports to me right now, which has been interesting. I think like I've been very careful to, I don't wanna step on people's toes, but I've been very pleasantly surprised with how just welcoming and open everyone on that team has been.

And I think just craving more structure and more close management. I think where I was feeling like maybe I'm like, I'm being overbearing or I'm spelling this out in too much detail, I think, I think that level of attention has actually helped folks feel more productive and more clear in what they should be working on.

So that's been definitely a surprise. It was like something I had to learn and realize, but I [00:29:00] don't think I would've learned or realized had I not constantly asked everyone how this is going and how it's feeling. I think eventually it will also be my job to acknowledge when, okay, this close management style, like folks are on task, on Target, they are.

Reaching a higher potential than they could a couple months ago, but now actually reaching their next potential means them being able to self-manage a little bit more. So I think it'll be, as the manager, I have to lead that shift in terms of stepping back and enabling people to grow into kind of the next version of them, of themselves at work.

Managing Healthy Teams and People
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Silvia: How did you move into this role, like through, during your career of managing people instead of projects?

Anamika: I will say, I think it's, for now, it's been a pretty healthy mix of the two managing people in projects. This, again, might come from the fact that I tend to work on either smaller or earlier teams where.

Everyone's wearing multiple [00:30:00] hats. Honestly, I'm probably a little better at the people management than the project management. But yeah, I don't know. I think it's just as early as possible and as early as makes sense and is not completely irresponsible. It's great to just work in as many different places as you can and try out as many different types of roles as you can, and I, I think even without going and doing a certain job for two years, there's a lot to be learned by just trying to grab informational interviews with people and really digging into it's what is a day in the life or a week in the life of your position look like? What does it mean? I think that can be really indicative if you're hearing and doing things that give you energy, then you're probably onto something and you probably wanna keep doing more of that.

But if what you're hearing or doing in those experiences is draining and you're just like, oh, like talking to people all day sounds terrible. Like I really would just like rather really obsess over details for a week. Like that. Sounds amazing. I think it's. I think once you get in the habit of [00:31:00] kind of asking yourself if something feels right to you and this just chasing that, I think it makes it faster over the course of your career to land in a place that feels right.

Silvia: And you mentioned before understanding the day in a life of someone that, or like the jobs that you might want be interested in or take on. So what does your week look like? A typical week, and maybe it's every day looks a little different.

Anamika: Right now it is a lot of, it's a lot of meetings, I think because I'm like, I'm early to this company.

Everyone's early to working with me and with each other. I think that close management style has been really helpful. And as I've alluded to, like I'm right now managing three teams. There's an architecture design team, there's a pre-construction team and a construction team, and. The work of all of those three teams is quite different.

When you have a team that's completely in the field and in market and then you have your design team is like almost completely remote at this point. Pre-construction, a little bit in between, and also talking to external parties all the time. Yeah, I would [00:32:00] say it's like still pretty fluid and I'm figuring it out, but right now I think it's just been a lot of FaceTime with the team, so we get used to each other faster and work out the kinks faster so that eventually we can all develop that independence to run on our own.

And I think at the point that happens, I'll probably start working more closely with the CEO. Right now it's just about stabilizing and strengthening our current pipeline. But I think as that happens, we'll probably start thinking about how to grow the business into either new revenue streams or additional project types.

Fostering a Culture of Everyday Leadership
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Silvia: And you mentioned that you were pleasantly surprised that the team wanted more structure. What kind of structure were they looking for that you added or like that you were able to, if your fresh eyes implement?

Anamika: I think a lot of my team are first time managers and so I think just even a lot of, there's like a workshop series I've started running at the company for just like management and leadership workshop and it's, I'm trying to drive home the points of everyday leadership.

[00:33:00] So it's just like the way you do small things really adds up to become your own personal leadership style. So as an example, it's like how to take PTO in a way that no one feels lost or confused when you're gone and you don't feel like you can't step away because things will fall apart.

So it's just like planning ahead over communicating. Leaving an out of office plan, just making sure your areas of the business are covered so you really can just sit on the beach without a laptop and not worry about it. And that I think increases the quality and quantity of P T O that people can take.

Small things like how to run a meeting. It's send out your main topics ahead of time. If there's something you want folks to read beforehand, send it out like a week early or. Three days early so that you're not filling half of your meeting time, just getting everyone caught up. And you can actually use that to discuss and make some decisions.

And then you know how to leave a meeting with very clear action items. It's like, who's doing it? What's, [00:34:00] what is it and when is it happening by? And I think just like small details like that I think have been really helpful to reinforce with the team here. And it's nice to just see folks be, again, very welcome to it, but I think starting to run with it on their own.

It's been interesting to reinforce that, but then also reinforce that everyone's approach to that very much is their own personal style and that my leadership style shouldn't be right for anyone else. It should only be right for me.

Silvia: It's music to my ears to hear you explain it in a way that like these things will help bring on positive benefits.

So like maybe not everyone likes to be organized to that point and like worrying about every single detail, but if you can get P T O where you really can turn your phone off and feel comfortable about it, then it's worth it. And. Also when you said like in all the little details of your day that add up to leadership.

Yeah. That just sounds beautiful. Who wouldn't wanna work in a place like that.

Anamika: Yeah, no, thank you. I'm glad that resonates. It's just [00:35:00] a constant experiment, but one that I've been really happy to run and lucky to have the trust from my manager to run. So yeah, I will give a lot of credit there to Noah Riley, who's the CEO and my manager at this job, but he's, he is very open to change and trying new things and I think has put a lot of trust in his team.

So that's been, that's been just really great environment for me to work in over the past couple months.

The Right Amount of Autonomy Comes From Good Hiring Practices
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Silvia: Yeah. Can we talk a little bit about autonomy, because I feel you are given a lot of that, but also you're giving that back to the people that you manage, and I feel like that really lets people shine in where they work and like what does a healthy workplace where everyone has that support and freedom, what helps create that?

Or what have you noticed?

Anamika: Yeah, really good point. I think autonomy can sometimes be incredible, but I think too much autonomy can actually be a little debilitating where you just show up and there's been like 20 things vaguely discussed and you really don't know. What [00:36:00] you're supposed to be working on, and I think in an environment that's not very transparent and communicative, you also become discouraged to ask it's, Hey, I'm unclear about X, Y, Z.

What should I be working on? If that type of communication and behavior is discouraged, then of course you just have a tendency to stay at your desk. In this remote world, it's even easier to just be at your desk and be confused and end the day feeling completely ineffective, which I think most people in the world don't like to feel ineffective.

I think I can. Safely say that, but yeah, I think a lot of this just comes back to like really great hiring practices. If you're a company that doesn't put in the upfront effort to hiring, then you're probably hiring people that you don't fully trust and then that kind of. Creates this cycle of mistrust in micromanagement and lack of autonomy over time.

And then that probably also increases your churn. So suddenly your hiring process is way more about quantity and way less about quality. And I think, yeah, that you can start [00:37:00] to see how that culture would perpetuate. So I think this is again, where it's really helpful in any company to have someone whose primary job is to think about the people side of things, where that person is given the resources and time and bandwidth to focus on recruitment as part of what part of the people side of the business and isn't simultaneously worried about.

Construction documents and also trying to hire, cuz that is often, I think the same person can often be saddled with both at a company and it's, I think a lot of people can be great at both. And I think architects tend to be people who can be good at a lot of different things, but to do both of those things justice and to do them well at the same time, I think is really challenging and maybe not even a good idea in the first place.

Yeah, so I think it really starts in the beginning. I think if you as an organization can give a very close look to how you hire, it just perpetuates a lot of positive things. [00:38:00] And I would say to anyone looking, I think you can learn a lot about a company from the hiring process.

Just reflect on how you felt. During your conversations with those people, did you feel empowered and trusted and did it feel like a two-way conversation or were you in the room afraid to ask certain questions? Maybe your time wasn't valued. Maybe it felt disorganized, like I think usually companies are on their best behavior during an interview.

I think whatever gut feeling you get about a place based on that process is probably gonna be true later on as well.

Silvia: Yeah, that's almost like an incredibly hard place to navigate through. Almost like trying to understand the environment that you're gonna be putting yourself into for a full-time job.

because I didn't see any red flags like in my interview. Like But I feel very fortunate where I landed currently, and I have a very good relationship with all my coworkers that I feel able to say, Hey, this isn't really working. Can we fix things up? And have it be taken the right way.

But I feel like, I [00:39:00] don't know if I was, I. Able to see that would be so from the interview process, although they were very communicative, like very on top of things. And actually that was like, I wanna work with people that get back to me right away. So maybe a little bit.

Anamika: Yeah, I think so. And then, so I think there's also a lot of strategy around, as the employee, how to handle an interview process. It's, I don't know if this is the right approach, but my approach is usually to let the employer run with it until you have an offer. But that time between when you have an offer and when you accept the offer, I think is your own chance to interview the company basically, and just get your questions and concerns answered and do the level of betting that you want to.

And I also understand like this is maybe something I'm, I maybe have a little more freedom to do just by nature of the types of. Companies roles I've been interested in recently, but I have definitely asked my past two employers to like speak with current or previous [00:40:00] employees and just be like, I wanna hear what you're like to work with.

And I think that has been really telling and there's definitely a way to do it that feels collaborative and I don't think anyone should be made to feel put on the spot during an interview process. And I think, yeah, just I think a lot of that kind of gut feeling is gonna be very informative.

An Architect as a Starting Point
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Silvia: How would you define an architect, and I'm even more curious to ask this because you defined in the beginning like disclaimer, I'm almost a licensed architect and like I totally get it,

Anamika: Yes, I've definitely been on the receiving end of some attacks around you're not an architect, stop calling yourself that, which I think in this kind of the kind of American professional environment is valid.

I think there's just like a legal terminology that if you're working in the profession you have agreed to follow, but zooming out from that. I think especially from doing work abroad, like doing a bunch of projects in kind of East Africa and India, I think the definition of an architect [00:41:00] there, like functionally, what are you doing on the project, is like huge and vastly different than what it means here.

I think like you're, the labor force you're working with is just. Very, I think, skilled and trained really differently than the construction labor force you'd see in the States usually. And so it's like construction documents, is that even a thing? Huge question mark. Is there, do you get any say over detailing in materials and spec?

And probably not. You take what you can get, but I think in those. Situations for those projects specifically, which it was a lot of like schools and community centers. It's like being an architect really means being a community catalyst in a lot of ways. And I think being like really respectful of the fact that you are someone from a privileged country parachuting in, yeah, I'm brown, which helps, but I'm still like American and very privileged and I think have to be really sensitive to the context difference there.

Versus I think being an [00:42:00] architect and a at a firm on the East coast, I think had a very traditional definition to it, which is part of what prompted my move to the West Coast where kind of being an architect and having a background in architecture was, I think, more of a open door than a closed door.

And I think a lot of times in the traditional environment it felt like, That term was more designed to create limits as to what you could do, whereas in these, I think it's a combination of being on the west coast and being at companies that are just trying to do things differently. But again, I don't think it's a coincidence that these companies exist on the West coast.

I think that word has actually felt like a starting point. Oh, let's think of all the things you can do with this incredible set of skills and training that you have. Yeah, I think that definition is definitely still in the works for me, but I think it's maybe to give you a sense of how it's felt different through various experiences.

Create Your Own Path In Architecture
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Silvia: Yeah, that's a very good description and I'm really glad to see that it's a starting off point because, and like how you prefaced it [00:43:00] earlier, Out of Architecture is not about leaving architecture at all. It's just. Taking our skills and doing more than what we've been doing in the past. And because it's so limiting, like you mentioned.

Anamika: Yeah, exactly. And again, to just repeat the plug from earlier, I think anyone out there who's sick of what work feels like as much as possible, just try to separate that from like the thing you actually want to be working on. Cuz there are a million different ways to. Be an architect and be involved with whichever aspect of the built environment you find exciting.

And I would say it's easier than ever now also to be self-employed and still have a lot of the safety, security, and like health benefits, et cetera, that you would look to an employer for. Sure that might mean like working for yourself in the evenings for a year or so, but I think it's amazing how quickly those things can pick up with an honest effort.

And at that point, a lot of what you don't like [00:44:00] about your current job, you would be completely under your control. And then there's also so many ways to hire out. If you don't feel like doing your own accounting, you can just get someone hourly. And it like, I think that rigidity around like building a company and having it only be full-time hires and you yourself needing to work only full-time. I think a lot of that is starting to disappear and remote work has helped.

And yeah, just a final plug, that there are a lot of ways to, if working on buildings in the built environment on like space and spatial design and materiality, if all of that stuff is like part of what gets you excited, I think don't get disheartened so quickly that you lose that as well.

I think they're. I don't think becoming a product designer is the only answer, and I would hate for so much of the talent that is in the industry to just suddenly leave because I think the obvious ways of working do tend to be pretty difficult, but there are a lot of less obvious [00:45:00] ways of working that can be really satisfying.

Silvia: And when you say you're gonna have to like try it out for years, like your own gig. A year may sound like a long time, but it flies by, especially like if you're staying three years at a place, like it just flies by, right?

Anamika: Yeah, it does. And disclaimer, full disclaimer is I'm playing with that right now as well.

So I was lucky enough to take a five, five month gap between my last job and this job, and during that time had started taking on a few of my own clients and it's like, Really not even trying to do business development. It's like I probably need to start freelancing some workout to others because it's just like more than I wanna work outside of work.

But it's amazing to have reached a point of having that choice relatively quickly and with $0 spent on marketing or business development. So I think if parts of that sound appealing to someone, there's no harm in just trying and you can easily write up a contract that. Frees you of all liabilities, of whatever you don't wanna be [00:46:00] liable for.

Like I think that stuff can be incredibly tailored to what you're looking for as well. So yeah, I think there's a lot of ways to stay engaged with this type of expertise. Even if the work environment you're in right now isn't the right one for you.

Silvia: I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Anamika as much as I did. Now let's hear from Luis from the OOA community

Highlighting Luis Velez
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Luis: My name is Luis Veli. I'm originally from Puerto Rico, was born and raised in Puerto Rico. I went to many different schools. I went to about nine different schools before I graduated high school, so I moved around a lot. When I was a kid. I played a lot with Legos. I was really good at math. I was the class artist, if you will, which led me to a teacher, introduced me to the local architect in my town, which then led me to explore this career path in architecture as an opportunity when I was going to go to college.

Yeah. So I practice [00:47:00] architecture for roughly 16 years without including the educational part of it. I am currently working in financial planning and I would one day love to be able to coin the term financial architect. That's my goal.

Silvia: Being on the other side of your switch, how do you look back on that and feel like towards your previous career as an architect, but also do you wish you made the switch earlier or was all of that part of the journey to get where you are today?

Luis: Yeah, I'm the type of person, I have no regrets of what I did in past, I had a long career for all intents and purposes. I had great project, met a lot of great people in the way, won a few awards, won some. Project awards, some personal awards. Created a few things within the community at, when I was living in dc, created the committee, which is Latin American interior designers, engineers, architects, to give back to my community as a Hispanic architect.

And I do not [00:48:00] regret my path from where I started to our, where I am right now. I think our career, our as the architects, builds a lot of. Empathy. It builds a lot of connectivity to what's important in a community. I'm able to have a different perspective on the job that I do today based on my experiences of what I did in the past.

Um, so having said that, I really would not change anything of how my career developed over the next last 16 years.

Silvia: That's amazing and it really sounds like where you are today. It's really just like the transformation of your goals as a person and like your abilities and skills.

Luis: Being from Puerto Rico and in my upbringing in architecture school, a lot of the things we were doing were community-based. We had community workshops. We went to. Physically going to communities, talk to the people there, trying to figure out what their needs were, and then provided projects that were headed in that direction. When I did go [00:49:00] to quote unquote professional architecture and move to the United States work, um, I was still looking for that connectivity.

Like my thesis was, uh, community workshop space, right? That was my day-to-day kind of my thinking of what architects did and what they provided. And honestly, I found myself working a a lot with sort of more. Corporate or commercial type projects, which have their place, they're important. But that part of me of how am I impacting like a community or a group of people was lacking to be honest.

That's why I did a lot of things outside of practice that in a way kept me engaged with that side of what I wanted to do. Having said that, I feel I'm way more engaged with my community, meeting people, talking to people than I ever did before when I was just behind a desk working on projects, working in SketchUp, Revit, all these things without actually talking to the end user, other [00:50:00] than just the one sort of person that would be the client.

But again, not any, no regrets, just that's the way the path led me to what I did today.