Ep 2: Embracing Change and Iben Falconer
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Iben: [00:00:00] I think that has been a gift of my career that I'm not afraid of change and switching in roles and switching in industries kind of Right. I've, I've always kind of been within the built environment. I think that has kept me on my toes. I think it has kept my skills sharp. It's helped me understand what my real skills are. and yeah, I'm proud of that.

Silvia: Welcome to Tangents by Out of Architecture. Out of architecture is a career resource network helping designers apply their incredible talents in untraditional ways. We're highlighting some of our favorite stories from the amazing people we've met along the way. We will hear how they created a unique career path for themselves from the wide variety of skills and talents they developed in and out of architecture.

This is your host, Silvia Lee. And I'm excited to share that this season we're highlighting our out of architecture community members. At the end of each [00:01:00] episode, you'll hear a little bit from a community member about where they are in their career journey. So make sure you listen to the end.

Our guest today is Iben falconer. Global marketing and business development leader and senior associate principal at som. Hear Iben share her experiences changing roles throughout her career and how not being afraid of change has opened up new opportunities for her.

3 words: Curious, Driven, Empathetic
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Silvia: To start off, our favorite question is, how would you describe yourself in three words?

Iben: The first word's, definitely curious and maybe if you'd only given me an option for one word, I would still say just curious. I am driven.

These are, I guess, again, putting this in the caveat of like, these are professional words. Uh, and then the other is empathetic. I. Love the social aspect of my job. I really like working with other people and I truly believe that you can get the best work from people when they feel valued and heard and [00:02:00] respected.

so I think being an empathetic. Colleague and an empathetic leader is, is really important to me

Silvia: and i, I can't wait to hear more of that as we hear about your career journey. And what is your background in architecture?

Not an Architect
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Iben: So I will, should right off the bat admit that I'm not an architect. Um, so technically I don't need to be out of architecture because I, was never in the center of it anyhow.

I studied architecture history, both undergrad and my masters. I worked in. Architecture firms and also in organizations around the built environment, coming out of school. And I thought I wanted to be an architect and, and had the good fortune to work at really at one particularly good firm in, in Seattle that was, formative not only in terms of starting my career, but also in terms of setting my expectations for how. One should be treated. and so, uh, from there I said, okay, I'm, I'm gonna go to architecture school because I'm interested in architecture, but I didn't, I didn't do design classes in, in [00:03:00] college, and I applied to architecture school and I got in, and then I had this sort of sinking feeling that this actually wasn't the right thing for me.

Maybe it wasn't, I guess just a realization that that wasn't what I wanted to do at that moment. And that three years is a big commitment of time and of money. and so I ended up changing my mind and what my dad refers to as the great bait and switch of my twenties. I ended up going to do, uh, a master's of architecture history in theory instead.

And, and it's a kind of an unusual program at Yale, the Master's of Environmental Design Program, in that it's very, Self-directed and open-ended. You come in with a research project and you leave doing a thesis project. Most of us at the time were doing written thesis projects, and my project was on the relationship between nationalism and promotion and contemporary Danish architecture.

It's a very small program. I had two classmates and it was in an architecture school, so all my friends [00:04:00] were architects. Um, and from there I graduated. And kind of the running joke amongst my friends in, in school was, what are you gonna do with this degree? And then I graduated into the recession. and the deep irony was that the architects had an extremely hard time finding work.

And because I was a little left of center in terms of my career path, I, I was able to find work, which was, you know, who got the last laugh then? I thought at the time I wanted to be a curator. I went and did an internship at the Museum of Modern Art in the architecture and design department for summer, which was extremely fun.

And then I went and, um, got a job working for Stephen Holl, doing business development and marketing. And I had done some of that. I had, when I had interned at a firm before I had worked in the marketing department. So I, and I was a writer and I was at that point the ability to use InDesign. So, um, [00:05:00] That suited me really well, and I was there for, a little over a year when I got the opportunity to go and work for BIG, which I just had, was just opening its New York office, so this was in 2010, and that was really the formative experience for me and formative time in my career to get to be there, not only because of my Danish. Um, heritage and connection to Denmark, not only because I'd written about BIG for my thesis, but also because it was a firm that was starting up here in, in the US and was in an intense business development mode. And so it was just a really, really exciting time to be with that firm. And so I was there for, for six years leading business development here for North and South America.

And it was, it was really fun and hard and. Crazy. You know, we started at 13 people and by the time I left we were 200. So it was like, I describe it as like working in six different firms in six, in six years because there was so much [00:06:00] growth and change.

After that, I went and wanted to try something different. So I went and worked doing institutional strategy for Columbia gsap. So I want, I wanted to try working on, uh, for an on the institutional side and I was there for two years. I left that after, um, having our kid decided I wanted to try yet again, try something new. And I went and joined another Danish firm that had an office in New York, the urban design firm, Galil. Um, and I was there for there for two years. Um, then decided again that I wanted to try something different but wasn't quite sure what was next. Um, so I consulted a bit for a few months. And then I joined S O M in August of 2020, and I have been here ever since, working as the global marketing and business development leader.

Not being afraid of change
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Silvia: I, I like how you said that. Three years into your, um, education, you're like, I'm gonna make this big switch. And it is a big switch. You know, if you think about people making switch now after maybe 10 years [00:07:00] plus in, into their career, like that's even more of time.

Like, and that's like so many. Skills learned and like, you know, licensing exams. So I'm curious what it was that you just realized it wasn't for you. Um, like so early and so con confidently.

Iben: Yeah. I mean, so I didn't even, I didn't even, I didn't, it was, I didn't do three years in architecture school. I, I, like, I.

Did, um, nine months of applying to architecture school, I guess I did. Um, and, and one career discovery summer at at, at the G S D, which I describe as like baby architecture school in the best way. I think, I mean,

change is hard and change can be scary, but as maybe, as you can see from my career that I've made, I've made a lot of changes and I.

I guess maybe, maybe that's a word to describe me, is I'm not afraid of of change. I think in any, if anything else, I'm afraid of complacency and maybe because I've just had these [00:08:00] changes happen earlier in my career. I've had the experience of graduating into a, into a very unstable economy and, and having to rethink what my career path might be, even though it was at a very early age.

So it wasn't so much, um, There wasn't so much of kind of my ego or my finances riding on it cause I had no job. Right. I, I, I I think that has been a gift of my career. I mean, there's not many gifts from my career, but one of them I think is that I'm, that I have not, I'm not afraid of change.

and switching in roles and switching in industries kind of Right. I've, I've always kind of been within the built environment. It's not like I went and. Did two years as a accountant and then was a dentist and then did what I'm doing. Like, it's not, it's not huge, huge changes, but, I think that has kept me on my toes.

I think it has kept my skills sharp. It's helped me understand what my real skills are. Um, and yeah, [00:09:00] I'm proud of that. Uh, and like you said, it's, I think it's just a gift, a gift that my career has given me that, um, that I find really exciting.

But I completely understand why it's, the idea of change can become quite destabilizing.

And I've seen it, I've seen people who get stuck in a place, or I think maybe the biggest risk of not changing is that you stop imagining that things could be different. I see that like, you know, I, I made reference to the first firm, their first architecture firm that I worked for was a really positive work environment, and I will always give credit to my dad who gave me some of the best. career advice that I ever got, which was choose your first job carefully because it will set the tone for how you will be treated in the rest of your career. And this firm, I, uh, which is a firm called Weinstein Architects and Urban Designers in Seattle, they treated everyone really kindly and they treated their interns well and they were interested in our careers and, and in our, in our professional growth, even though they knew that we weren't going to be there for very [00:10:00] long and, So that set my expectation, this is how you treat people in a job.

And when I was at places where that wasn't the case, I knew that I needed to make an exit plan. And I knew that there were other options out there. And I think there's a lot of benefits to being a lifer somewhere. And there's a lot of people who've, who've had incredible careers where they've had their entire career in one place and they've managed to have. Different experiences and different roles within, within one organization. But I think one of the potential downsides that you see when people have spent a whole career somewhere is yeah, they, they can't imagine how things could be. And if you can't imagine it, then you're not going to push for it. You're not gonna try to change it yourself. so that's, that's been a, an a side effect, positive side effect for me, I think of, of career changes.

Silvia: Yeah, absolutely. You can see that each, Switch you made kind of open new opportunities like so, and it's, it's really amazing to be able to see all of that happen and be a part of that.

Your Career Journey Is Not A Straight Path
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Iben: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I remember, [00:11:00] um, funny, I was just talking to someone about this recently, that when I was in college and in grad school, I had a lot of informational interviews with people whom I admired, and they were often much older. So if I was in my early twenties, they would be in their. Fifties, maybe even times their sixties, like close to retirement.

Um, some of them. And I remember thinking like, I wanna do what you are doing right now. And so of course I would ask them, how did you get there? And then they would tell me these like meandering stories of how they got to where they were. And at the time it was actually kind of frustrating cuz I, cuz I was just like, well, you know, you had these, all these serendipitous encounters and these decisions and.

And that got them to where they are, but it wasn't a straight line. And I was like, I wanna do what they're doing now. What's the straight line to what they do? So at the time it was yeah, kind of disappointing or frustrating in some ways. Um, but now when I look at that and I think again, what a gift, [00:12:00] like I, I look back and I'm still mid-career.

I don't know what one would categorize me and I see those twists and turns in my own career path and, and I'm really grateful for them.

Tech+
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Silvia: I remember when I was younger, talking to older architects, but they would always be much more senior, like for someone coming out of school. The gap between starting out and getting anywhere where you feel somewhat comfortable is such a large gap to span.

And also like even when I talk to. Students nowadays, it's like, I don't know exactly what to tell you that can help you immediately because there's so much ahead of them. And then I guess it's kind of, you can give them the confidence to pursue that long journey ahead and just be open-minded perhaps.

But the hard skills that will get you from A to B are like, it's not very defined or easy to share.

Career is not a ladder, but a collection of skills
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Iben: Yeah. I mean, I, I've thought about, how. I think particularly people earlier in their career. [00:13:00] So I would put, put my past self in this too, you know, was very kind of focused on, kind of thinking about like a, a career as a ladder.

You know, you start at the bottom and over time you get to the top. So it's like very one directional. And it's, and it's purely thought about from a directional standpoint. I think it's more useful to think about it as, I've used this metaphor before as like, as a backpack, like it's a collection of skills and experience that you, one, doesn't necessarily come before another.

and I think particularly if you're interested in having a, a less traditional, career path, the latter kind of either is not attractive to you or it just doesn't apply to kind of how you're, you're doing that, that wandering. But if you can think about it like, okay, in this job I got. This experience and on this other job, I developed these sorts of skills and you kind of were constantly putting those back in your backpack as, as, as, uh, no, my backpack metaphor is gonna fail me, but I don't know, as [00:14:00] nourishment for the long journey.

I think it helps reframe how to think about one's career. And I think you know it guys, I imagine for the people who listen to this podcast are interested in exploring a, a kind of a non-traditional career or a non-traditional path, and. It, it can be disconcerting if you, if you've thought, oh, I'm just gonna be an architect, and first I'm gonna start as an intern, and then I'm gonna be a junior designer, and then I'm gonna be a senior designer, you know, whatever the, whatever the steps are within your particular firm, it can be disorienting if to all of a sudden kind of get knocked off that ladder and either, either take yourself off of it or get knocked off of it and say, okay, now what do I have if I don't have that, how do I define what I've done so far?

but I can imagine, I mean, you, if you left a career in architecture, so you, you know, you had to have these con these thoughts with yourself or these conversations about how do you redefine what your skills were and how, how do they translate into something else?

Silvia: Yeah. That's actually one of the questions I wanted to ask you was that you [00:15:00] kind of said that through each switch or each step of your career, you kind of realized what your strong, assets were that really. Made you shine in each, experience. I think a lot of mine, because I was in architecture so long is like the very work related, like how to be a hard worker or like very diligent, very detail oriented. You know, like how many times is detail oriented gonna pop up on someone's resume, right?

And, and actually when I switched to tech, those. Being good at, like getting work done was still something I relied on, but now it's kind of like, how do I be more actionable, get things done faster or more quickly? So I'm very curious to hear what yours are because I'm hoping it's not as focused on just producing work.

Iben: Yeah, I mean, it's funny, I, uh, especially in the role that I'm in now where I, so I, I came my previous roles. At Stephen Holl at BIG, to a certain extent at Gale. You know, I was in a client facing business development [00:16:00] role, so my, my job was to, depending on the role, be working on RFQ and RFPs and, you know, positioning us for work.

Um, and then some of the roles be just much more client facing and. So there were some hard skills that I had, like I know how to put together. I know how to not only put together a strong proposal, but I know how to project manage a proposal. And now in my role at s O m I am managing a team of people who, who do that.

Or in some ways I, I supervise a group of managers who manage teams who, who lead that work. So I'm a few more, I'm like at arm's length from, uh, from our car out of our day-to-day. Deadlines or week to week deadlines. And that is a shift for me. I'm used to being kind of right there in there and doing that.

And so it, it, it has helped for me to think about, okay, that skill I, I have mastered and I think it's a really important one to have. But now [00:17:00] the things that I'm working on are much kind of bigger strategic projects. Some days I'm extremely nostalgic for having a deadline, a weekly deadline, because you do it and then it's done, and then you finish the week and you can, and then it, it's behind you.

Right now, all of my projects are like six month to a year long projects, and they have multiple sub-projects. And so it's, it's, um, it's not often that I can just like cross something off my list and be like, oh, I did it, it's done and I don't have to think about it anymore. But I think, I'm gonna go back to your question.

I think what I've realized, one of my, or I've learned through time, kind of my, one of my strengths are it, it is to, set a strategic vision and also really, really help firms think about how do we approach business development? What are the kind of, what are our overall goals? How do we turn, whether, you know, it's a big ship, kind of turn a big ship and, and, and [00:18:00] shift in that way.

Um, And build a culture of business development. So that, that is what I get, that's what I'm very excited about today, that I get to work on. Um, but I've gone from kind of collecting more, task-based skills, uh, to more, to now gaining more strategy abilities. I think that comes with time. so when I, sometimes I talk to people who are interested in a career in business development, they're like, I wanna do a strategy.

I'm like, well, Cool strategy is like, is a lot of fun, but like you also need to know how to do these com component pieces of it. and once you can start to do more of that, then you can build on top of it and, and layer in more sort of what I guess higher and higher level strategy. Can

Silvia: you share a little bit about what marketing and business development and strategy are for architecture firms?

Sure. Because I think it's completely different outside of architecture and then even within architecture. I, I believe the way that you handle it is also different, a little different than traditional architecture firms. [00:19:00]

Iben: Yeah. So I, I tend to use the word business development more than I do marketing. For a couple reasons, which I can touch on later, but I, the way I define business development is it's everything that a firm does or a person does to get work.

So it's an extremely broad definition. And, you know, it's everything from the R F Q R F P work to client relationships, to negotiation, to transforming a relationship through with a client, through a project. all of that is business development in my mind. I think the most important, pieces of it are strategy, kind of like making a plan for where you wanna go.

Not only where you wanna go, but how you're gonna do it. I think storytelling is extremely important in business development, uh, in any industry. Um, and then ultimately it's also, it's all about relationships. So those kind of strategy, storytelling and relationships is how I, if you, if you can bring all three of those together, you [00:20:00] have a strong platform for business development.

Silvia: When you were switching, um, from one place to another, was it more similar to applying to a position or was it kind of like, we're gonna kind of like create this role that may not exist at the firm already?

Iben: A little bit of both. I've had a number of, uh, let's create a role together.

Positions, uh, let's see, let's go back in time. Uh, I mean, Stephen Holl, I applied for a role that was posted BIG. I can't remember if they had. No, I don't think they had posted something yet. I had, I had known, because I had written my thesis in part on Big, I had become, um, friendly with the partner who's in charge of business development, a great, guy and mentor.

Cava Bergman. And when I was thinking about leaving Steven Hall, I reached out to him and I said, um, I'm thinking about leaving. He's like, I think we should talk. And then I think I had a call at Bier like later that afternoon or it, it, it kind of went pretty quickly, which was exciting cuz they were just, Starting to think about how they were gonna hire in, in New York.

When I went to [00:21:00] Columbia Gsap, that was a position that we made up. I was director of strategic initiatives. It was institutional strategy. So yeah, that definitely wasn't, was not like a, a position that had existed beforehand. And when I went to Gale, it was also a new position. When I came to, so m it was, it was not a new position, but it was a position that was, that was in transition.

So they were changing how they were thinking about the role. So I, yeah, I've done, I've done both.

Silvia: Is there a bit of storytelling in that as well where you're, maybe you have a vision and then you have to share that vision to the prospective firm and kind of create it together? Like what, how do those meetings, or like how does that conversation go?

Iben: I mean, they're really, they're really rooted in relationships, so it's a lot easier to have an open-ended conversation about a potential role when you already know the person, which, Probably me sharing that can be both exciting and frustrating. Cause if someone's trying to make a change and they're like, but I don't know anyone, does that mean that this can't happen?[00:22:00]

But yeah, I mean, it, it helped that they were, it was all, you know, with, with Columbia, I had gotten to know the Dean. at the time I'm all in Drows and said, I'm thinking about leaving. I'm thinking I'm interested in doing something like this. She's like, we're interested in doing something like that.

Would you, you know, should we. Come up with something together. and same when I was at Gale. Um, so for me, I think it does help though that I have like a core set of skills, right? It's very hard to come to a potential employee and say, or employee, it's a potential employer, and say, Hey, do you wanna hire me?

I'm family really. I'm really cool, you know, like I did. I do need to line up with some. I need to, I need to align with kind of where that company is heading and where, where their goals are. And I've also, I've learned that in making some of those changes that sometimes the cha sometimes those new positions when they don't ultimately align with where, what the company is trying to do, then [00:23:00] you feel that that has, that has been a, I guess, a negative, but also positive realization through my career that you still.

You know, most companies aren't gonna be afford just to have someone over there just thinking about strategy, right? Like you still, you need to line up with what, The changes that the company is, is un is undergoing.

Thank you for

Silvia: sharing that. Like it could be frustrating to hear that someone's like, I got my roles through relationships, but I think you also highlighted that you can create those relationships very much and like you can turn just a meeting into someone, into a second meeting.

So, um, and actually that's how this podcast actually got started, which I, we mentioned a little earlier. It's just, I knew Jake and Erin, I really wanted to take my previous skills that were like, I, you know, I published a podcast before. I was like, well, I could do that for you. And, and actually it took several months, like they were interested, but even then it took several months of meetings just to, and then a few more just to get it off the ground.

Yeah. So I think that's another thing to [00:24:00] keep in mind that. You can make change very quickly and especially if you're doing it through relationships to like give yourself that time and space to create this new role or opportunity.

What is Your Career Dream List
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Iben: Yeah, I mean it's a lot if you're, if you're like, if you're looking for a job right now, it's a hell of a lot easier to just apply through like someone's supposed to have description cuz then at least a company or a person has confirmed that we have this specific need.

And if you can match that specific need. You're golden. I mean, another, my, another, you can tell that my dad is kind of my, um, career, uh, counselor, I guess. another really good piece of advice that he gave me was when you are thinking about making a change to. Keep a list, kinda like a running list.

And he actually, he had it as a journal, I had it as a Google doc, which says something about generational changes where you write down regular, you know, semi-regularly, what you like doing, what you're good at, and that can be everything from what [00:25:00] you wanna be doing. That can be everything from like really specific skills.

Like I feel very happy when I redline a document or you know, some, you know, there's some deep satisfaction of like, Look, this, this came in looking like this and I sent it back out better, to higher level, desires or ambitions. And he recommended, you know, cause my dad's someone who's also made some big career shifts to do that over time and you'll start to see some trends.

And he also said, you tend not to lie to yourself. Like you might lie to yourself the first time you do it. Or, or kind of be like, oh, I really am fascinated. I wanna, and by this, and then you're kind of like, I don't know why I wrote that. That was like, For appearances only, even though I'm the only one who reads this document.

And he said, he said, over time, you know, you'll start to see some, some patterns that will help you identify kind of where, what the next thing might be. And so I've, I've always, I've always done that. I've always kind of had a list of what do I like? And it, it does shift over time. But what's interesting is not tremendously.

Um, maybe that's some, some something [00:26:00] about the. Point in my career that I'm in. Um, but I've also always used it to keep a list of people that I want to talk to and not because I am like seeking to work with them, but I, I've kind of cultivated a group of people who have given me really good career advice in the past and have helped me step back from.

You know, looking at my career from two inches away and said, okay, what does it look like from 10 feet or 30,000 feet? What are your, what are your skills and how could those transfer? And that, that has been a kind of a, a wonderful tool for me, um, that I still use. I'm still jotting down what I, what I'm excited about, what I care about, who do I wanna talk to, because that's kind of a compulsion, I guess at this point.

It's a very long Google Doc. Oh,

Silvia: that's awesome. And are there things that pop up repeatedly, like each time and then after a certain amount of time you're like, maybe I should really pursue this because it keeps

Iben: popping up every time? Yeah, I mean I think that, I think that's what my dad, you know, that's why [00:27:00] he made the recommendation, um, is cuz that starts to happen.

And definitely before I've made some big changes, I've seen trends in that, in that document. I think the things that have, that have um, started to become real red threads in my career of things that I know are important is that. This, this is some kind of funny thing to admit, but like it's important for me to feel useful.

Like I've been in roles sometimes where I, where it was unclear kind of what my goals were or if I was valued by the organization. And I don't mean that in like in terms of salary or title, but I think did I feel like I was contributing in a way? Was important to me and that, and that me, my presence was helping make things better.

And that is, that's really important to me. and it, it makes me kind of, maybe sound like I'm describing myself like a, like a, like I'm a tool, like make me a useful tool. But that is something that I realized through doing that exercise. I've also realized that I'm, I really enjoy being [00:28:00] in organizations in moments of transition.

That like an organization that is starting or pivoting or experiencing or has an ambition to, to, for a lot of growth, that is a, um, that's a happy place for me. Those are really

Silvia: great, insightful ways to look at yourself and what you like to do instead of like tasks that you like to do or results. It's more so like.

Something that you're gonna be doing for every day, you know, maybe for the next few decades perhaps.

Align Your Career Goals To Yourself
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Iben: Yeah, though, I, I wouldn't actually over, over like dismiss the enjoyment of tasks because, you know, I've seen people who, you know, there's that whole idea that people get promoted out of the thing that they do well.

Like you see some people get promoted to be a manager, you know, they used to be. A designer and now they're in a management role. And what they really excelled at was designing. And in that manager role it was, it's primarily people management or process management. And now all of a sudden [00:29:00] the people that they're managing are getting to do the work that they actually really excelled at.

That kind of, that's a kind of a dilemma you see in, um, in creative industries, probably in professional services in general, but so I think to have an awareness about what tasks you enjoy, like there's a woman on our team, You know, I talked about like, do you get great satisfaction from getting a red line document and like fixing everything?

There's a, there's a woman on our team who's a graphic designer who told me once, she's like, I really, really feel good when I'm, when I'm fixing things. She's like, you know, is it the thing that I wanna do a hundred percent of my time? No. But she's like, I get a lot of satisfaction out of that. And like for her to have the, the awareness that that.

That she needs that, and that that makes her feel like it was a, a job, a good day on the job, or a good week on the job. Like that's, that's really important.

Silvia: Yeah, that's actually a great question that managers and even people can bring to their managers about like sharing that information of what fills their [00:30:00] cup when they do it, and also with the caveat that maybe they don't wanna do it every time, but they still enjoy doing it.

Yeah. And even sharing the things they don't like to do, even if you have to do it, just sharing that you, you don't really love doing it is also good information for everyone to have.

Doing Donkey Work
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Iben: Yeah. And how do you, how do you find that balance? My, so my old boss at, at Big Kai, he always said that when we were looking to hire a new person to business development team, he's like, every job has what he called donkey work Like every job has the stuff that isn't fun and.

whether you are an intern or when you are a global leader, like literally every single job has, has, has donkey work. and I think the, there's kind of two questions to ask. Is the other stuff good enough for you that you can kind of deal with the donkey work? I hope so. Cause like every job has it. Uh, and also what's the ratio like if you're remind mean that your job is 90% of things you don't like.

That's a really strong indication that, um, that you're in the wrong [00:31:00] job. I agree

Silvia: with you. When you said that, like, um, you wanna feel useful, I feel like a mid-career architect is probably, possibly, if they're not like moving up in the firm, they're gonna be in a role where so many things are repetitive Especially if things aren't working smoothly.

Like, and the same thing happens every project, that's a very easy source of frustration that you will automatically create. So, I mean, I resonate with that. Like I want to feel like my time is well spent if I'm gonna spend so many hours sitting at this desk.

Iben: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, there's, there's this whole conversation about like, you know, the, the gen the Next Generation is all about finding meaning in their work, which I think is, I think that is a trend.

but it's not like those of us who are older didn't want meaning in our work, but I think there's meaning, and then there's also satisfaction and they're related to one another, but I think they're also, they support one another, but they're not identical. one can, one can find a lot of, hopefully find satisfaction [00:32:00] in your work and then that would give that work.

Meaning, I don't think that it, this maybe a stereotype is like, oh, everyone who is in their twenties just wants to go and like, work in a nonprofit. It's like, no, they want, they don't wanna feel like a cog, right? Like they, like what? Like they're contributing in some fashion.

and whether that means they're contributing kind of on a societal level or, you know, just in air quotes here within a company that that matters.

Silvia: And you mentioned that as for business development, everything that brings a firm work, how much of that is actually like internal operations?

Because streamlining that can also make it easier for a firm to get work,

Iben: right? Yes. There's a lot of internal operations that has an impact on kind of success of business development. I mean, or just the success of a business in general. Right? Like I remember hearing a story once about bringing in a new C F O and they were like, you know, we're not, We're not making enough money.

And they're like, well, she's, you know, she's like looking at their work. She's like, well, you're doing, you're doing a lot of work. Like, why aren't you making money? [00:33:00] And she's like, did you send out invoices? And they're like, shoot, that was the thing we forgot. You know, like, you know, very, uh, basic things like if you, if you, it's one thing to do the work, you also need to remember to invoice for it.

So yeah, there's a lot of internal operations that, That if they're not done right, we'll undo all of the other good work that you did. I mean, I think about with business development, there's a ton of external stuff, right? There's all those relationships with clients. There's that kind of cultivating that network that, that is ex external.

But there's also a lot of internal, and in part because, uh, you know, the primary business development model within architecture and within, within professional services in general is, The doer seller model, which in other professions, they call it the seller doer model cuz you have to sell before you can do, but I, I joke that architects are so freaked out by the sales word that you have to hide it behind the doer.

It's doer, seller So you have to enable a lot of people, or at least a couple, depend the size of your company to be out [00:34:00] there selling, to get the work that everyone else will be doing. Um, so there, that's a, there's a lot of internal. Organization and infrastructure building that goes along. Uh, along with that,

Silvia: I'm imagining that all of your previous companies and current are open to change because, you know, knowing what you can do, and

Iben: I, I'm assuming it's yes and no

Silvia: for sure, and I'm assuming it kind of mirrors your own, you know, like Affinity for change.

So is, is that something that you were conscious of? that they would receive your suggestions and like strategies that you would be supported in those

Iben: roles? Yes. I mean, as I've gotten further in my career, in fact that has, that was something that got written in the Google doc of like, I didn't, I didn't wanna work for an organization where I was doing was such a foreign concept that it would be a constant uphill battle.

it's still not easy. I mean, business development is something that I think is not nearly understood [00:35:00] or you have to understand before you can embrace. So it's not nearly understood enough in, in, the a and e world, and therefore it's not nearly embraced enough. it's perplexing because I, you know, I, whenever, when I talk to.

My colleagues at som or when I'm talking to anyone about business development, I really think about it. It's about agency. It's about having, it's about designing the firm that you want and getting the work that you want to do. So I'm always a little bit confused when people think it's like some kind of dirty work.

Cause I'm like, it has all of the influence on what you're gonna get to design. I joke, I've been joking recently that like, um, that at some point in your life, in your, in one's young life, Your parents or someone in your life sat you down and explained to you where, like, where babies come from, but I don't think there's enough conversations in amongst architects about where projects come from and like it shouldn't be such a hard conversation.

And, and it should certainly happen long before someone is at like a mid-career architect. [00:36:00] And yet, and yet, and yet, you know, I, I, I am, I meet a lot of people who, especially when they're starting about thinking about to go off on their own, And they don't have a clue about how projects come into the firm where they work now, and have just kind of like humped the brakes, my friend.

Like, I know you wanna go off and do something, but you don't wanna go off not knowing at least something about this part of running a practice because it will be very painful for you. that's, again, I think is, I know that kind of, you know, the out of, out of architecture. Spirit is about supporting people who are, who are going to try something new, who are thinking about it.

Architecture also people to stay and change the system
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Iben: I joke to Jake, to Jake and Aaron, like part of me is interested in keeping some of those people in architecture and making sure that they can be part of the change that we need in this, in this profession. Um, but I think there is something to be said about if you're starting to get that itch and you wanna leave, what are the skills that I can get where I am now that will make that transition?

Easier, whether that's a tra [00:37:00] or transition into having my own thing or a transition into like what you've done and, and, and others in out of architecture have done a transition into a different industry. You know, to just hop blindly, to jump blindly. Some people can do it. Most of us either don't have a stomach for it, or the penalty of doing that blindly is so high that it's just, I just wouldn't recommend it.

Silvia: Yeah, absolutely. And actually tangents is a very good podcast name because I find that most of us. There's a, it's a wide spectrum of h where we land in architecture. And actually I like that you started this very confidently saying, I'm not an architect, or like, I ha I haven't been an architect. Because actually I'm trying to hold onto it cuz it was such a big part of my identity, but, There's so many roles that support the, the industry that, and I, I really like where you are right now because you have so much influence on how that can be, especially going back to your first job where you said like the places that you [00:38:00] want to work in.

So someone that. Wants to create a good work environment and has the ability to impact the industry. Like I totally agree with you that people who understand that intimately should be in those roles where they understand what the impact of their actions.

Iben: Yeah. I mean, I would never, I would never like, um, fault someone, there's so much, uh, for leaving architecture.

There's so much guilt and there's so much like. Judginess when people leave a profession like architecture. And I think that that's a real, that's, and it's revealing kind of some of the, the cha some of the real deep-seated challenges that you see in the profession. So I, I'm never gonna say don't go because every single person has to make the career decisions that are right for them.

Um, but I do remember at like at Big in particular, there were always, There was like a certain kind of person who came into BIG, who was very entrepreneurial and who was in and maybe, uh, and then the kind of the next place they would go after working at BIG was they would go and either do a MBA or go [00:39:00] work for a real estate developer.

And I mean, I was always like, cool, what? Tell me more about this career. But, you know, there's, there's always a little bit of judgment when people do that, you know, the like, Quote unquote, capital A architects will be like, how? You know why you go to the, you know, they talk about going to the dark side or something.

I'm like, that's nonsense. It's nonsense. Like, first of all, they're going to another side, right? It's not a dark side. They're going to another side of the build environment. But I do remember thinking like it was a shame that there weren't more career paths for people who were more business minded. To bring those gifts and keep those gifts within the practice of architecture.

I think we are seeing that we are seeing kind of changes in the way that people are setting up their practices and running their practices, but not enough and probably not fast enough. So I would never, I would never tell those people stop leaving because they're leaving for very good reasons. But it, it, it always seemed like the, the professional was losing something because it was losing a type of person who [00:40:00] had a lot of gifts to give.

Um, but wasn't seen a place for those gifts to land. Yeah. Maybe

Silvia: with this podcast we can glorify those people that have gathered all these skills from being tangential or in architecture. Like just, you don't have to build, like, you don't have to create a drawing, like a drawing set. Uh, like a hundred page documents to call yourself an architect.

Like, yeah. The, there's so many, there's so many people involved. There's an infinite number of people involved. But yeah, so maybe we can, uh, celebrate these people, which is what we try to do with this podcast. But maybe it'll be like, oh, cool, you were an architect. What are you up to now? That's like, that's

Iben: amazing.

Yeah. How do you take those skills and and translate it to something else? Yeah. It's, it's, I think it's, so I. Interesting. I'm like, I'm compulsively asking people when I meet people and I find out they're an architect at one point I'm like, okay, tell me. Tell me what else you did. I do like a non podcast version of this podcast, which is just like interrogate people.

I know. I love it. That's lots of questions. [00:41:00]

Silvia: Keep spreading it. Yeah. I feel this from my own experiences that like for an opportunity to come your way, you really have to kind of like capitalize on that. You have to be ready, you have to. Jump on it, even though it's very new, maybe a little scary. And I think that's exactly where you want to be.

Like it's very exciting and I'm, I have no idea what I'm doing to some extent. Yeah. But I'm gonna do it anyway. Like, that's exciting. Like, for you, what is like being ready for an opportunity, like for in, for you,

Iben: yourself? I mean, it's funny, I've had, I've had opportunity, I've had. Times when I was making a decision between two roles.

And I won't put a timeframe on it and I won't, I won't say what the exact roles were. Cause I, I don't want, I have a lot of respect for the, for the organization was that I didn't go with. But there was a point in my career where I had two job offers and one was a, a role that was quite similar to the role that it had before.

And the other was a different kind of role [00:42:00] and. I was agonizing over it. and ultimately I choose, chose surprise, surprise, the one that was different because for me, I have re I know that if I feel like I can do the job with my eyes closed, I'm not going to be there very long. Like, I'm not going to feel stimulated.

I feel I need to feel stimulated by doing things that are new and a little harder for me. Kind of like, okay, I, I know how to do those things. What's the next muscle that I'd like to exercise? So for me, that was like a re that's a really clear indicator when I'm making a decision about a role is that I know I'm not gonna be satisfied if, if it's something that I've done before.

Which is a good thing to know about yourself, like if you're not that way, if you were very uncomfortable. In a role where you haven't, where you don't think you can just nail everything, then you need to know that about yourself and, and then make decisions accordingly. But I, [00:43:00] I know I'm not that

Silvia: person.

During my career, I found out that architects will never know everything that they're doing. There's always like this learning curve on each project of something. You just don't have to know, and then you have to master it, and you also won't know everything there is about what you do because we're generous.

I did not realize that until like halfway through like my career journey. Yeah. And I was like, and I, that was never comfortable with me. It always like gave me such anxiety that like I was ex, I felt I was expected to know things but didn't realize that, and I wish I'd known that earlier. I don't think it would've changed anything, but it would've just helped my like mindset anxiety throughout

Iben: the years.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean I think that's why like I, the projects that I work on are like a shorter time horizon. Usually than architecture project. I mean, probably like, the longest I've worked on a specific lead for a specific opportunity was probably a year and that, you know, those are kind of rare or I'd love that.

I'd love if all of us were doing kind of business development with a year, a [00:44:00] year in advance, but, um, not always the case. But it was always funny when I would talk to the architects and they're like, they're on the same project for, you know, five to 10 years depending on think we're complex, we're slow.

What a project that they're working on. And I like, I can't relate to that. But then I, when I think about it, every big project has its mini projects. And like you said, every, you know, no building's gonna be the same. You're gonna learn, maybe it's a different typology, maybe you've always done school buildings and this is a residential building or.

You've always worked in New York and this one's in St. Louis, you know, like it, there's always gonna be something new. so I guess I should, I should add a little asterisk to my previous statement, which was, no job will always be a hundred percent the same. and to yeah, embrace that and to another year's always gonna be learning is good, a good attitude to have.

Silvia: And finally, uh, how would you define success?

Iben: Again, I'm putting the brackets around that. We're talking thinking about career success here. There's whole other [00:45:00] sets of, of success. For me, career success is about, for me, feeling useful and engaged and stimulated and working towards a collective goal. I've, I've worked as a consultant on my own.

Which was really fun. There's a lot of benefits to that, but I also really like being part of an organization. Um, so there's a real social aspect, uh, to what I do, not only cuz I'm doing business development and I like being out with people, but I like working alongside, smart, talented people. And I think some of the most exciting and satisfying moments for me in my career have been.

Getting to bring in or be part of the team that's bringing in opportunities for designers to do their best work. Uh, and then kind of ha handing that project over and then coming back and seeing like, this is what they, this is what they took that opportunity and turned it into. This is the physical version of it.

And that's, that's deeply satisfying. That's how I think about success.

Silvia: Yeah. Absolutely. [00:46:00] That sounds amazing actually. Like you're constantly making architects happy. Yes. Like a new project to work on.

Iben: Yes. But also, you know, you have to have the thick skin in business development because you don't win everything.

So you have to be, you have to be focused, uh, and also optimistic that every time you lose it, okay, we're gonna win the next one, we have another opportunity. So it's, uh, it's a funny combination of realism and optimism in business development.

Silvia: I hope you enjoyed my conversation with even as much as I did. Now let's hear from Nora from the

Highlight - Noura Alhariri
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Noura: My name is Nora Riri. I am a bit of a Jill of all trades designer I've been with out of architecture for about two and a half years where I manage digital design and design strategy. And then beyond that, I also do web design, visual design. I, in my free time, run a Arabic cooking workshop, food Collective with my friend in Los Angeles.

And, uh, follow my passions in, [00:47:00] in those ways.

Silvia: thank you for all the work you do with out of architecture. it's amazing, that everything that gets done and like the amount of ways that it exists in especially too,

Noura: yeah. There's a big team, Jasmine and Christie and Jake all also do a lot of work on a lot of other

platforms.

Silvia: And then since you're such a big core part of out of architecture, can you give us a glimpse into like what you're excited about for the future or what's ahead?

Noura: I'm really excited about the energy that the new advisors bring in. So I think their perspectives, their lived experience, their new ways of solving problems, the synergy that they all have together that.

I think is what's really taking out of architecture to the next level, and I think it's what's going to really help it resonate with a lot more people. So the more representation and variety of experiences and diversity that we're able to bring to, the out of architecture audience and community, the better because we're able to reflect more their experiences.