Bringing Studio Pedagogy into K-12 Education With NuVu's Saba Ghole
===

Saba: [00:00:00]

Intro
---

Saba: So it's not the homework assignment that you turned in and got graded on. It's not the final exam or test that you're taking or the standardized test that's really evaluating your understanding the material. It's actually kind of that incremental, journey that you're taking that ultimately culminates in a final project.

Silvia: Welcome to Tangents by Out of Architecture.

Out of Architecture is a career consulting firm helping designers apply their incredible talents in untraditional ways. We're highlighting some of our favorite stories from the amazing people we've met along the way. We will hear how they created a unique career path for themselves from the wide variety of skills and talents they developed in and out of architecture.

Our guest today is Saba Ghole, co-founder and chief creative officer at NuVu.

Hear Saba share her experiences on how she brings the studio model of learning that we are familiar with [00:01:00] from our architectural studies and applies it to k through 12 learning.

3 words: Creative, Optimist, ListenerSaba Intro
---

Silvia: Welcome Saba I'm very happy to have you here with us today.

Saba: Yeah, happy to be here Sylvia. Thanks for having me.

Silvia: Yeah. So excited for our conversation.

So, to start, I actually like to ask, you to define yourself in three words

Saba: hmm. This is a good one. Um, Okay. I think the words that come to mind are creative, optimist, and listener. I think those are the, those are the three.

Silvia: Awesome. So what is your background in architecture and what are you working on today?

Saba: Yeah, so my background in architecture started with spending about five years studying architecture at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. I was always, I think, intrigued in architecture since I was, very, very young.

For whatever reason, I used to walk around my house saying I'm gonna become a commercial architect, even before I really understood what [00:02:00] that was. but I really had, I think, a fascination for definitely homes just because there's such a personal space and I realized, you know, through where I was living, both in the US and then in India, that the notions of home and the way space is organized and the ability for people to come in and out, it really impacts, you know, one's existence and, how one grows up eventually to be the person that they are.

So, so I was really always interested in architecture and design and did, my undergraduate studies in architecture at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. And then I went on get my Masters in Urban Design at MIT and between that period of time, there was definitely a shift from the scale of really being fascinated by experiences within a building to really thinking more about, the urban space and our experiences collectively within a much greater space that's not so personal and how [00:03:00] cities. People, cultures are shaped through those experiences within really urban locations.

What are you up to these days? Co-leading NuVu
---

Silvia: And what are you currently working on?

Saba: Yes. So these days, it's been over a decade actually that I've been co-leading an organization called New View or NuVu.

And which really was created to bring more of those design practices and creative thinking into the space of K-12 education. So right now, this is my 12th year with, the organization and and yeah, it's really been a big shift going from like practicing architecture and urban design to now applying a lot of that know-how, that process oriented approach to a much wider, expansive, array of disciplines and really begin, you know, bringing it into the back to the space of learning, which is kind of full circle in a ways for me because you know, our journey is [00:04:00] designers and architects within the space of learning begins oftentimes in that few years of undergraduate, school, and so much of those experiences that I had as an undergraduate student, I, I keep coming back to those moments now, being in the space of education and learning and thinking about what are those experiences that need to be cultivated for young people to really thrive and understand and use a lot of those skills in their day to day lives.

Silvia: I remember you saying that, uh, NuVu takes the studio setting and applies that to K12 education and it exists in many ways through as a school and also as like a learning program or curriculum that you can mm-hmm share with others.

Everyone has a very personal experience of growing up in a studio culture from school and work, but I think it's something that architects only know through experience.

Mm-hmm. . So, yeah.

what does that look like when applied to school and education [00:05:00] for children? What do students currently have and then what does UVU offer on top of that?

Saba: Yeah.

Yeah. So I think there's, there's a lot of interesting, Kind of tangents that we can go on, just, just diving into that question.

Traditional vs a Process Oriented Approach
---

Saba: But I think one, the biggest translation is bringing the actual like process oriented approach. more studio pedagogy into the space of K-12 education.

And as we know, most of traditional schooling is really built on this mindset. You're really, trying to understand the concepts and, dive into specific curriculum and eventually get tested on that curriculum and produce, you know, specific answers that, uh, when tested

and the whole studio pedagogy and model, as we know is really built on this idea of one being more interdisciplinary, but also going [00:06:00] through this process that allows you to uncover knowledge, understanding about the world around you, about connections between pieces of knowledge, and ultimately create a space for developing ideas an iterative process.

The Process Is Key
---

Saba: And. In a ways throughout that process, you're producing a lot of artifacts of learning, which then are that evidence of learning. So it's not the homework assignment that you turned in and got graded on. It's not the final exam or test that you're taking or the standardized test that's really evaluating your understanding of the material. It's actually kind of that incremental, journey that you're taking. That ultimately culminates in a final project. But really the process is really what's key. And as I said, that journey in and of itself becomes your evidence of learning, growth, understanding. So I think that bringing that whole process [00:07:00] into the space of K-12 education a big one and for us, the way that we've done that is we think of kind of the studio in three aspects.

So there's, you know, people always talk about even in, in architectural environment, actual space. So there's the studio space, which for Nuvu was changing the whole way in which students are interacting, sitting where the teacher instructor is located, relative to where the students are. So, which really changes the behavioral aspects of how people are interacting, engaging with one another. So really creating more of a collaborative space that's open, that's visible. You can see other students working on their projects and vice versa. There's a culture of pinning up your work and, sketches and prototypes and which is quite, you know, oftentimes in a, in a traditional K-12 environment, you're not seeing the work ever present.

And so I think one is creating a space that allows for that culture [00:08:00] to be, um, really nurtured with a culture around sharing visibility, showing your process. So I think that was the big shift, was actually bringing some of those practices into, into the space of K12 education for us, like creating vu this a space that would really bring some of those practices in.

2. Pedagogy and 3. Process
---

Saba: And then as I said, the second part is the pedagogy and the process itself, which we do also through the third element, which is the studio curriculum itself. That's really, again, very contrasting it from traditional, coursework. We are really creating the, the kind of very open topic that students are gonna be exploring.

So it's not saying over the course of a semester, these are all the pieces and concepts that you're gonna, you're gonna learn, but rather we're just creating that initial large question that you're gonna be addressing, and really framing that studio topic. That's also a big [00:09:00] shift from traditional courses and traditional subjects where, you know, there's usually in a, in a math class, there's a very clear lineage around, you know, you're gonna be learning these concepts and principles from algebra, geometry, calculus and it's gonna be going in this order, in this progression. Whereas the studio itself has a very nonlinear flow to it. And through that process, again, students are, are diving into their ideas related to specific projects that address that larger question or that topic or that problem that's being investigated.

So I'd say kind of those are three direct transfers from the architecture studio environment, that we'll often find in an undergraduate or graduate setting and taking some of those pieces and bringing them into the K-12 space.

Silvia: That sounds so beautiful. I know from my own personal experience that one of the things I love about being an [00:10:00] architect is seeing the culmination of what was once only an idea. And then you can see it being iterated upon and each step adds more layer and context. And then you realize at the end you can see the work, the process through all of that. And I, that's very rewarding and also very like proud moment to. That be something that you created?

Mm-hmm. . And did you have a similar experience and that's kind of where you were like, I wanna share this with more people. I wanna influence education with this.

Saba: Yeah, I mean it's, it was interesting because you know, when you're oftentimes in architecture school, A lot of these things aren't explained. No one's your professors been sharing, like, this is the process that we're going through, or, you know, your portfolio is large, big, open, tables and, you know, you're just pinning up.

There's critique happening, there's reviews again, there's a culture of constantly [00:11:00] sharing ideas, getting feedback. and then for synthesizing all of that and, creating something of your own as you're, as you're moving through that process. And so I think when we started New View there was we were having like more of those conversations and over time also as New View has evolved, all the more, I think this idea of how can we be more explicit.

What we're doing, what is the process? Or even why is this space organized in this way? what is, you know, how do we think about studio curriculum? and some of this has been also because our work has evolved to also work with teachers. Now, where. We have to be even more explicit, didactic about, you know, what is it that we're doing and why are we doing it? How does this differ from traditional curriculum or where is there moments of overlap?

So I think through that process, it's allowed me to also go back in time and, understand what the [00:12:00] journey that I went through, even, even better, uh, and reflect upon it and understand those struggles, those moments of struggle and a and, and realize why I felt so proud in certain moments and where I felt I suddenly maybe blossomed as a designer at, you know, what period in my five years. And why was that? and was that similar to my peers, they had a very separate, unique journey themselves. Um, have moments of growth and transformation that are happening and feel, again, that sense that the work that they're doing is connected to a deeper purpose and you know, allows them to grow and understand who they are.

So yeah, so I think a lot of that has happened through through having, a school and doing work where we are every day, kind of diving into. What is the studio process? Um, what does this look like when teachers are doing this work? Not designers, not trained designers. Um, what is experience like for students? [00:13:00] What. Is it like for a student who's done like 20 studios? so I find it really an interesting, interesting place to be because it's every day I kind of find. Thinking both back in time and also to this moment and where we can be in the future.

Silvia: I would love to hear more your experiences how you had to create a business like this, take this idea and turn it into a business model with partners and get teachers and students on board. So there's like this whole behind the scenes story.

Thinking about the future or alternative Pedagogy
---

Saba: Yeah. Even for me when we started New View, I don't think I was thinking about the, interestingly enough, not the business side of it, but I think it is over the years.

It's definitely one of the pieces that, I've been most involved in trying to understand what is, again, what is the future of the work that we're doing? Can we sustain this school that's based on this alternative pedagogy and [00:14:00] approach? How does it, how can it be a viable model and still connect with larger systems? higher ed?

There is, there is an environment that students ultimately do have to take standardized tests to get into colleges and universities. and then thinking about kind of scalability and access, which ultimately gets down into questions of how can the model, sustain itself and, what are the modes of, that growth and ultimately greater impact.

So I think those questions for me have been really interesting.

there isn't a roadmap that's, that's there, uh, that we can look to and say, oh, there's, there's a similar organization or company that's done it and, um, this is the model that they've taken. and I see sort of chapters in that, growth and evolution and understanding and one of the chapters having NuVu as this innovation center that started in 2010 and then slowly more [00:15:00] organically over time. There were challenges within, I'd say the business model because we didn't have enough kind of partner schools to feed into our innovation center. and it was a very slow growth there. And interestingly enough, over time, We started to get more students who would come and they didn't wanna leave New View, and therefore they, by virtue became some of our long-term students.

And then, because our model was early on when we started that students would come for three months at a time, get immersed in the studio based approach and leave with a portfolio, of these incredible projects that they had worked on and these amazing skills. They would return back to their home schools.

But as we started getting more full-time students, then the questions really began, okay, if, if this is gonna be their whole comprehensive educational experience, are we doing all that we need to do to prepare these students to therefore take the next step in their life? And if it's going on to [00:16:00] college, if it's starting their own business or working for an organization, um, we need to make sure that we are appropriately resourcing, staffing, scaffolding, and supporting the students to do that. So I think when that started happening, that slow evolution, at some point we realized that, that was actually the direction that we wanted to go. Not so much from a business standpoint, but more from the idea that just creating a whole school that's really based on this philosophy and we can. Really create a longstanding culture, and not one that's always shifting every three months as we get new students and cohorts. So, um, so it was around a, I'd say four or five years ago that we started really making, a concerted effort to, to really shift our thinking and shift it more towards a full school model.

Scaling NuVu as it grows
---

Saba: and. Ultimately, I think through that process we also started thinking about, you know, what is the future of NuVu? What is again that those questions of access and scalability kept coming up. [00:17:00] And that's also a moment in time when we launched our Nuvu X initiative to really answer that question and and also figure out what the model of scaling this type of process and model looks like, in a K-12 environment to other schools. Districts locations outside of even the United States. so I think that there's been a lot of these chapters to the journey, which are, which really have been, as I said, really intriguing and interesting and, that ultimately relate to, you know, what, what is the future of, of New View and how can we strengthen its.

Silvia: The way you describe the process through kind of reacting to different things that you were testing out. It sounds very similar to how we would approach a project in school or starting a new project in an office cuz we don't. Really just copy and paste at all. There's always these specific questions that have to bring the context to your project and then even if it is the same [00:18:00] project, you know, we always say different site, but then there's different relationships that form and you always have to kind of check, does everything work together every step of the design phase. it's very nice to hear how this kind of way of working is just happening. Like you're taking experiences from it and just turning it right around and applying it back again.

Saba: Yeah, I, I mean there's definitely a lot of those, transferable skills and ways of thinking that naturally within a studio environment you start to think that way and you are very agile and responsive and, trying to understand what are the contextual, needs that arise from a particular scenario or site or location.

And I think a lot of that is, part of, you know, the, the process that we've had with growing, shifting, changing New View over the years. And, and we're also, I think naturally because there's a lot of architects and designers that are part of our team, there.[00:19:00] An agility where we will test something out.

And even within the, the early days of the school, we would have this really intense cycle where, Studios would last two weeks at a time because students would be doing, part of a studio from 9:00 AM to 3:00 PM every day, Monday through Friday. So it's pretty intensive. If you can imagine like our studio project, which usually is this semester, and then you squash it down into a two week period and then when it's done, you're moving on to a completely new studio topic.

So it was really exciting. And and within that there was a lot of experimentation as far. Studio topics and how we're framing, uh, some of the themes and challenges. and as you would imagine, some of those studios were not very successful. Um, but we would be open to trying something and, and, and seeing if the students respond well or, maybe we didn't have the right composition of like [00:20:00] people involved or.

The ability for students to actually prototype and test ideas.

so for instance, we, I know one trimester, we did a complete, like food themed, trimester and all. I think we had about 12 different studios that were based around. You know, food, but impacting all different types of disciplines. so looking at, like creating music from, from food , to looking at molecular gastronomy and reinventing healthy breakfast items for young people, to creating documentaries. Food access.

So, you know, again, students every two weeks are doing something different. and, you know, as, as I said, there would, there would be studios that were just incredibly powerful and other studios where we felt, well, things didn't quite turn out, the projects weren't that great. Students didn't, weren't really motivated or [00:21:00] interested in that particular topic or theme.

but that sort of attitude of, of learning from, you know, something that didn't go well or really trying to understand why a studio really went well.

I think it's just, as I said, just part of the DNA of designers and, And that iterative kind of spirit that you always wanted the next time around. Try something, try something better than you tried before. And and so I think that permeates in, in every little facet of, of the organization and the work that we do.

Use Design in a completely different context
---

Silvia: Are there any takeaways from that that, designers or those that are in more traditional studios in, in the architectural workforce that can kind of be inspired by? Cuz I feel like, you know, if you do project after project, it gets really old really fast. Mm-hmm. the long hours and things, but there's. Like some link to an what you really appreciated about architecture in the first place.

Saba: [00:22:00] Yeah, and sometimes it's, healthy and helpful to get out of architectural design or even if you're in industrial design, and just be able to use that way of thinking and use design in a completely different context. So I remember when I was, had just finished my urban design degree at mit and. I kind of, I, I just, I was actually looking for interesting work and somehow it just happened that it landed on my plate, that there was this opportunity to work, with this organization that was more in the space of, information design.

and they were specifically working with some big telecom companies to redesign, Some of the apps, and cell phone experience on, various smartphones. And it was just so refreshing to just not be working in or thinking about architecture. but to be able to use a [00:23:00] lot of those principles in a completely different medium.

And, I found just breaking out of that suddenly I felt like rejuvenated and. Yeah, because it can get very monotonous, and repetitive. So to be able to have those moments where you can just, again, you'd be utilizing your skillset and in a completely different way and with materials and mediums and tools and and also be working with other collaborators that are coming from other fields and. I think that's really allows for the, like that expansion and rejuvenation, just, just to happen more naturally.

And anytime that I've, I've kind of hit those walls. I've tried to like shift gears and, like start thinking about like, yeah, an art installation that, or sometimes it's, it's a, it's a very small, short project, that's more [00:24:00] thinking about writing and poetry and, and so again, just a different set of medium and a different set of tools.

Just, just to refresh, refresh the self .

Silvia: Yeah, you're absolutely correct. If I think about all the different conversations I've had through Out of Architecture, it's all these architects so highly skilled in so many ways. They are so used to wearing many different hats and doing so much. But I feel like sometimes our jobs may force us to do the, something very specific when we have all these skills and abilities.

Mm-hmm. So yeah, just finding those outlets that allow us to kind of like. Reco, contextualize things. Try new things, learn new things. Because I think we're really good at applying ourselves and our skills and kind of this like creative introspective thought process to things that we just need like a different medium, I guess.

Trying New Outlets and Projects
---

Saba: Yeah. And sometimes that, and this is what I learned also over the years at At New View, was I think [00:25:00] choice is also really tricky space. So what was really interesting at some point we realized even through New View, was we were giving students the choice, like you can select between these studios that we're offering these three studios.

and oftentimes you're obviously inclined to something that you're interested in already or you've had some experience or exposure with. But what was really fascinating was when there was a few trimesters where we said, you know, We're not gonna go with the choice model. We're actually going to, ensure that just students have a really diverse set of experiences.

And it could mean that even if a student is working on a studio where they're, it's kind of a visualizing information, infographics type of studio, and they, and they kind of hate that work, they're gonna have that experience. And it sort of, it really pushed. The students to again, apply [00:26:00] themselves in these situations.

And, and on a contrary, what we found was that students suddenly realized, oh, well this is actually something that I'm actually interested in. I didn't realize I was interested in this. And, again, there's a commonality and maybe the process that I can use between a filmmaking studio to, a product design based studio to something else. And, and that I think that I really saw the most growth happening within students as they were exposing themselves, to these new studio experiences and, and realizing things that, that they didn't even realize about themselves through that process.

And, and that, again, going back to that example of coming out of grad school, I, I wouldn't have chosen that work experience. There's no way. It just happened to be that there was this opportunity and I said yes without knowing much about it. And as I said, it just allowed me to suddenly realize coming out of grad school that there I did have this, process or way of approaching things that [00:27:00] could be applied in such a wide, wide arena of disciplines.

And, I felt valuable in a, space that I thought that I would be completely a fish out of water.

Silvia: You said that, you work with a lot of architects. Is there something you saw of the capabilities of what architects can bring to the table?

Saba: Yeah. At New View it's, I would say maybe it's broader in designers as a whole, but we do also have a lot of. Ex former architects who worked for, maybe worked for some time or even coming outta grad school. And they also were just looking for a different experience to be had and not going straight into the the architecture field or working for an office. and so many of them were, came maybe just to have a short experience and.

Suddenly that they had a lot to offer and and I think naturally, We don't just have architects, we have a pretty diverse team that comes from all different types of backgrounds. So I think it is, there is this [00:28:00] interesting collaborative environment when we do have architects also coupling with engineers, with filmmakers, with, psychologists and others who are kind of working together.

and there's a lot of architects and designers because that process is so fundamental to the, the school and having that knowledge and experience definitely is a big asset. in, in being able to share model, even simple things like what is, what is a good critique, , what makes, you know, a piece of feedback, from someone more effective. Then another piece of feedback, how to give feedback. And these are the kind of the subtleties that are learnt through those many, many studio experiences and being in an environment that really is, you know, focused on, kind of that process of critique and feedback.

Describe an architect in your own words
---

Silvia: How would you describe an architect in your own words?

Saba: Hmm.

I would say kind of an open, an agile, open-minded. Problem solving, [00:29:00] minded individual .

Silvia: Yeah. Is that like all the hats that you've seen and had to wear throughout your career journey?

Saba: I was actually thinking, not so much about myself, but just a lot of my colleagues That I've come across over the years or have worked with in what sort of differentiates, you know, the colleagues that, that comes from over an architecture background, from any other background.

And almost always we can be in, a conversation in a team meeting and, you know, immediately we can sort of think high level and. At the same time get into the weeds of trying to figure out how are we gonna take this forward. And I think that, again, that ability to think really wide, but then also get to the point of being able to problem solve and see like what we need to do next.

That is, that is an incredible ability.

and you know, especially when you're in an environment that really, is. Open to that. And that's, [00:30:00] that's, I think that's a bit of the spirit of innovation that comes in many organizations and, you know, definitely an entrepreneurship. So that, for me, that's, that's a piece of the culture of like how New View has evolved over the last number of years.

And I think that's also been enabled by the people around me that, that think that.

Silvia: I love that you highlighted the big picture, but also the fine details that go into it. Cuz I feel like that's constantly going through our minds, right? Like, why are we doing what we're doing? But also how do we actually mm-hmm. do it? What are our next steps to so we can actually create something.

Saba: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And and some people I know, And, and I don't wanna ever put people in a box or say, oh, this is, this is because of this background. But you know, I think that's why it's also great to have. A mixed team.

but sometimes they'll find individuals on a team where they're, all about like, let's figure out what needs to get done. And then some, some folks on the team are just like, let's just sit up high and, just [00:31:00] envision what we can be doing. So again, that, being able to merge those two at different stages, and then have that ability to do that within one person is, as I said, it, it's a great set of skills to have and creates a really agile team environment because they can operate on both levels and, and therefore work with team members that are also coming and thinking about things from a different perspective and come with, differing abilities.

Spirit of an Optimist
---

Silvia: And I'd like to touch back on how you described yourself as an optimist. You said a creative optimist and listener, but I love hearing the optimist part of that. And can you, um, elaborate what that means to you?

Saba: Yeah, I mean, I think over the years, and this is something to be fair, it's been challenged, not so much. Because of the spirit of it. Just, you know, the last few years have obviously been very challenging across the board. Everyone has various stories of why, and, and, but I think the optimism is, [00:32:00] especially because in the, area that I work in, there's a lot of young people involved and there's a spirit of coming up with creative ideas, and unbounded at times.

And I think that that spirit is really important to always hold onto. which as we get older, it, we just somehow get removed from that spirit. And so it, for me, it's nice just to be able to be really close to it and, find that within my own self and others around me. and I think there, there's also, I think that in terms of that optimism, it's, you know, when you're, when things are shifting and changing as they have been the last few years, and also when you're running a business, there's, you know, there's a lot of self doubt and there's also.

you know, just stress and strain that comes from, again, is the business gonna be sustainable? ? Are we gonna be able to, ensure that the team can continue to grow and thrive in their careers? And, and I think that's [00:33:00] where you have to be also an optimist to believe that, you know, there's gonna be a way forward.

You're gonna figure it out despite t crazy changes that might happen from day to day as they were within the pandemic with, um, schools going virtual to, um, hybrid to varying degrees of onsite to, people getting sick at varying points in time. How do you, can I just support that really hyperdynamic environment?

And as I said, it was stressful and challenging all around. So again, I think having that, that sort of spirit is really key to being able to thrive. Maybe it's sort of like a, I don't wanna say it's a coping mechanism, but I, I think you gotta, you have to really, really believe that otherwise it's very difficult to think beyond, you know, what's happening now.

Silvia: Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't imagine trying to create, so, Every day without also [00:34:00] being an optimist.

Saba: Yes. .

Silvia: and then lastly, uh, what are you looking forward to in the future or like near future what do you have, coming up for yourself?

Saba: Yeah, I mean, I think there's, it's sort of an exciting point in time, at least forNuVu because it's.

On the one hand, it feels like we've been doing this work for a long time. But on the other hand, there's been, kind of these new initiatives and new products that we've been, testing and trying out. So I think coming up, the pieces that I'm really excited about is we've kind of shifted a bit of the, an aspect of our vision around the future the organization and company and those moments of transition, you're always making a pretty bold shift. And so I'm really excited about this upcoming, you know, 2023 because we're really going to be moving kind of full steam ahead on one of those ideas, which are sort of in [00:35:00] the stages being formed in shaped. So it just feels like a long journey, coming to this point in time.

Silvia: That's awesome. thank you so much for sharing everything. I love finding out more about NuVu cuz it sounds like you're doing amazing work out there for the children and just in general.

Saba: Thank you, Sylvia. Where, well, I hope there's other, designers, architects, and just people, in general who just, know, feel like they. Take some kind of bold steps in their lives and, um, realize that every experience that they've had is going to benefit them in whatever they end up doing.

Silvia: Absolutely. Thank you so much. What a beautiful sentence to end on.

Outro
---

Erin: Hey everyone. It's Erin from out of Architecture. If you find these stories inspiring and are looking for guidance, clarity, or just need someone to talk to about where you are in your career, please know that we offer 30 minute consultations to talk about what may be next for you. If you're interested, head to out of architecture.com/scheduling to book some time with [00:36:00] us.

Jake: Hey everyone. It's Jake from Out of Architecture. We love hearing your stories, but we know there's more out there that we've still yet to experience. If you or someone you know would be a good fit for the podcast and has a story about taking their architecture skills beyond the bounds of traditional practice, we'd love to hear it.

Send us an email at tangents@outofarchitecture.com.

Silvia: Thanks for listening to our podcast, new episodes every two weeks. See you then