Connecting a Community of Creatives with If Not Now, Then When's Rachael Hymas
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Rachael: [00:00:00]

Intro
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Rachael: I don't think I have officially really applied for a job or a position or anything that I'm doing for a very long time. Genuinely, it's all been kind of through people that I know and connections that I've made and relationships that I know work really well, and I think that you don't have to necessarily worry about what your CV looks like. When I was made redundant, who picked me up? It was the people that I had spoken to and I had a new job without even applying for anything. And I think that's what's really resonated with me hugely was that who got me the job in the first place. It wasn't really me. it was somebody who wanted to help me or put my name forward for something.

Silvia: Welcome to Tangents by Out of Architecture.

Out of Architecture is a career consulting firm helping designers apply their incredible talents in untraditional ways. We're highlighting some of our favorite stories from the amazing people we've met along the way. We will hear how they created a unique career path for themselves from the wide variety of [00:01:00] skills and talents they developed in and out of architecture.

Our guest today is Rachael Hymas, founder of, If Not Now, Then When, a platform providing resources and support for creative individuals and global brands. Rachel also works with amazing creatives as partnerships manager at London Design Festival. Hear Rachael share her experiences, building meaningful relationships with the people she's met along the way and how that has impacted her life and career.

3 words: Determined & Open Minded
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Silvia: Thank you so much for joining us today, Rachael.

Rachael: Thanks ever so much for inviting me. To be honest, it's a real pleasure. So I'm very excited to talk to you.

Silvia: Me as well. So, um, to begin, can you describe yourself in three words?

Rachael: Um, it's always really difficult to describe yourself and I feel like, I actually had to have a little think about this, but I would say that, I'm quite a determined person. Kind of no matter what's thrown in front of me, I always try to find a way to work with it. So I'd say determined is probably quite a big [00:02:00] one.

And then I know this is not quite right, but I feel like open minded, which I'm gonna put together as three words. Um, I think being open minded to different people that come to you and that you work with. and also just to different ways of thinking has really helped me, in my career. And there's definitely been times where I've thought that I'm right and that actually after speaking with people, you realize that perhaps their experiences, their upbringing, all of these different aspects means that actually you're not completely right. And I think, I like to learn from different people and their experiences. So, Maybe Openminded, I would say hopefully that's a reflection of who I am, because that's who I'd like to be at least.

Working as a Multi-Disciplinary Creative... that gets bored easily
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Silvia: Yeah, that's great. And I'm sure we'll hear how your determined-ness and open mindedness come through in the rest of the conversation. And can you share with us a little about what you're up to these days?

Rachael: Yeah, of course. I feel like it's always very difficult to put it in a little nutshell. But I would describe myself currently as a multidisciplinary [00:03:00] creative, basically because I get bored easily and I like to be involved in lots of different things. And I think that's kind of where I've found myself currently, and it's actually the place that I'm the most comfortable.

Currently, I am the founder of, If Not Now, Then When, which is an entity that two sides.

One is that I support young creatives in understanding their career paths because it's taken me a huge amount of time to actually discover that myself, and I still believe that I'm discovering my next steps and kind of where I'm going to, but I feel a lot more comfortable in myself in the place that I am right now. And the way in which that I do that is through, events, podcasts, and also, uh, university lecturing from time to time.

The other side is kind of where I support businesses as well learning about kind of where they want to be in the future, from sort of business strategy, and also just sort of marketing strategies to really showcase who they truly are. And that's sort of what I do with individuals as well, is like going down to the deep rooted element of who you are, what [00:04:00] you believe in, and what you want to represent and be seen as, and kind of trying to find the right box that you should fit in.

Although that sounds like a lot of things, I've been doing that and I've met a huge amount of people through that. And one of the people that I've met through that, um, was a really great friend called Brie, who, uh, introduced me to the team at London Design Festival. And that's where I've been predominantly spending my time since January at the start of this year and essentially my role there is partnerships where I basically speak to so many incredible creatives from like big brands to small individual, companies and like makers, creatives, and basically kind of talk to them about, becoming part of the festival and really showcasing what it is that they are and what they wanna do and where they wanna be in the future.

And for me, it was almost like a dream role really to sort of get into that position and be working with such an incredible group of creatives. But then equally, I know that my base is also, If Not Now, Then [00:05:00] When and I feel really proud of kind of what I've done with that. And sort of some of the other conversations that we were saying before was that, I just love the fact that you can kind of just be whoever you want to be, and although this is who I am right now and what I'm doing right now, maybe in a month's time it'll be completely different. And I actually kind of like that. And I think beforehand maybe I used to worry about those things, whereas now I think I'm a bit more comfortable in accepting change really, and sort of seeing going with the wind a little bit more. So hopefully that's not an incredibly long-winded answer to your question.

Ridgid Boxes
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Silvia: No, not at all. And I loved hearing this theme throughout all of it about highlighting and showcasing each person for their individualness and really bringing their person out into the world.

Where did this come from? I know you have a background in interior design and architecture. How did you get from there to where you are now? I'm very curious cuz in my previous roles as an architect, I felt the opposite was the case where I was not myself in that role. I was trying to fit into this very rigid box.

Rachael: [00:06:00] Yeah. I think fitting in the rigid, rigid box has kind of been the thing that I've been trying to release myself from a little bit. I think, originally architecture has always been something that I was hugely interested in.

The Link Between Opportunities is People
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Rachael: Funnily enough, the reason why I actually fell into architecture properly was because I went to a house party when I was 18 and, I was talking to someone there who was an architect and or at least training to be. And they mentioned that their company was hiring and basically sponsoring, uh, individuals to get an architecture degree. And for me, that opportunity of working in an office and also having, uh, a sponsored degree was a huge thing. And I took the opportunity and I think fundamentally on reflection, one of the main things that I find about that is that actually the reason why I got that job and the reason why my career went in that direction was through networking. Although it was at a party, it was very much like having a conversation with someone, having an organic, understanding on a certain theme or topic, and it completely changed the direction of my [00:07:00] life. And I think that I've reflected quite a lot on that point of throughout my architectural career, there was a lot of people who really helped me or sat me down or kind of like had a moment where they, and it doesn't have to happen all the time, but I do think having some kind of mentor in whatever shape or form, even if it's a fleeting conversation, can completely change your direction.

So for me, architecture was always kind of like the backbone and I really love it as something that I've studied and something that I've been part of. But I think I realized more and more that for me, sort of the psychology of space and the connection with people was always something that I found really interesting.

And that's actually when I went into interior design. So I studied that, as well after sort of doing my first part of my architecture degree. And I just found so many opportunities really, it was kind of like twofold. One was like that you'd meet people and I found in interior design, there was a lot more kind of events that I found myself going to and I really enjoyed meeting different people within the interior design [00:08:00] sphere, but then I equally found, which is kind of why I began with, If Not Now, Then When, and kind of how it became something was that I realized that the reason why I was being invited to certain things was because I was employed by a certain company, which was incredible, obviously for me. But there was a lot of people who perhaps wanted access to this world that I'd found myself in, which I was so lucky to have found myself in but that they couldn't get into it. And that's where, If Not Now, Then When kind of came from originally was like an events company basically, that would allow people who were graphic designers or actually students or like they really wanted to get into this but they didn't know how and like get, giving them access to these really high profile people, um, who are speaking about how they'd got to where they were. I found it a really nice balance. And that's kind of where it sort of developed from.

And then I guess the more I got to know people, the more opportunities I got. And it sort of, I don't know, it was sort of a mixture of things really. Obviously in [00:09:00] my career everything's not gone perfectly. I've made been made redundant before. You know, there's obviously been challenges that I've hit, but, Somehow you find yourself sort of snaking through and realizing that there's one common theme. And mine was definitely like people and like the mind and kind of how people feel and, the sort of psychology of space or kind of more, uh, like how you feel about yourself and whether the people.

What I found quite interesting was, um, at one of the, events that I did, I spoke to one of the speakers and they said that they felt quite shy about coming. And I, I'd never, I could never even have envisaged that from someone who was so high profile. Whereas actually on reflection it's so interesting because it is definitely how you view yourself.

So, hopefully that kind of answers what you are asking, but, uh, I do truly think that the synergy between all of this was that I love creativity and it's always been something that I've been interested in, but I think people is kind of what's linked it all together a little bit more.

Reflecting on Different Roles, Saying Thank you and Moving On
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Silvia: Yeah, and can you describe your experience with [00:10:00] going from one opportunity to the next, following this path of really liking meeting people and these event spaces, and also sharing resources with a greater amount of people that you also just wanted to connect people.

I find that a lot of people get into architecture because they are following an interest or a passion, but then they discover architecture is actually completely different than what they might have thought or expected the profession to be like. It seemed very clear that you knew what you liked and were gravitating towards and wanted to find more of.

Rachael: There's been times where I've just been. I know that there's something not quite right and I think that, to be honest, more than me knowing exactly what I wanted to do, it's more been the case that like, I think every job that I've had, I've learned a lot from, but there's been a lot of progress to kind of get to a point where I feel more like I'm in the right position that I want to be in.

There's definitely been times where I've been like, oh, I know there's something wrong. And actually definitely started questioning whether or not it was me rather than actually the role. But often it's just [00:11:00] sort of like round peg, square hole type of situation where actually you just don't fit. You've tried and you just.

It's almost like a feeling, and I think you have to kind of go with it. And I think in those instances, you can't get annoyed with the company that you are at. Um, and equally, you can't get annoyed with yourself, because the industry is incredibly small. You have to be very respectful of the companies and the opportunities that you've been given, if the, even if they're not right for you, because there's been so many things that I've learned.

Opportunities or things that I've done that maybe were too stressful or they weren't quite right, or actually for me, being a CAD technician, for example, and sitting in front of a computer all day is not really for me. But that doesn't mean that it's wrong completely. It's just wrong for you. Um, so I'd say it's been more of a case of kind of, Saying thank you for an opportunity and then moving on to a different situation.

And like, like I've mentioned, I've had times where I have been made redundant from roles. I absolutely massively questioned my own capabilities and whether I was good enough and you [00:12:00] know, what I wanted to do next and all of these things. But then equally there's been times where I've chosen to move on and probably felt the same.

Being Thankful for All Opportunities
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Rachael: Um, and I think it's really natural and I think it would be a bit odd if you didn't kind of question your next moves and whether or not you were doing the right thing. Cause I think otherwise it would of a blind, um, view cause there's so many different things you can do.

I think equally one of the things that I've often struggled with that perhaps on reflection, I've realized actually it's more from a place of "Look really" is that, I've had quite a lot of options or opportunities and there's obviously been a lot that I've really worked for, but there has been a lot of open doors to me along the way. and I think that's a mix of like me being quite lucky with different aspects, but then also that I've been in a position where I have been able to go to university and all of those different things, which a lot of people may not have done. But I've often sort of struggled with the amount of options available, which I've sort of been like, "oh God, I dunno what to do. I dunno what to do. "

And I think sometimes you have to be quite thankful for the fact that you do have multiple things [00:13:00] that you could be doing, because a lot of people don't even have one. So I think that's one of the things that I've learned a little bit more is to be a bit more thankful, maybe even of the opportunities that haven't really worked out in the way that maybe I'd hoped that they would in the first place

Actually my relationship with, um, Jake and Erin who have founded, the, the company and the podcast and everything, and I just love the whole concept that architecture is like a backbone. But actually it's the basis for so many things like science and psychology and arts. So many. I don't know. It's really exciting, I think, to have that as a basis and then sort of allow it to move and see kind of where you go next.

Silvia: And when you put it like that, I feel like Out of Architecture sometimes, people have different feelings about it because are we leaving the profession? Are we celebrating the profession, which is actually what we do try to do here.

Yeah. But I think when you put it that like architecture takes into so many things and we have to do so many things to be an architect, but also like the psychology, the art, the technical aspects. There's so many ways to approach it. [00:14:00] So that if you do pursue a role that is slightly not traditional architecture, , we're just continuing all the things that amaze ourselves about this profession and why wouldn't we want to explore that more because it probably aligns better to who we are.

Being Open That You Have Not Failed
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Rachael: Exactly. Yeah. And I think that being open to thinking that you've not failed, I think is another thing. Cuz I think that's one of the things that often, you know, if you've had, for example, for myself, my degree is within architecture. I am not an architect. I don't practice architecture every day. I can work on AutoCAD and I can work on Revit. It's been a while, so probably quite slow. I must say that I went through that transition when I was deciding what my next steps were, because I didn't know that I wanted my own business. I didn't know that I wanted to be doing sort of event curation and all of these different things that you can do that I didn't even know were available to me, really.

But I think I did go through that transition of thinking, God, you know, six years, seven years, or you know, and you think, oh, you know, it's such [00:15:00] a long process. But I think it's always gonna be the skeleton and backbone of what I do. And I know if I want to, if I really, really want to, I can always go back to it. And I think that you've gotta kind of remember that, that it's not that it's gone away. It it's still there and you can press a pause on something test something else and it will make you, especially on your CV and things like, it'll make you quite interesting, I think if you've kind of done various different things.

Connections to People Can Be More Powerful Than Your CV
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Rachael: And I think I've learnt and met so many interesting people and I think that now I don't think I have officially really applied for a job or a position or anything that I'm doing for a very long time. Genuinely, it's all been kind of through people that I know and connections that I've made and relationships that I know work really well, and I think that that's a really exciting thing as well, is that You don't have to necessarily worry about what your CV looks like. I think actually my belief is that when I was made redundant, who picked me up, it was the [00:16:00] people that I had spoken to and I had a new job without even applying for anything. And I think that's what's really resonated with me hugely was that who got me the job in the first place. It wasn't really me. it was somebody who wanted to help me or put my name forward for something.

And I think that's one of the things that I've really learned is, and where I kind of wanna give back a little bit more as well, is like, Actually there's these young creatives who are probably more talented than I am, to be honest with you and what they're doing. And actually if I can introduce them to the right people, then, not that I'm doing it necessarily for this case, but you think they could be huge in five, 10 years or something. And actually like I've been part of that process and I find that quite exciting really.

Reminder to Find Places that Resonate With You
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Silvia: Yeah. I love all of that. It is just a great reminder and the way you said it When you find yourself in a situation that doesn't fit yourself, it kind of feels like you question yourself first, and then it's like, is it me? Is something wrong with me? Like When you feel in those weird situations that, you know, maybe reach out to someone, but it's [00:17:00] not you. Find a situation where you feel alive. Just follow those things. So I wanted remind everybody about that because you know, when things are good, you, you kind of forget what it's like when things were not so good .

Rachael: Um, yeah, it's so, so true. So true.

Focusing on Relationships
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Silvia: Yeah. And actually I completely agree with what you said. After I was laid off from my last job, all my current roles that I'm in now, were all from relationships that I've made while at that job and just through people that I've met. So I love how you say that.

Rachael: Yeah. All is not lost when that kind of thing happens, you know?

Silvia: When you compare it to how it is like to get a job in the architecture field, you have to prove yourself so much that you can build an entire building and that you know everything you need to know in a detail, but at the end of the day, it's still kind of those relationships that push you past the other people.

So I love this focusing on like creating relationships and getting to know people and know more about them than just sitting in front of a computer all day to like churn out [00:18:00] buildings.

Rachael: I think it's really important as well, because even from the business structure of an architectural practice, like for example, if you decided you wanted to find your own, like be a founder of an architectural practice, how are you going to get projects?

The way you get projects is good relationships with people and how you make your business run In a good way for a long term is by having repeat relationships with those individuals. You don't just completely cut them off every time you finish a project. The way in which these huge architectural companies work is by having these repeat relationships and people feeling like there's a good team who've all come in from different entities.

So it works from such big structure to also a very, very small one when you are like within that cog as well. And I think that's one thing within business that I've learned a lot is. Really that everyone has different skills and I think the main thing really is that you've not failed. If it doesn't work, I mean a lot of people wouldn't have even tried, which I think is the other thing as well, which I think people often forget.

Dealing With Imposter Syndrome
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Silvia: Yeah. And um, when we were chatting earlier, you [00:19:00] mentioned, how you deal with imposter syndrome. Would you like to share that with our listeners as well? Cause I think it was great what you said that you're always gonna have to deal with it.

Rachael: I think one of the things that I've probably never even realized about myself is that I definitely question myself far too much. And I think I really think about those things a lot more these days cuz I am massively a perfectionist and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. But I do think that sometimes you start to question things far too much and doubt yourself far too much. And I think having fear is obviously a natural thing.

Listen To Your Gut, Fear is a Good Thing
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Rachael: And I actually think it's a very good thing because listening to your gut and knowing what the right moves are for you and kind of where you wanna place yourself, and having a close connection to that feeling is a very, very good thing because you'll probably end up in the right place. In the end or at least move at the right times.

So I think I've almost reflected a little bit more about the self doubt thing and just thought actually sometimes, you know, if you've got that kind of like self doubt or that just doubting feeling over and over and over again. you [00:20:00] can kind of think about it a little bit more and think, well actually, is this really right for me completely? Because if you reverse out of it, not saying that, if that you shouldn't work hard at things. Cause I definitely think that things never come easy. Anybody should work very hard and obviously there's a process of, anxiety and sort of doubt and, you know, massive celebrations when things complete and you're quite proud of what you've done.

At least you tried, and learning as you go
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Rachael: But I do think that sometimes you have to lean in a little bit more and think. If that sort of underlying feeling is just there constantly, then you kind of think, well actually you don't have to be sort of sitting there, you can actually do something slightly different. So I think I've realized that that feeling is actually more of a positive one than I ever thought it to be.

Whereas you know, when you're nervous about doing a presentation or something, that feeling of like a high afterwards is incredible when, whereas if you didn't have that fear or sort of like challenge beforehand, Then you wouldn't get that level of excitement and feeling that you've achieved something because it would just be completely flat all the time.

So, I must say that[00:21:00] taking a chance, taking a risk is almost quite an exciting process because that's where the fear and the self doubt kind of comes from. And maybe you'll make a terrible choice, but actually at least you kind of tried. And I think that's one of the things that I've learned a little bit more I think, about how to deal with those situations and not actually be, to be worried about like talking to other people about it. Because if you kind of bottle it up as well, it's often very, you realize that actually everyone else is probably thinking the same thing about themselves as well.

Silvia: Yeah, definitely. I, I can relate. And it's, it's really like to have compassion for yourself, right? And then face your, your fears, your struggles, and, you know, in a controllable, manageable way so that you can grow to the next opportunity.

Rachael: Yeah. Well, I also feel like, does anyone really, really know some, like someone who's hugely successful or someone who maybe isn't so much, did they ever know that that was gonna happen to them? Absolutely. Not really. And did they ever know where they were gonna end up or these things? And I think if you actually knew those things, it'd be so boring.[00:22:00]

And I think that's where like I was always striving for the next thing, striving for the next thing. And actually sometimes it's kind of like, oh actually that's could be really cool if I did this, or if I did that or. oh God, I'm really scared about doing that. Maybe I'll actually try a little bit more or kind of thing.

Silvia: Yeah, definitely. And I also really love it when you have those opportunities that you have to kind of reach for, but they're like so exciting that, you know you just have to try because yeah, like it's exactly what you wanna do and then like you work really hard towards it and you get somewhere as a result. Even if it's not that one. Like all that, pushing of yourself really does account to something.

Rachael: Yeah. And then you kind of reflect back and you think, oh my, like, I can't believe it. I can't believe I did that. Or like, even for me, uh, obviously developing a podcast and things and I didn't even know how to plug a microphone in a couple of years ago before I actually started doing it.

And you think now I know how to edit a podcast and I taught myself how to do it and I was so proud, that I'd managed to kind of curate this thing. I mean, I am [00:23:00] literally the least techy person ever, and I think even learning kind of those types of things and having that as a skill that I can kind of pick up and drop whenever I want to is really quite an exciting thing really.

Silvia: That's actually what I love about architecture is that you have an idea and then you iterate through it, and then you bring something out in the end that, you know, you couldn't think of day one, but through the process you've created something. But now everyone does that in different creative ways. Like for example, creating a podcast and I love that you just have to grow and look back and then see where you came from.

Discovering Yourself Through Your Passions
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Rachael: I think so too, and I think. You could find that you really, really love that sort of aspect, or I've really developed over time realizing that I love photography just because it's like a moment in time that's captured and it's actually somebody's memory and actually myself, me and you, for example, could go somewhere.

I could take a photograph and our feeling of that space and that environment could be very, [00:24:00] very different to each other because our memory, maybe you were facing one way and I was facing the other. And I think I've realized, uh, I have a real passion, not necessarily that I'm a good photographer, but for photography as like a medium of presenting yourself and representing yourself.

And I probably didn't really know that, like 10 years ago. Uh, that was something that I found was a real passion and. I may never become a photographer, but maybe I, if I land into that, I could sort of do that for a little bit, or I dunno. Or you could at least kind of bring that into what you're doing now and it could be a way that you can make what you are doing slightly more unique Always different things to kind of strive for. And I think the problem that I have a lot of the time is that I'm always like striving for the next thing or like doing the next thing, whereas I never sit back and kind of reflect on maybe where I'm at, which I probably should do a little bit more to be honest.

Silvia: I love your outlook, the way that you approach life actually. So how do you share this with your, either the creatives or the businesses that you work [00:25:00] for with, If Not Now, Then When?

Rachael: I think it's really like, uh, a mix. I mean, basically I have, for the sort of young creatives, or not even necessarily young, but people who are seeking a change and want to build a bit more confidence in what they're doing.

It's all been about trying to support people in different ways. But I wouldn't say that it was ever like a concrete thing of you should do this to become this because I don't think that would've helped me actually. And I kind of think that actually people should be allowed to do their own thing or follow their own path a little bit more.

So I guess what I'm trying to teach people is like, like go with your gut a little bit.

Like I think if you have a bit of belief in yourself, although every opportunity isn't available to everybody, and I know that much more so now, and I was very lucky to be able to go to university and things. But I think having that self belief and the sort of motivation there can open so many more doors to you.

And I think that's essentially what I'm trying to get out there as a bit of a message really.

Go Out Networking Alone
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Silvia: Have any advice for [00:26:00] people when they're in that position where they just feel very uncomfortable in their skin. Or maybe it's like sometimes it's something you wanna do, but it's just so new that it's just very awkward feeling?

Rachael: I honestly think that my advice really generally is to try and go out networking, because you can't really speak to somebody in the office about how you're feeling, particularly unless it's like a good friend in the office or something. I think you have to allow your thoughts to kind of sit within yourself rather than voicing them where you work. Cause I think that's often not very professional and also a. You never really get, get the answers that you want to kind of help you cause it's always very one-sided.

I think that actually dependent on where you are located, for me, London has been incredible because there's so many things that you can go to where you can meet creatives and things, and I think that's where I've been quite lucky.

But I would always say, try and go to some networking things on your own. I went to like hundreds on my own when I first entered the industry, and it was so embarrassing, so awkward. I was very often standing by the wall because I didn't have anyone to talk to.

[00:27:00] After a while, you start to get to know people. And I think if you go in a group, you'll never be able to discover who you are and who you wanna be. And I think that it'll take one conversation with one person that may completely change your outlook and maybe will end up with an opportunity that would really help you. So I'd say rather than sort of dwelling on things and sitting around and worrying and wondering, I think getting out there and speaking to people in the world as you, but perhaps in a different position to you may actually be really helpful, especially if they're more broad, because you may find that you are an architect, but actually you are really interested in the sort of technical aspects and that, or maybe BIM or like the 3D visualization aspects or you know, things like that. And if you speak to somebody who's doing those things right now, that may help you a lot or it maybe even will help you decide not to do something as well.

Ask Honest Questions To Get To Know Them
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Silvia: Do you have any good questions to approach people or to start a conversation that are not so typical?

Rachael: I often think that like, you know, when you go to a networking event [00:28:00] or something like that, I feel like just talk to people about who they are.

Because I think obviously you ask people kind of where they work or what they do or something like that, but the way that like genuinely, like I, I mean it's probably the same for you, but you spend so much more of your life in the office or in your working environment, it kind of becomes your life to a certain extent and.

Actually, the people that I've connected with deeply for like forever are really great friends of mine. And to be honest with you, I don't really care about what work they're doing. I really care about whether their dog is okay or like, you know, things like that. I think that my advice would be to go and completely be yourself and maybe be ready to actually tell people about what your favorite music artist is, or you know, more depth to kind of like the conversations.

So maybe asking things like that rather than like actually kind of throw people off a little bit. Ask them about that holiday or like something that will, you will connect with them on a completely different level to purely just business.

Silvia: [00:29:00] Yeah, absolutely. like, so be honest. Ask things you would actually want to know about a person.

Rachael: Yeah. Um, that's kind of how I feel about it. Like I think you have to really actually like somebody and what, what they're about rather than specifically kind of obviously the certain instances where maybe you wouldn't ask like a client whilst you're walking around one of their buildings or something where they went on their holidays or maybe you would, to be fair, I probably would actually.

How about yourself? I'd be very interested to know about whether you would, what you would kind of advise, cause I know you've had a very interesting kind of background yourself and like, seems like you're very well connected and very good at talking to people.

Silvia: So I have very mixed feelings because I would not necessarily be the person who's out in a, like a networking event asking people about things.

But what I do really like is actually, like you said, getting to know people.

Actually , I used to be so stressed out in architecture that I didn't care about people's lives. They'd be like, okay, what are the answers? I think when you're young, you just worry and stress so much about [00:30:00] work.

Rachael: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Silvia: And also if you're on deadline, I care about like getting my work done.

So now, like, I actually do like to get to know people that's one of my favorite things about leaving architecture is the amount of people I've gotten to know. I'm like a very open person, but I guess I kind of need a reason to to have a conversation first, and then I'll like share anything and totally be engaged and wanna know about you. So I guess for me, I don't know exactly how you break that ice or establish some kind of common ground.

Be You, Don't Pretend
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Rachael: I think that's the thing. I think you just gotta go be yourself. I think like often you go and you have, you feel like you've gotta pretend that you've been in the industry for 20 years, but actually for me, I'd meet someone who's straight outta university and their knowledge of tech or even just anything, it can be so much deeper than actually mine.

Obviously, as you grow within an industry, you learn a lot of business aspects, but there's a huge amount of things that a lot of people who are very young who are just entering into something have to offer. And I think. Knowing that you are walking into the room as an equal with everybody else in there, even if they are your [00:31:00] boss, or even if they are like different levels,

I think obviously you have to have a huge amount of respect for what people have achieved and what they've done. But that's not to say that you don't have a value as well, and that you can kind of offer something to the table. And maybe one of the other things that I would say that if you are really nervous about kind of going into a networking space, Maybe ask a question that you actually have a great answer for.

So, because the, the likelihood is that if you're starting a conversation based on one thing, like, I dunno, if you ask someone about their holiday and you've not been on holiday for six years, it's not a great place to start because as soon as they kind of ask you back about where you've traveled, you say nothing. Um, which is a bit of a breakdown of conversation. Whereas if you have something interesting on certain topics, which obviously really is where you're probably gonna end up steering towards anyway.

The Human Side of Networking
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Silvia: Yeah. Thank you so much for these tips. I think it really reframes networking in a really human way. So ask questions about things you care about or can offer some kind of value back or some interest back.

And [00:32:00] then it's really about getting to know another person. don't think about it, I'm supposed to be networking, or I need to create an opportunity out of this. It's really like, you know, get to know a person for who they are.

Rachael: I think so too, and I I think going into any kind of networking thing, more thinking about who you can help rather than what you can gain is probably the best thing as well, because you'll probably end up with much richer connections with people when you haven't gone in wanting something.

Silvia: Yeah, that's a great way to put it. And I think like, I, I get that on LinkedIn sometimes, like when people reach out, they're like, how can I help you? Like, who can I connect you to within my network?

Rachael: LinkedIn. LinkedIn is great. Yeah, like during Covid it was gr like it was great. Like, I mean obviously Covid was a, is a horrific time. But I found that there were so many people who are hugely high profile. Who never have time ever. And for the first time they had time and I was getting responses from these people that I could not believe were [00:33:00] even speaking to me.

And you think it's, you have to kind of pick your times and things and you think, actually maybe this person doesn't have time to talk to me right now, but actually maybe if I email them or send them something on LinkedIn, there'll probably be loads of people who never apply cause they're too busy. But that's not to say that someone who you really value a response from is not gonna get back to you at some point.

Success is Complete Creative Freedom
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Silvia: Yeah, absolutely. Lots of good tips here. Tell me, what does success look like to you?

Rachael: Oh, this is like an exciting one because I feel like, success to me is like complete creative freedom and I think that I often was, trying to get myself sort of stuck within like four walls where I felt really comfortable and like I actually realized time after time that that's where I feel kind of a little bit trapped and a little bit where I don't have the ability to kind of flex and move and like see different opportunities and connect with different people.

And I think that having freedom is much more valuable than anything, than like your wage, [00:34:00] than mean, obviously you've gotta have a certain level of funds to be able to live in a certain way, but I do think that for me at least, total freedom is the most valuable thing that you can have, and that, for me is the most successful that you can become if you get to a point where you are really happy and what you are doing and you feel like you can move and be yourself completely. Um, I think that's when you've won really, to be honest. And that's what I would say success is. I think if you ended up in a really high profile role, and you weren't happy and yeah, you're being paid a lot of money for it, but actually what is more valuable, I think that balance and health. Freedom to be able to be yourself and be creative and, connect with the right people or have a conversation or those types of things. Get out there and when you want to, if you don't want to, you don't have to. That type of thing. I think that's where I would say success is, or at least that's what I would be striving for and would see as an absolute win if I could have sort of tranquility and freedom and the ability to kind of move

Silvia: and I love that.

Rachael: How about yourself? I'd be very interesting to know your [00:35:00] response.

Success is Loving What You Do
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Silvia: Um,

Actually it's, I would say it's very similar to what you said. you know, I feel like we chase titles like as an architect, you think you're supposed to, I don't know, become a project manager, work on a project yourself, like lead a project and then there's, it's all work related, right?

But I'm actually really enjoying, my life right now where I get to take ideas, bring them out into life and, you know, have time to appreciate all the things I like in life. I Actually, I will say I'm a little busy. I would like to be like a little more explorative with my creative interest, but I also feel like I can do that for myself. to be empowered enough to want something, have an idea, and then pursue it. I mean, yes, that's amazing.

Rachael: And not as scared to do that as well. I think that's where you've won is if you are not, and you do believe in your gut and your instinct, and I think that if you get to that point, that's a great place to be.

Silvia: Yeah, to trust in yourself, to love what you do and and like to [00:36:00] take the time to enjoy it for yourself too.

Rachael: Taking the time is the difficult one. I think .

Silvia: Oh, of course.

Rachael: I think you're kind of always like running this like race, uh, all the time, which is where I fall down a lot, is that I never, I'm never like even standing still for a minute to kind reflect on what I'm doing right then I'm always looking forward.

Silvia: Yeah, and it's actually funny, like I, I almost wouldn't call this success because success feels like you have to be like ambitious and chase a lot of things. But actually my goal is to just have what I want and be happy with that. And I would call that successful, but I feel like it's also a different understanding than how I would describe successful.

Rachael: I think we're often taught that success is being rich. And I think that there's different ways of being rich and I know that sounds really floaty, but obviously, you know, for me being financially free is, would be, it's like a, it's obviously something that everyone is striving for cuz you obviously want to be at a certain level.

But equally, I think that that comes at a huge cost a lot of the time. And I think that often [00:37:00] reflecting on kind of where you wanna sit and what actually truly makes you happy and kind of what you want from your life in a whole sense. Cause I think, I dunno about you, but I think that most people that I know who've studied architecture didn't necessarily do it for the money or for the kudos or anything like that. It's because they're passionate about something.

And I think that if, if you get to a point in your career, in your life that you are really passionate about what you are doing, I think then you are very successful no matter whether or not you are. Just, an architectural technologist and you've never moved out of that space and you are feeling like you should do.

You shouldn't see yourself as just something if you are truly happy and feel successful in what you're doing, then that's right for you. And I think that often that's why people find themselves, I don't know, like jumping for a role purely because that's basically what everyone else is kind of telling you to do, and I think that that's where the whole trust your gut thing comes from because you'll find your own kind of success and where you want to place [00:38:00] yourself if you actually listen to it. Whereas there's obviously a lot of like outside noise as well going on that kind of tells you that you need to chase all of these other things that maybe are not actually relevant to you. Or maybe they were and they're not anymore, or you know, that type of thing.

Silvia: I would argue that it's even harder to create a life that you describe or that you create because it's really, I mean, people follow paths because it's kind of easy to follow a list of things and check them off, but to put yourself out there and create something that is unique to you, that you are putting like all your effort into is definitely a different type of hard.

Rachael: I 100% agree. And I think that that's where like I always reflect back on like I'm so pleased I studied architecture because there's so many different elements that really excite me about it. And a lot of my great friends are also architects.

And obviously when I sit down with them, we'll talk about what they're doing and it really excites me and I find it really interesting. But equally, I'm very pleased that that's not necessarily what I'm doing right now because I've kind of [00:39:00] find my way. But it doesn't mean that what they've done is kind of wrong.

It's just. Actually, it's quite interesting almost just to see, you know, when you went to university with a group of people, if you look like, I dunno, on LinkedIn or if you're still connected with them, like personally and touch them all the time. Actually sitting down with those people and being like, oh my.

I dunno, any of them who are all doing the same thing. There's actually like a couple of my friends who I see all the time who we are in the same industry and everything and we went to university together. But there's so many people who are doing so many different things, some not even creative at all, and they've gone into business or like different things like that.

And I think that's where architecture for me is very unique subject because it can take you, there's so many different paths that you can go on, which often is a little bit overwhelming really. So I think that's the thing that you have to kind of deal with a little bit more.

Architect As General Practitioner
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Silvia: We now come to a great point where I can ask you how would you describe an architect in your own words?

Rachael: I would describe an architect, and I dunno quite what, whether the translation is the same in the US as it is in the UK, but we would say like a [00:40:00] gp, so like a general practitioner doctor. And obviously you go to them with your problem and I kind of see an architect as being a bit like a gp, like you know, a little bit about everything and then you kind of pass them on to like the specific person who does all the like, Little elements on different things like the electrics or different things like that.

And I would say that, that's how I would describe an architect is kind of having such a broad skill set in so many different aspects. And actually I think that that's why the whole conversation that we're having here is that it's so important and such an exciting career to have found yourself in because it will be the door opener to so many different things if you want to take them.

Whereas certain industries don't have all of those doors available to you. You can specialize in anything, which is amazing. I think.

That's my little summary of being an architect, which probably doesn't really answer the question at all, but I just think you're a generalist and that gives you so [00:41:00] many opportunities. And then deciding on those opportunities is where people may struggle, but it's exciting.

Silvia: Yes. I like how you put it before where you described it as the backbone, um, or skeleton, which is like how the body is held up, so very crucial.

Rachael: Yeah. I 100% see it as like the backbone, like the skeleton of what has built everything that I've done.

And I think that if I hadn't have done architecture as my degree and as my initial part of my career, then I wouldn't be where I am now.

But then even if I look at it, I haven't really drawn it. I mean, actually one thing that I have drawn is that I'm renovating a campervan and I did all of my joinery drawings, which I haven't done any drawings in quite some time. And I think, thank God I've got that skill set. So, yeah, it comes in handy from time to time.

Silvia: Yeah. And actually if I continue with that thread, So it sounds like being an architect is giving you the tools to make all of your endeavors and dreams come true.

Rachael: I would say so, yes.

Silvia: I love that.[00:42:00] I, and I believe that too.

Rachael: Yeah, I do as well. I think that there's so many opportunities and I think that anyone listening to this, the main issue that you're gonna have to deal with is having too many issues and like opportunities available to you. And, uh, I don't think that's necessarily a huge issue really on the grand scheme of things.

Outro
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Erin: Hey everyone. It's Erin from out of Architecture. If you find these stories inspiring and are looking for guidance, clarity, or just need someone to talk to about where you are in your career, please know that we offer free 30 minute consultations to talk about what may be next for you. If you're interested, head to out of architecture.com/scheduling to book some time with us.

Jake: Hey everyone. It's Jake from Out of Architecture. We love hearing your stories, but we know there's more out there that we've still yet to experience. If you or someone you know would be a good fit for the podcast and has a story about taking their architecture skills beyond the bounds of traditional practice, we'd love to hear it.

Send us an [00:43:00] email at tangents@outofarchitecture.com.

Silvia: Thanks for listening to our podcast, new episodes every two weeks. See you then