Exploring the Intersection Between Architecture, Technology & Strategy With Google's Chrisoula Kapelonis
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Chrisoula: [00:00:00]

Intro
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Chrisoula: I feel a lot of architects sort of leave a building after it's been designed. And it's sort of like you take all of these people that have this deep knowledge about all of the, you know, elements of this space, all of the elements of this building, how it works, this and that and then they walk away. And I feel that post occupancy is really where the experience of a building starts. And I feel it's where, technology can have a huge impact.

Silvia: Welcome to Tangents by Out of Architecture.

Out of Architecture is a career consulting firm helping designers apply their incredible talents in untraditional ways. We're highlighting some of our favorite stories from the amazing people we've met along the way. We will hear how they created a unique career path for themselves from the wide variety of skills and talents they developed in and out of architecture.

Our guest today is Chrisoula Kapelonis, Senior Design Strategist at Google.

Hear Chrisoula share about her ongoing [00:01:00] exploration in architecture, investigating its relationship with technology and its occupants. She shares the questions that she asks of any investigation in her life. And how to keep herself uncomfortable in her journey.

So to begin,

3 words: Architect, Technologist, Strategist
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Silvia: I'd love to ask you how you would define yourself in three words.

Chrisoula: So, essentially architect, cuz everything that I do is really rooted in the investigations of the built environment. so, you know, architect, urbanist, planner, all of that, that whole world, I think interests me. and then, technologist cuz all of the work that I do is really dependent on the, really that technology layer and understanding how technology has an impact, almost like a material to the built environment and then, strategist, because all the work that I do kind of touches systems design, and really starting to think how lots of systems come together, different scales come together.

And, you know, as opposed to really focusing on, you [00:02:00] know, this specific detail or, you know, this task and really trying to like ask those questions broadly.

Silvia: Very cool. And I'm sure they all relate and borrow from one another in how you apply them and use them in your different day to day, tasks. So I would love to hear how your three words, architect, technologist and strategist kind of came about through your career path and what parts of your career brought that out into who you are as a person.

Chrisoula: Uh, that's a fantastic question. so just some very brief background, I did start in architecture. The long story short is I had kind of flip block between wanting to be an architect and not wanting to be an architect in the beginning of my undergrad. And there was a moment where I just kind of realized like, I really care about questions about humans and people and space and how space affects daily living and all of these things. So I had kind of jumped back and forth between like psychology or premed and it's like, I don't know what to do. And then I, I jumped back into architecture. [00:03:00] So in that regard,

like everything that I do is really rooted in, um, my undergraduate education and my graduate education kind of really being, you know, seven years plus of architecture. So I think, no matter what I'm doing, I definitely always have some part of an investigation relating to the built environment. and I think it just really comes from that and kind of the foundation that I was built that was built there.

The Intersection of Architecture & Technology
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Chrisoula: The technology layer I think is, quite interesting because it sort of became something that I became interested in around my third year of undergrad when I had a professor give me _*Marshall McLuhan's*_ book, _*The Medium is the Massage*_, who really kind of starting to think about how somebody decades before can predict the societal changes that would essentially happen because of technology. I mean, he was saying all of these incredible things with incredible foresight, about how we become a global village and that we're all gonna be interconnected. And really, you know, one thing that happens on the other side of the world can affect us and vice versa.

So [00:04:00] ever since then, I kind of became so profoundly affected by that book that I, I was wondering why architects don't think. You know, this very huge, part of the work that they do. Um, and that the fact that it actually has a huge effect.

So since then I had, I had sort of married my investigation about architecture with, you know, what happens once we sort of shove technology there and asked those questions. So my work was really rooted in, in the intersection of those two. and then at some point in undergrad, when I kind of jumped to the GSD. I kind of challenged myself and said, I'm gonna go into grad school for architecture, but I know I don't wanna be a traditional architect. So can I spend two years here trying not to design a building, but asking the investigation about, you know, what can the built environment do? How can we think about the built environment as an interface? How do we think about people in space, agnostic of, you know, the most traditional interface, which is the building?

So through that I actually ended up doing a lot of work, like relating to [00:05:00] things like branding and supermarkets and like rethinking what, you know, the systems of a supermarket could be, or even just like understanding cultural prosthetics and how wearables can really help us interact with, you know, people in space and other people and like, what does it mean if you're here and somebody else is there, you're technically sharing the same space in some, some way.

Or even just working on robots and being like, wow, you know, Our static objects can actually start to have life. And what does that mean once motion becomes part of like the Corpus of architecture. So I think that's where really that strategy bit came from and really starting to say, you know, I actually experienced all of these different facets or all of these different, functions or hats or whatever you wanna call it and being able to approach architecture in a multisystemic multidisciplinary way, and ever since then, it's, it's kind of really been what I've been interested in.

Do I Want To Do Architecture, Do I Not?
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Silvia: I love it. How the umbrella of architecture, you took it to mean everything. Not like, but buildings, but almost right. how did you approach job [00:06:00] searches and carving out a career path for yourself Or like, how do you take these interests and apply them to more, typical jobs or the workforce?

Chrisoula: That is a fantastic question. And I feel like I definitely haven't solved it completely. I think every year it's just different. but I think a really interesting anecdote to kind of bring up is, you know, in sort of major key moments in my life, meaning like, you know, going from undergrad to grad school and kind of asking that question do I wanna do architecture, do I not, I you know, there was a set of questions that I would ask there. And when I finally got to the GSD, it was clearer from undergrad to grad. you know, in terms of like, I definitely wanna continue my investigation, but I'm not sure how.

I think where it was less clear, or starting to be less clear was going from my first grad school, which is GSD into MIT media lab. Because I think part of the thing that happened there was like, well, what is it that I wanna do? Do I wanna go into like, IDO or sort of that type of design consultancy do, which I had worked with them and really enjoyed, you know, do I wanna go into architecture? do I wanna, you know, go into like [00:07:00] material design?

Explorations Guiding Your Path
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Chrisoula: And it really kind of struck me at one point. What is the intersection of every single kind of mentor or professor that I had that I really liked. And they all pointed towards the media lab. So I started taking classes there and was like, well, clearly this is the type of place that I can go to investigate further that technology arm.

So, I was very fortunate, to get in and, and, being in the city science lab, which previously called changing places. It allowed me to kind of grow that intersection and be like, okay, very formally. I'm interested in this space. So the investigation actually really guided me there. And I think the investigation and sort of, sort of the curiosity of this intersection has guided me even to the point afterwards.

So the investigation became really easy, cuz at some point when I went into the media lab, it became really clear that I really wanted to focus on this intersection of like architecture and technology and really build up that arm. But where it started to get even more difficult is okay. I've gotten towards this level of specificity for the things that I'm interested in. I know I wanna approach [00:08:00] things untraditionally. What, where do I go next?

How To Do Investigations at Scale Beyond Academia
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Chrisoula: it's very easy to be in academia forever. I think if that's really the pursuit that you're looking for. But I knew that one of the things that I was missing from the media lab was this question of scale. How do I do these types of investigations at scale beyond just the academic realm? so a lot of what I was kind of looking at is like, well, do I wanna. Do I wanna really lean into the design side and, do something like, go to pentagram and like, build up that side. Or do I wanna go again to IDO and sort of do that? Do I wanna go to a startup? Or more of a company that's kind of in this weird intersection of architecture and technology, you know, things like WeWork or, you know, really asking those questions. They were doing some interesting stuff there at the time. Or like is a tech company, the place that I wanna go? Do they even want somebody of my profile?

And I think what was really interesting is like I made this very rigid checklist or, spreadsheet where I was like, here's the types of jobs that exist in this, bucket I call, [00:09:00] like design agency. Here's the type of job that would exist in like an architecture firm that does stuff with technology. Here's the type of job that would exist or the types of companies that would exist, you know, in a company that is looking at that intersection of like architecture, tech. And then here's what, our groups within tech companies that might have, you know, an architecture leg from there.

So it kind of happened by chance how I ended up sort of where I'm at. But the most important part I think, was sort of having that framework for being able to understand where I can learn from, position myself. Like how I wanna talk to people from the different kind of agencies or different companies. So what ended up happening was, you know, a recruiter reached out and, you know, from Microsoft and we had a chat and then one thing led to another.

So there was just sort of this moment where I actually had three open, like three possibilities from three different types of environments. you know, so Google and Microsoft were saying like, Hey, we would love to have you in our very much like home and space based type of work, you know, [00:10:00] um, Google assistant for home. And, then I had like, design agency say, Hey, we're doing stuff in ambient computing. We're super interested in having you be there and starting to think about how we can work with our clients in environments design. And then I had like, you know, an opening from WeWork and, and the team, there was just incredible. The people there were incredible. And there was kind of this moment where I was like, what is it that I wanna learn from. And I think I just, I just took the risk of like, Hey, I'm gonna move to California. I'm gonna like go on the Google assistant team and learn because I think that one's the one that would make me the most uncomfortable.

yeah, that's kind of how it happened and, was on that team for a while. Looking at like, what is a voice agent in the home and starting to ask these like really diff like different questions that I'd ever really asked before. And then I transitioned to the Nest team over time just because it really became much more of a focus that I was looking for. Um, and it just lend itself naturally.

Silvia: I really loved how you were so inquisitive and analytical in the steps of your process to ask yourself and reflect on where [00:11:00] you wanted to go. Was there any questions or doubts in your mind as you were trying to take the next step and figure out where you wanted to continue your path or was it clear and did you follow what felt right at the moment?

Always Asking Questions, Continuing the Investigation
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Chrisoula: Looking back it seems rational, but I think in the moment it was definitely very. You know, It was a lot of self discovery in a lot of micro moments to kind of really reorient myself. So I think a lot of it ended up being like, Hey, I really care about following this pursuit and what is the best environment that I can start to challenge those questions. And I was constantly, like, my vector was constantly changing in terms of directions. but as I was sort of moving forward, I kept asking myself at each step, like, Is this right? Is this where I wanna go? What is it that I'm interested in? And I even take that practice today where I think, you know, depending on the work that I'm doing, I always ask myself, like, Is this, heading towards the investigation, the questions that I really care about? You know, am, is this still relevant? Is this not relevant? Or like, How can I [00:12:00] extend into another question to make this, you know, more interesting? So, I'm always keeping, like my eye on all of the things that are happening in this sphere. just because like, I think for me, the investigation's more important than like the job title or the company, or like where you're at.

Choosing To Be Uncomfortable
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Silvia: And then you said you chose where you're at, because it would make you the most uncomfortable. Can you elaborate a little more on that?

Chrisoula: Sure.

Silvia: What does, what does uncomfortable for you look like and why did you choose that?

Chrisoula: I that's such a good question. yeah, it was interesting cuz I remember when I had, I was like in the interviews for Google.

I really loved the team. I loved the people. They were fantastic. And, there was just this point when I remember I asked somebody, I was like, Hey, like I'm not a, I'm an engineer. I don't know how to code. I don't know how to do these things like, you know, are you sure you want me ? and they were like, no, we just really care about somebody who can think in a very specific way about a very specific problem. And they can just like, you know, jump onto whatever tools and things needed. Like, that's, that's easy to learn, but it's really hard is to frame an [00:13:00] investigation in a certain way. So I really appreciated that because I felt like. It really helps set the, the tone for, you know, Hey, I'm here to learn. I'm here to figure out, you know, the, the, the specific stuff, you know, and like what it means to be, for example, UX designers.

The first time that I was ever was like, what is a UX designer? What is it that a UX designer is supposed to do? So I think that was interesting is like I never used the tools. I had never thought through that specific sphere. but it almost didn't really matter cuz what mattered was just like, how do I think through this?

So that's where I think the discomfort came from is, you know, I there's a lot of people around me that are absolutely fantastic UX designers, UI designers, you know, visual designers, et cetera. And it was really. A lot of learning time to try to figure out what I am, you know, in this specific function is like this hat that I'm wearing today, but I might not be wearing that hat tomorrow. You know, in another role I might, you know, who knows, maybe I'll be like a product manager and another day I might be like a professor, you know? And I think for me, it almost doesn't really matter what hat I'm [00:14:00] wearing. I'll be super agile and grabbing whatever tools are needed, but that's the point at which it makes things uncomfortable.

Cause I think a lot of times the expectations in certain environments are, oh, you are this hat, therefore here are the expectations. As opposed to you are this person who investigates this, let's figure out like what the problem space is, and then you figure out whatever way to get through.

Silvia: Very cool. What does your day to day look like now?

Chrisoula: so now I'm on the nest team and, the work I'm doing is, on the, platform team

Building A Home As A Technologist
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Chrisoula: that's kind of building, general parts of the home. So I'm not on a specific like device, like a thermostat et cetera. and the work is just really kind of thinking about, you know, how do people use their homes? What is it that people want? And like, a lot of the investigations are super interesting and that they intersect with the same questions that an architect might ask. And I think that's why I find this space really interesting because it's like, you know, how do we start to build a more helpful home? And that's kind of the question that we ask, but it's also the question that architects ask.

So, it's like my day to day, really. [00:15:00] I mean, I'm, I'm in Figma quite a lot and I feel like there's not much of a difference between Figma and CAD . Like, it's just really a different scope. It's like in one you're designing the physical part of a building and the other you're designing sort of the technology layer and starting to ask the questions of like, what do people want, how do we start to, you know, translate things over to them?

You know, I work a lot with the, you know, Google home app team. I work a lot with, you know, people who are working on the thermostat I work. So I kind of like am a bridge across all of these. so in that regards, it's, it's pretty interesting. And in my previous team, I was working on the Google assistant team, but like really focused on the home products. So there wasn't much of a difference between these two, except, in one I was focused more on the assistant in the other room, focused more on the home and kind of that holistic piece. So, um, I always like to think I'm just like an architect in the UX designer's body , in the work that I'm doing on a day to day so.

Programming Space Agnostic of the Physical Building
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Silvia: Yeah and I love how you're still working within people's homes. So very much still thinking about the user and making things for the [00:16:00] user and how work through it.

I can see how the questions really shaped your design process, but were there any other things that you took away from your architecture training that you use now?

Chrisoula: Definitely. I think the, one of the most important parts of being an architect is the ability to be able to represent things visually, um, or like really complex systems in different snapshots to be able to communicate like, Hey, we need to solve this. Like, let's focus on this. And I feel that has translated directly, you know, maybe not in like, I'm not drawing floor plans, but I, you know, in me thinking about certain things, I'm like, Hey, actually thinking about this in plan might actually be helpful. How do we just, even if we don't know what the space is like, what does this mean? How does a person go, you know, from their house to their house or like leave? Like what are the different scenarios that we wanna be thinking about? And I feel plans are really interesting is that they're talking about programming space and in some sense we are programming space, but agnostic of the actual physical building with, with the smart home.

4D Simulations Of Space With Time
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Chrisoula: So that's quite interesting. I feel being able to represent really [00:17:00] well, is an indispensable tool. It's just a communication tool that is very tactically used in architecture, but can translate over completely, in any other field.

And, you know, and that's why I mentioned Figma. Like I use that quite a lot. It's an incredibly versatile tool. And I think one of my favorite things actually is the ability to prototype. Because in architecture, uh, a lot of times we build snapshots like static snapshots. but what's really cool about, you know, a tool like Figma or just, you know, having the ability to infuse motion is that, Hey, like what happens if I play this through a day? Like, what does it mean if a person goes here versus there, or how do we start to think about an interaction, which is actually a 4d type of thing. It's like, you're in a space, which is like, you know, three dimensional, but then there's the element of time. And I, that's what I really like about. You know, these tools is they give you the ability to, to try that out. And, you know, a lot of architects are thinking about simulation. They are thinking about these types of things, and it's really nice to see more of that happening. Cause I definitely feel like in my day to day, I've extracted the value of that in a really positive [00:18:00] way.

How Technology Can Have the Most Impact With Post Occupancy
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Silvia: And as someone who has such a, a head that is both in the technology world and the architecture world, how can you see architects using technology more to their advantage? And I'm sure there's a million ways you can come at that, but I'm very curious to hear yours.

Chrisoula: I feel I've been thinking about this actually very recently, quite, quite a lot. Um, just speaking to like friends that are on both sides of the spectrum and. I feel like there's, if we really look at the life cycle of a building, there's actually a lot of places that architects can leverage technology.

And I think a good portion of that today exists more in the creation and the design phase. they use technology to, you know, things like Revit or, you know, just other programs to be able to kind of pull together all of the elements that are needed to, you know, design a cohesive building. You know, work with engineers, et cetera.

or they use technology to help them with form making and pattern making. But I almost feel like, some of the things that I'm seeing happening today, like being able to model, you know, carbon usage, like [00:19:00] based off of design, like that stuff is so important. And I really excited about that type of stuff, or even just being able to simulate what occupancy could be in a space, you know, as you're designing it or as you're starting to inform like the program. So there's a lot of really interesting stuff happening in the design phase. And then I feel, you know, during the construction phase, obviously there's a lot that could be used there to, you know, try to reduce any errors or like to be able to help, you know, facilitate a more efficient process.

I'm a lot less, I, I know a lot less about that specific space. But there's a lot there. And then, but the part that I'm really, really interested in is post occupancy. I feel a lot of architects sort of leave a building after it's been designed. And it's sort of like you take all of these people that have this deep knowledge about all of the, you know, elements of this space, all of the elements of, of this building, how it works, this and that. And then they walk away and I feel that post occupancy is really like where the experience [00:20:00] of a building starts. And I feel it's where, you know, technology can have a huge impact, which is, Hey, you know, we've designed this space like this, how do we even know, how do we get feedback from its occupants that it's even working as we intend?

Like, how do we know people like it? How do we know? They don't like it? You know, what is like an inefficient use of space and how do we measure that? And start to like, feed that back into, you know, facilities managers or the owners of the building to start to ask these questions, you know? And then there's also the added element of building performance and operations, where I feel there's a lot of amazing efforts happening today. How do we know a building is like efficient or how do we know that, you know, a window open in one side of the building is actually affecting, you know, the load of the HVAC system and the other side, and starting to ask these questions of like, You know, especially during COVID where, uh, you know, the typical patterns of office buildings were no longer the typical patterns. Like people wouldn't come in at nine and, and leave at five, you had like reduced occupancy. So how can the building's performance adjust and learn from actually, you know, these new patterns? so I feel that [00:21:00] like my biggest interest really is in that third bucket and I feel that's where technology can have the most impact.

Yeah, the design phase lasts, you know, perhaps a few years construction phase, perhaps a year, year and a half, two years. But the life cycle, the actual life of a building goes on for decades. And, especially with a lot of the things, the issues that we have today with climate change, global warming, cetera it's and the fact that building contributes so much to that in terms of their actual like operations, I feel that's where technology can have the most impact.

Day To Day Questioning
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Silvia: Yeah, definitely. And, um, how do you balance all of your interests and make sure that like, you can breathe life into the different ideas you have, right? I'm sure you have tons of projects and ideas, and then you have your day job. So how do you balance everything and keep everything moving forward?

Chrisoula: the lifelong conflict of of balance, I feel like, you know, it, my day to day really has certain focuses and those change and like, depending on the projects and, and whatnot, I always [00:22:00] try to make sure that what I'm doing every day, I'm always questioning is like, if, is what I'm doing every day, really tied to the stuff I'm interested in, you know, at a point in which something is no longer relevant or like I've deviated too far from that I will reframe it, or like find another environment that will allow me to do that. Cause I realize it's actually really important for me to make sure that like I'm, I'm guided by the idea, not so much by, you know, things like, do you get promoted or are you, you know, like really, you know, asking, it's like, oh, I'm a UX designer. I should just work on another team in a, you know, those types of things. So I think in terms of my day to. I'm always asking the question, how does this tie back? And like, just making sure that the projects I'm, I'm focused on, I could really contribute to.

And then like, outside of that, I love listening to podcasts about PropTech or architecture and technology. There's a lot of really great ones. Just keeping up with that world and having it informed back into like my day to day, or like really into my long term goals. Like what is it that I wanna be working on? so I feel like reading and listening to podcasts and really just keeping up [00:23:00] on, you know, people who are in that space is, is the way that I see myself working on that stuff outside of the sphere of my day to day.

but it's It all feeds back to each other. So it's like, what I do at work feeds into like what I'm investigating and then when I'm investigating feeds back into what I do at work. so it's all kind of interconnected I definitely feel like there are not enough hours in the day for everything I'm interested in. So sometimes I think I just focus my investigations as, as needed.

Silvia: Do you, take this analytical thinking and apply it to like all the different parts of your life. everything is a bit of an investigation and like a back and forth questioning into, you know, aligning goals and hypotheses.

Chrisoula: Totally. I mean, , it's like both a positive and a negative. It's a positive because you know, everything gets analyzed and then, you know, I'm like, oh, is this relevant? Not, you know, and then on the negative, it's like, I mean, if you're constantly just thinking about even, even things, like, I probably changed my apartment layout every six months.

Um, you know, cause I was like, oh, it's not efficient. Oh, it's not really where, oh, do we use that couch [00:24:00] anymore? Oh, maybe we should make this nook. So I'm constantly like, feeling like everything that I do is, is like a project that I'm working on. So it's really fun and it's really great. You know, if you have friends and partners that like, love that type of thing. but yeah, it's, I'm definitely not the type of person that will just sort of sit back and be like, no, I'm just, you know, I'm content with what I'm always seeking more. I'm always more interested and, and always kind of like trying to investigate. So yeah, it's both good and bad but I definitely apply it everywhere.

Silvia: Very cool. And I also would change my, oh, like I moved my couch this morning cuz I was like, it's not working where it is.

Chrisoula: Very good company.

What Does Success Look Like?
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Silvia: Very much so. So for someone who doesn't, conform to titles and like companies based on titles, what does success look like for you?

Chrisoula: that's a good question. I feel like that success is always a moving target in some sense, depending on. You know, in some instances I'm like, okay, I know what this is. I'm in the beginning of this investigation. Like, I, I, this is what I'm sort of heading towards. Um, so there's like the short term.

And then the long term goals, I feel the [00:25:00] long term, metric of success is always moving because as I'm learning more, as I'm sort of like, cuz every day I feel I'm constantly narrowing more and more what it is that I'm interested in. And it's funny, I look. Even a year ago and I feel I'm even more specific now.

And I was like, oh wow. I thought that I was specific then and you know, I just feel like you can keep going more and you can converge more and more into the things that you're interested in. And then, you know, there might be a moment of divergence within that and then converging. So that's why I feel long term success is always sort of moving for me because as I'm learning more about what I'm interested in, as I'm sort of jumping into different spaces, that might change.

And then there's sort of like the short term things, which is like, per project or, have I sort of jumped like I feel like that one's a little bit easier because it, it becomes more tactical. So I tend to always. Bridge short term, thinking with long term. I think in some sense, my short term success is measured by the long term target.

So I feel [00:26:00] always conflicted. If I have something that I'm doing, that's not always touching, that's sort of long-term approach. so, you know, if it's like, Hey, you know, we need to like fix this thing and I'm like, ah, that thing's not really related to a longer thing, becomes a lot harder for me to rationalize a lot of what I'm doing is rationalizing the short term with the long term thinking.

Silvia: And I like how you were kind of comparing also in terms of, analyzing where you're at, because I've always thought of success as chasing something. But now, you know, when you look back and see like how far you've come you kind of do feel those moments of pride. So I like thinking about that in a more retrospective way as well.

Chrisoula: Yeah, I, I think that's the perfect word retrospective. I'm very retrospective. And like every decision that I make, I look back to be like, how does this relate to this? And I'm just all very forward thinking. So it's kind of like using those two sides to help me inform the direction.

Silvia: So what are you looking forward to in the future right now?

Chrisoula: I really feel my like recent interest in the [00:27:00] past couple of years has been deep in this smart buildings world and really thinking about what we can do with post occupancy in order to help tackle some of our biggest problems. So I think for me, where I'm really excited about is like, you know, how do we start to think about the small touch points that we have in our buildings or in our homes that can help inform things at like a small scale that have impact at larger scale. You know,

I mean, one of the reasons I joined nest is like the nest thermostat has been my favorite piece of technology in the home, probably in just smart buildings in general, because of the fact that it is an interface between something that is like emotional, but also, you know, very metric oriented of like temperature and comfort of an occupant, but can really extend out into the complex building systems that help facilitate that. And I feel, you know, in some of the work that the team had been doing recently with some of the recent launches that sort of [00:28:00] extends out even further, you know, into things you know, the systems that exist in our communities, you know, and just like the fact that, you know, I can save energy without needing to even think about it, but like still balancing out comfort and savings, I think is the type of stuff that I'm really intrigued by. What are other places that we can do that? How can we start to think about, The relationship between human experience and then the performance of the building and like where those intersect in terms of being opposites, but in terms of being complimentary. So that's why post occupancy for me, and like technology that helps facilitate some of those types of experiences really is, is where my big interest is these days.

A Love for Figma
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Silvia: Very cool. while you were saying that I, I had a question that I would love to ask you, what kind of workflows or tools do you, or programs do you use during your day to day that you just love using kind of like a helpful tip or like a workflow that you would love to share?

Chrisoula: Figma is one of my favorite programs. I think the fact that you can, [00:29:00] well, actually I use Figma and Google docs and Google sheets, like basically just exclusively . because I think the, aspect that I really resonate with all of those is the fact that you can be collaborative and actually working in the same document or the same, you know, drawing or whatever with other people, either people as like active participants that are actively like working or as like even talking through as a discussion, I think those types of tools and the fact that they're web based really open up accessibility, you know, to like this type of collaborative efforts that I feel, you know, a lot of architecture tools have been lacking.

So for me, I'm super interested in that. so Figma has been really great to just draw, discuss ideas, discuss final ideas, like present things and, you know, prototype and play around. So I really love that. So kind of what I tend to do most of the time is if there's a problem space that I'm interested in. I'll either like open up Figma and start to make diagrams and then take those diagrams and translate them into words in a [00:30:00] document and start to like rationalize some of the thinking, rationalize some of those requirements and then like, constantly collaborating with others around me and then loop that back into Figma to kind of start to get that end state.

So I feel like I'm constantly juggling between the visual medium and like the written medium to kind of try to solidify very abstract thinking into like concrete, places. I think that's sort of, my workflow is always like, should I write this out? Does that help me clarify? Or should I draw this out?

And I think that's the existential architect question all the time. so in terms of workflow, that's really where I'm oscillating between all the time.

Words or Visuals? Thinking about Medium Translation
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Silvia: I a hundred percent agree with Figma and Google sheets. And yes, I also struggle between this like visual and, written back and forth because sometimes I feel like it's quicker to do it visually, maybe like I'm copying and pasting things or just like connecting things, but then it still doesn't make sense until I need to verbalize it in a way to, on a website or something like that.

Chrisoula: I completely agree. It's like, there are completely different modes of representation [00:31:00] and like, in some sense you need to be definitive and it's like, should I just write this out? In some moments you need to draw out, you know, non-linear relationships or types of stuff. So I completely resonate with that.

Silvia: Yeah. And I feel like in my experience, actually, architects don't use words as much. Like they, that's not their forte. It's very much visual.

Chrisoula: I agree. And I think that was always something that I noticed such as like, you know, architects use words a lot if they're in academia and if they're not, they don't.

And I think that that practice of like really is sort of medium translation. Like how do you translate an idea through mediums and, and start to like, you know, reprocess it because in doing that, you have to think differently about different parts of it. So, um, I agree. I feel architects should write more.

Silvia: And also right to their whoever's receiving it the end user, because that's how you end up developing a language that only architects use.

Chrisoula: Exactly. I completely agree.

Architects Are Those That Question Spaces That People Dwell In
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Silvia: And then [00:32:00] actually on that note, you know, a wrap up question, what does architecture mean to you? Or how would you in your own words define being an architect?

Chrisoula: That is a brilliant question. I think that, to your point earlier about being uncomfortable, I think I'm always uncomfortable calling myself an architect, but it's the only thing that I can say represents what it is that I'm interested in. because it, in, for me, you know, there's two definitions of architect, there's architect as it's, you know, legally called based off of having a license.

And then there's people who practice architecture. And I feel I fall through, I fall on that side, but practicing architecture without using buildings as my material. so I feel for me, it's really somebody who engages in questions about human behavior and space or like environments that people dwell in. So it's agnostic of the medium. It's agnostic of the materials.

I, I feel [00:33:00] that, you know, there's this one thing that I remember, I was kind of unpacking in, in, uh, the GSD when, when you're, where I was thinking about this idea of the silent disco. I mean, It's very interesting because you have people in a space that have these headphones on and they're sharing an experience. But the experience is, is like isolated to each individual. Some people might be listening to one track. Another person might be listening to another. So actually space is really folded in multiple ways, in something like a silent disco. There's people in this space that are sharing a space, but then these people are individually. They have their own environment that they're listening to something, but then they're sharing a space with like half of the other people there and not the other half, because they're in a different head space.

So in that case, what I've always found interesting is like, yeah, the, the, you know, the headphones in a silent disco are actually like a building. They're really defining an environment, even if it's not a physical walls. So I think for me, Architects really are people who are, are looking [00:34:00] into that exp like, what is the experience of space? What is the interface of space? And like, what are the ways in which we can, you know, build interfaces for space?

Silvia: What a beautiful metaphor to try to imagine how flexible and fluid a word or term can be. And architects must love silent disco. Just the idea of it. it's like brilliant

Chrisoula: for sure. And I think, you know, it's, it's interesting cuz yeah, silent disco is this like, uh, it's just kind of a funny example, but you can kind of translate that over into the way that workplace changed over the pandemic.

I mean, people were in their houses in a completely different physical space, but interconnected, you know, through the, their laptops, their phones, you know, their sort of all these environments. so they were sharing spaces and then different meetings. So it just starts to change the mechanics of space in that regard.

so I feel that is like the translation of the silent into like a real world example.

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Silvia: To follow up on that because of what the pandemic has [00:35:00] forced into so many people's lives. Did that kind of just like throw so many new situations and questions into your head about everything living, working, buildings, commutes, relationships,

Chrisoula: For sure. I think, there's a lot of interesting questions that came out of that, which was like, If we end up having, you know, our environments being so centered around the home, what does the home need to support that it didn't support otherwise? I think, you know, that was one question, which is really how is the home shaped and, you know, uh, I, I grew up in New York.

So for me, you know, New York city is a really interesting case in that apartments are really small, but the city has a lot to offer. So the city actually provides the support infrastructure of like, restaurants or, you know, extend your kitchen out into the city, extend your, like, um, you know, hang out space to the city.

And, you know, once the city can't support those in like a situation like the pandemic, well, what, what does the house need to support? And that, that started to change. That equation was really interesting. You know, it became the workplace, it became the restaurant, it became, you know, the park, [00:36:00] et cetera.

So there's a lot of questions about home that came from there.

And then I think on the flip side, it also made you realize. The being in the same place, doesn't necessarily always matter in terms of human connection. I, I think that what the pandemic really started to do, at least for me was I, I became more connected with my friends that were in different parts of the world because were, I wanted to talk to them. I wanted to connect with them. I wanted, and it really brought everybody together. I think in a very different way, because we were. Isolated in our homes and couldn't extend out to the other parts. I think there'll be a, a really interesting conversation about the future of workplace, uh, that is still ongoing and, and really kind of, you know, it's been, it was a lot of years in which people, some people were home.

And a lot of the things were still done the same way. What does this mean? And then the question there is like, what is the role of buildings like commercial buildings, institutional buildings, et cetera, and like, what is it that they can offer differently than what they used to offer, which they were the only resource at that point.

Um, so there's a lot of really interesting questions [00:37:00] of, of different parts. I think of, building types programs, you know, et cetera, that, will probably reverberate on for years to come.

Silvia: Absolutely. And I love that you are the one asking and thinking through these questions because I'm sure all architects are, but also a lot of architects also have a lot of deadlines and projects.

So how can you make use of these questions and actually implement them if you know, how much bandwidth do you have for that? So I'm really appreciate that you're pushing that forward.

Chrisoula: Ah, thank you.

Silvia: Thank you very much, Chrisoula.

Chrisoula: Oh, it was my pleasure. I just, I love chatting with you and I love talking about this. I love the work that you all doing and, it's definitely, you know, really interesting for me to kind of jump in and out of the world of architecture. So I'm always happy to.

Outro
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Erin: Hey everyone. It's Erin from out of Architecture. If you find these stories inspiring and are looking for guidance, clarity, or just need someone to talk to about where you are in your career, please know that we offer free 30 minute consultations to talk about what may be next for [00:38:00] you. If you're interested, head to out of architecture.com/scheduling to book some time with us.

Jake: Hey everyone. It's Jake from Out of Architecture. We love hearing your stories, but we know there's more out there that we've still yet to experience. If you or someone you know would be a good fit for the podcast and has a story about taking their architecture skills beyond the bounds of traditional practice, we'd love to hear it.

Send us an email at tangents@outofarchitecture.com.

Silvia: Thanks for listening to our podcast, new episodes every two weeks. See you then