Making Your Own Path In Architecture with Matter's Erin Pellegrino
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Silvia: [00:00:00]

Intro
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Silvia: Welcome to Tangents by Out of Architecture.

Out of Architecture is a career consulting firm helping designers apply their incredible talents in untraditional ways. We're highlighting some of our favorite stories from the amazing people we've met along the way. We will hear how they created a unique career path for themselves from the wide variety of skills and talents they developed in and out of architecture.

Our guest today is Erin Pellegrino, Principal at Matter and co-founder of Out of Architecture.

Hear Erin share her experiences, building a career where she can be a maximalist, doing everything from teaching to running a design build firm, to continuing to find opportunities for socially engaged work.

3 words: Eri Berry Woman
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Silvia: Hi, Erin. Thanks for joining us. I'd like to start off with three words that you would use to describe yourself.

Erin: Oh, wow. That's a, I probably have three words for all the different [00:01:00] phases in my life.

I think the first three words I would identify with , which I really rebelled against as a kid were. So my mom used to call me Eri Berry Woman, and. I think that's because one, it rhymed with the nickname they had for me too as well. But, I was such a tomboy as a kid and I hated the fact that like, The nickname that you know, that my mother lovingly gave me, had the word, like woman attached to it.

And I rebelled against that forever. And I sort of, I lost my mom last year, but I sort of reclaimed that. the more that I think about it now, because she would always yell at. At like my hockey games, or I remember I was doing like a BMX race once, cuz like I said, I was just a giant tomboy and she would always be yelling it over the loud speaker.

And it was this thing where I was like, I was always embarrassed and now I realize it was her way of just kind of calling out like, Hey, you are the different one here. And like go be, go be that. So that would be, those would [00:02:00] be the first three words I would say.

Ambitious, Curious, An Optimist
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Erin: now, now I think it's a little bit, I would, I'd stick more with adjectives, I guess. um, as opposed to, to nouns, I think I've always been really ambitious. and that's probably a word I would use to continually describe myself. Curious. Uh, I'm just, I'm just constantly curious about everything around me, people, things I like learning. and I think. I strive to be an optimist,

especially now, and even with some of the work that we do, it's really easy to get like jaded and pessimistic, but, I'm, I'm striving to I'm, I'm throwing in the one I'm trying to be, which is an optimist.

Silvia: Yeah, I love that. And thank you for sharing that story with your mom. what I got from that was that you being this tomboy, doing these tomboy things but then like fully as a female, like, is that kind of what your mom was trying to shout out to the world?

Erin: Basically. Yeah. Like I would [00:03:00] play, I played hockey on an all boys team for like 12 years and I did, I have short hair now, but I had long hair then. And it would only, it would always be my little ponytail hanging out behind the helmet and the fact that I was like a foot shorter than everyone else. Um, but it was always like, she always wanted everyone to know that like, that's my daughter, out there with all your sons kicking their ass.

Um, so yeah, it was just, it was this thing and we had. Uh, Charlie and I, my, my design partner at matter, um, had a party last year for our 30th birthdays. And for, for me getting licensed as an architect, uh, and all this sort of stuff. And we named all the cocktails after the, the variety of milestones. And I was like, you know what?

The, the cocktail for me is gonna be the, the Eri Berry. That's that's what makes the most sense. It had cherries in it and, you know, whatever I'm into cocktails, but, that's sort of come back into my life in terms of understanding really what she was, what she was getting at there. And I think that's true now, too.

And in a way it was prepping me to some extent for architecture. Although I think [00:04:00] my class as an undergrad at Cornell was the first one that was equal, equal, like as as many boys as girls. But, that's obviously not the case in the profession. So, yeah, it was, it was an interesting lens to, uh, whether she knew it or not preparing me for, for my future.

And I'm still kind of a tomboy, so.

Bourbon, Muddled Cherries, Lemon, Cinnamon, and Swedish Punch
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Silvia: Yeah I can relate to that. Before we get into your background, what is your drink recipe for the, Eri Berry.

Erin: Oh, um, let's see. All right. So the drink recipe. The, the drink recipe for the Eri Berry is bourbon, muddled, cherries, lemon, cinnamon, and Swedish punch. Um, so it's a little bit fruity, a little bit spicy, and a little bit sour or at least a little bit of a kick. so it, it seemed to work well, at least for, for my personality.

Falling in Love with Architecture after seeing the folk art museum
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Silvia: Sounds delicious. All right. So what is your background in architecture, or maybe you have a story to share about how you got into architecture?

Erin: it's interesting because I, [00:05:00] I teach pro prac and I always have to, or I always try to like, you know, give people a background on me. at least hearing it from me.

And it's the most non-romantic story really, as it pertains to architecture that could possibly be, I was the first person in my family to go to college. so there wasn't a whole lot of guidance on that whole process. And I think at the time, I mean the internet existed, but it wasn't, you didn't have all this like social media around that process.

Right. So I, I, I feel kind of bad for kids who have to go that, go through that today. But, I went to an arts high school. And I knew I didn't wanna go to art school, but I really liked graphic design. And I mean, that's still a part of my practice and my creative endeavors today. but I also really fell in love with physics and I had an amazing physics professor.

His name was Mr. Godkin and he just made learning about like the forces around us, in our universe. Super interesting and fun. And I literally [00:06:00] one day Googled, um, physics and graphic design. And I landed on architecture in my Google searching. Um, I found out about a program.

So I grew up in Jersey, found out a program that was like a pre-college program at Pratt and took that on Saturdays during my, um, my sophomore or my junior year. And. Basically, I was gonna school six days a week, commuting into the city, like a little professional and, um, taking this class and I totally totally fell in love with it.

And I remember visiting the folk art museum by Todd and Billy, R.I.P. On the folk art museum and just totally. Falling in love with that building. and also visiting the, um, as a part of the field trip for the class. So we went to all these places visiting what was at the time, the Whitney, and is now then became the Met Breuer and is now the Frick, I [00:07:00] think, but it's basically the, the Breuer building on 75th and, uh, Madison and just analyzing those spaces for, for what they are and how they interact with light and, and shadow.

And. In those two cases obviously housed art. And I just felt totally fell in love with like this idea of phenomenology and like buildings making you feel something. And, I just thought it was, it was the coolest thing ever. And I had always been building things. I came from a family of, of trades people and contractors, or, um, my grandmother was a dress maker.

So literally everyone just was always making something. Wasn't a lot of thinking, but there was a lot of making. and I thought what's, you know, what's, what's better than making buildings.

Silvia: I loved all of those experiences, just where you like are getting exposed to architecture in your own way. And like seeing it through your like bright eyes for the first time is like, it's really a memorable experience.

Teaching Pro Prac, Running a Design-Build Firm, Doing Socially Engaged Work
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Silvia: And so what are you up to these days?

Erin: Well, out of architecture has, has started to take up a whole lot of time, in a really great way. I mean, we [00:08:00] get to meet so many amazing, amazing people. And also I think even though architecture made me a little bit of a mini minimalist, I think when it comes to creative endeavors, I'm a maximalist.

Like I kind of, I wanna do everything. I think it would be super cool to do everything. And that's obviously impossible because time exists and we're humans and have to sleep sometimes. but being able to see all of the things that architects and ex architects or non architects do with, you know, the, the training and the education we get is just, it's fulfilling in a way that I, you know, I could never do on my own. so that's, that's amazing. aside from that, I teach a lot of professional practice courses to that end. Kind of wanting to have the professional practice course I wish I had.

and then I run Matter, which is my, design build firm, which I run with, my, my business partner, Charlie, who also went to undergrad with Jake and I, where we get to do a lot of experimenting in the built environment with essentially [00:09:00] standard materials and nonstandard ways, which makes me, it's like a, like a woodworker's playground.

Like we get to just have a ton of fun. With our high end clients, which is great. And then there's a sort of flip side to that where we do, right now we're working on a project in partnership, actually with, N J I T, and the design build program that we're running there, on, essentially a series of tiny homes for the homeless, uh, in Newark, New Jersey.

So we had run a studio that did a, um, A prototype of one. And now we are working with the city to do a whole village essentially of about probably 25 units to house up to 50 unhoused, uh, long term homeless residents of, of Newark, which, we try to use a lot of the technical stuff that we figure out kind of on the high end work to inform those, those projects, because obviously things like money and, and really more so time are of the essence.

So we get to do a lot of that socially engaged work as well, which is again, there's, [00:10:00] there's no more optimistic or no cooler thing than building a building, especially if it, it can do, do some good. So, I build a lot when I don't have my architecture or my out of architecture hat on.

Work is not what you expected coming out of school
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Silvia: You are living the dream. I feel like when you're a student in architecture school, like having your own projects, running your own studio is like what I feel like they, you almost think that your professional life will be, and then you join a firm and then you, you find out it's not. And I imagine all of your different ventures started out as an idea that you created and brought to life.

Can you. Kind of talk about the process and how you took these, ideas and created them.

Erin: Yeah. I mean, it partially comes from a, maybe a negative aspect of my personality, which is, I really don't like to be told no, like, I really hate the word. No. I'm kind of an, an obstinate little pain in the ass when it comes to that.

I'm sure I was an awful child to raise, but, I would look at something like, so I, I had a similar experience, right? Like I, I graduated and I went to, or I did an [00:11:00] internship even when I was in school. And I think I learned pretty quickly, like, oh, working in a firm is much different than school and oh, this isn't what I thought I'd be doing.

But I, I still wanted to give it a try cuz one, you know, you don't know what you don't know, but two, I think I was, I felt. Somehow really unprepared, like, okay, you graduate. And it's like, I can't start my own thing. I have to try other things first. I have to work for someone else first. This is what you do essentially.

But I was also like in a punk band in high school and never wanted to do what other people did. so I rebelled against that pretty quickly. And it became at some point a question of, okay, instead. "Wow. I don't think I can do this" to "Okay. But wait, how could I do this?" and really that always resorted back to like just financial things.

The barrier to that is making sure, like, right. You have a place to [00:12:00] live, uh, food and pay off student loans, essentially. right. Those are the, when you're 23, you know, you think about like, okay, I don't need health insurance yet. I'm gonna be fine. As long as I can pay my student loans, my rent and feed myself and my cat. Um, we'll be good.

So I essentially told myself, and I, I bet myself that as soon as I got a paying client, I could feel justified in making a change where you kind of like cut the cord for more, maybe more stable security. So, and even then I, I was lying to myself a little bit but I was working at the time at studio gang.

I had a small project that was kind of, it was paying me every once in a while because it was slow goings. but I got an opportunity to go back to Cornell and teach and I saw just a window that said, okay, I can get really stable income with a lot of time. Right. Because if you're [00:13:00] teaching. I was teaching three days a week.

Fine. and you're living in Ithaca, New York, which when you're not an architecture student, it's super nice, but it's not exactly like there's a ton of distractions. So I moved back, I left studio gang, I took my project, and I moved up there to, to teach with a mentor of mine. And basically just said, I'm gonna bang out as many exams as I can bang out.

And I'm gonna really focus on building my. Practice, whatever that was. And then I did that solo really for like the next I was 2017 next three or four years. Um, Charlie and I always decided we would. Always wanted to work together in some formal capacity and he would come up and, and help me on, on weekends.

Or he would come to site with me and, and help out, and eventually had enough work where teaching full time in Ithaca, got in the way, moved back to New York and just started to expand, uh, my practice right around the time Jake and I [00:14:00] realized that. We would talk a lot about all the things that interesting people were doing that was not traditional.

Creating Out of Architecture
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Erin: So for me, it was building this practice that merged making and, kind of graphic design that always stuck around. so graph design furniture, design architecture, and then on his end, you know, the absolute opposite working for a big company, doing all the things he loved to do in architecture school, but you know, for shoes and we started to each get people reaching out to us. Asking for advice. And, and I had just started teaching in the pro prac realm and realizing how important mentorship was and advising was and telling people like, Hey, it's okay if you wanna do something else. and we just kept having conversations about it until one day, Jake, I think said, why don't we just start this as a thing and Hey, why don't we just call it out of arch?

So Matter and, and Out of Architecture grew up at the same time. and are now my two favorite children.

What if I fail? What if I dont?
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Silvia: Yeah, and [00:15:00] I see them blossoming so well, too. Um, along the way, what kind of thoughts were going through your head? Like as you're doing something that you haven't done before, something that is more untraditional, so I think a lot of architecture school and profession is really easy, cuz there's so much history behind, like what you're supposed to do, how people do it, get your exams, go to grad school.

So now that you're doing something. Doesn't have a roadmap. How did you tackle that?

Erin: I think it vacillated between feeling like, Hey, I can do this. This is going really well to I'm gonna fail. Um, and there's a lot of thinking, always that like I'm gonna fail. and then constantly, I think being of two minds about it, like, all right, so if I fail. What's the worst thing that can happen. but also I think then realizing like, okay, but what if I don't? and it was always a gut check for me. Like, am I doing things I like doing on the general hole? Cause there's always things that you don't like doing.

I'm [00:16:00] really bad, especially in the kind of COVID world. I'm really bad at sitting in front of my computer for eight hours a day. Like on video calls, I have to be like up and moving. And that's what I love about being on site. it's also what I love about like engaging calls, but like calls where you just sort of sit there.

I'm just, I'm just so not, not into it, but I think the constant battle was always against myself and feelings of like insecurity or inadequacy. And then at the same time needing to realize. With Matter. For example, I would be on site with, you know, our electricians and our GCs and, you know, the, the foreman and, and whatnot. And they're all listening to me this, you know, five foot tall, 26 year old , telling them what to do and giving me actually a ton of respect and genuinely interested in what I had to say. I remember when my, the GC who we work with all the time, who's, who's a lovely, guy. When he found out how old I was, I was about, I think, the age of his kids.

And he was [00:17:00] like, really? Um, so that was, that was interesting, but I think, look, I, the enemy was always my, myself. I had really, and still have really great clients, a really great kind of support network. Jake being one of those people who could always just be there in moments where I felt like I couldn't do it and just be like, but look at like, look objectively around, like, it's stop trying to convince yourself you're not on the right path.

Insecure Overachiever
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Erin: I think I also realized that a certain point, like I didn't find having a job to feel more secure. I actually fear more, feel more in control. By controlling my time and myself, because it feels like. I know if I'm gonna fire myself. Right. Um, which, uh, you know, is, is sort of a contradiction in terms but I have, I have friends who are, you know, either they've been let go before and I've been, let go that that's never a good feeling and I frankly never wanna feel it again. But that comes from not feeling like you're not in control and I'm a little bit of a control freak in that sense. I think a lot of architects are, So for me, it [00:18:00] was a way of dealing with that anxiety and then working through feelings of inadequacy and, and confidence, like insecurity around that.

in the book we talk about this phrase, like the insecure overachiever and i, i, em, embodied that pretty well. It's like I have to, I'm always gonna try to do things, but somehow in my mind, it's, you know, never enough

Two Moments of Finding Success
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Silvia: Can you share some moments where you started to really feel confident because you've seen the results of your work. Like this project, I can't feel insecure about this cuz it's so obvious the amount of work you put in that paid off.

Erin: Yeah. I guess a couple moments, the most vivid one was paired with like severe physical exhaustion. So I think that's why it was probably the most impactful, but, The fir one of the first built projects we did was a, a continuation of a, my first design studio at the GSD. So it was the Alpine shelter in, uh, Slovenia on the border between Slovenia and Austria. And it was this building that, was put [00:19:00] in the Alps by helicopter in like three pieces. So the helicopter had to fly up a bunch to bring each component piece in the concrete and, and all that. and. Seeing that go up, come from, you know, a quick concept model through everything. And then actually seeing it like flying through the air and be installed was like amazing.

But the, the real sort of maybe come to Jesus moment, for me was hiking up to it. And it's like, you know, a four hour, five hour hike. and I'm asthmatic, which I didn't think about when I was going to a place that was like, you know, 4,000 feet above sea level, but by the time you're, you're up there and I'm, I'm like really kind of gasping for air. I'm a fairly fit individual, but, uh, I wasn't prepared for the lack of oxygen. I remember just turning my head the way you approach the project. you kind of come up this, this mountain face and. You come at it at an angle and we made it a grade that is very similar [00:20:00] to the rock around it. So I almost really didn't see it from far away. And I remember looking at it and the light kind of hit the glass and it just sort of did this little spark and that's how I saw it. And I remember just being completely exhausted. Like my legs were ready to give out from under me and, you know, losing, losing oxygen. And I like, I really wanted to, or I almost cried in that moment.

One because that's what that building is there for. It's it's for exhausted travelers who need to sit down, for a matter of, of life and death. I was not gonna die, but I remember seeing it and really feeling the gravity of why that was there and like being a part of that just felt really cool. And then also knowing I could just sit down in it was on a major, uh, a major reprieve. And I remember being completely exhausted, but staying up all night with, someone else on our team, from the studio, Fred, we hiked up there together and just like not being able to sleep, having to go outside and look at it again to see that it was there and take photos of it against the stars. And it was just the [00:21:00] coolest, coolest moment. and then hiking down actually was harder than climbing up. but that, that was a major win, I think finally, really seeing that, that's a, a moment. I don't know. I'll if I've ever felt something similar.

Another moment though, where i, I found kind of success in a project, was, is completely the opposite. It's not a crazy cool building on a mountain. It's it's one of the first kitchen, uh, redesigns. I did, it was actually the project I was working on at studio gang that, I left to kind of basically start my own practice on. It was this kitchen renovation, and this. Experimental mid-century modern house that was built on Martha's vineyard, small project, like, you know, eight by 16, maybe. So, really just not a, a big thing, but, one the history of the building and how interesting it was and, and the people involved, but two, the kitchen redesign. Going from this small thing that this architect had built for his three kids to go on vacation [00:22:00] there that now the, the three kids own that property and bring their families. Each of them have at least two kids and really they had outgrown what was built, but had such an affinity for this building that they didn't want to really alter it in any substantial way. So we had a lot of conversations about just like, intimately how they wanna use that space. And I remember having dinner with them a bunch and trying to understand how could we improve this without destroying the houses made entirely outta glass.

So how do we, how do we do this in a way that's like respectful, but also like utilitarian. And it was a long process because the building was sinking and everything was falling apart and all this sort of stuff. And I remember like a, a year or two after we finally, had started it, the kitchen renovation was done, which is like the longest kitchen renovation ever.

And I remember going to a, a sort of dinner there and seeing everyone use the new space and have it really fit their needs. And also to me, really not destroy. What this [00:23:00] building was, cuz this, it, there is it still exists. It's this beautiful piece of architecture and just realizing like, wow, this is what the power of like really well considered design can do. And you know, their kids are like my age and they're gonna have kids at some point. And it's like, this now fits in this story of a family. And I think a really interesting part of that to me was that, you know, architects play a role in what it means to like build a home. In the sense that they create the structure around it, and you can enhance the structure in order to feed that sort of family dynamic. And the fact that I could play a part in. Modifying this thing that was already like another family member. and see that blossom was really great. And then it turned into like six more projects so it ended up being a, a really good client contact.

Silvia: Good wins all around.

Erin: Yeah.

Architecture is an Inherently Optimistic Act
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Silvia: I like to ask this question, um, usually towards the end, but I think it's a good time for it now. How would you define an architect in your own words?

Erin: Oh, man. How [00:24:00] would I define an architect in my own words? so early in my career, I worked for Todd and Billy and I always really liked the fact that kind of the first few sentences of their manifesto or first few words of their manifesto is that, Architecture is like an inherently optimistic act.

And I, I always latched onto that because I realized, you know, if you, if you wanna work at all in the built environment, You're doing it, probably because you wanna make the world a better place. And that's like the super trite thing to say, but if you're gonna put buildings on the earth, , you're trying to improve something.

I think that's, again, I'm trying to be an optimist, right? That was one of the words I'm, I'm striving for. but for me, it's always been this balance between I think, making and thinking, and how that process allows me to feel like most passionate and one with the environment around me and making me feel like I can, I can do something positive.

Like it's, it's, it's difficult to [00:25:00] think about. I'm super lucky, right. I, I figured out what I like to do and I've just been able to do it, but,

Overcoming Roadblocks
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Erin: A little bit back to your question about how do you kind of, overcome some of the, the roadblocks? Whenever I was, I would get too in my head. I could always just make something and work with my hands and that would quell that process.

So I think for me, architecture's always been this, this balancing act of wanting to find a purpose in the world and then being able to kind of make your way, literally make something through that. So a maker. I think of architects as makers and thinkers, who are trying to improve the world around them in some small way

Silvia: Jake also responded similarly. he said dreamers, but also about this idea of wanting to make the world a better place. And I can kind of see that, like you guys teamed up and made out of architecture and trying to impart your wisdom and help others, on their, uh, journeys as well.

Erin: Yeah, no, I mean, we spend too much time together. He and I, but, which is odd for people who live in on two separate coasts, [00:26:00] but, yeah, I mean, Part of it is being an idealist. And I think architects get to make something out of nothing. And that is an incredibly powerful skill. and one that is it's like intoxicating, you know, that feeling when I was describing, like seeing the building where once there was nothing on this mountain, And I'm not the one who made that. Right. A bunch of people were involved in, in making that, but the fact that something exists there where nothing once was, is it's powerful.

and it's intoxicating for sure.

Words of Advice for Starting Your Own Practice
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Silvia: Do you have any good things to know or words of advice for people that might be feeling like they want to start their own practice?

Erin: I think for people who wanna start their own practice, I have maybe two answers. It's the right brain in the left brain. the left brain would say, and this is what people told me, uh, nine outta 10 businesses fail. and that's true. And, you know, most designs fail before they become a good design. but [00:27:00] also I think even though nine out of 10 businesses fail, we only really learn from failure. and it's my personal mission, kind of as a pro prac instructor, that there's a bit more knowledge about business and, and the world of finance put into that. If, if you do wanna kind of start your own thing, but recognize that. And I, this is what i, I tell everybody, I work much harder as a business owner than I did as an employee, but I love what I do Um, I don't always love what I do in the sense that I really don't like accounting. um, I hate sending out invoices.

but you know, that's an aspect of, of being, a business owner and it's just something you kind of have to have to do, but be prepared to essentially work, work harder, and be, you know, totally responsible, but that said. I knew very early on a lot of people I worked with and worked for and knew very early on that that was gonna be my thing. And the right brain side of me says, just don't take no for an answer. And every time you fail, just learn from it and, and move on and, and [00:28:00] embrace that kind of failure. Try things. don't overextend yourself to the point where you're physically or mentally, not in a good place, but I say, go for it and go for it early. I think people think, there's gonna be a right time. There's never a right time. I started way early and I definitely made mistakes that I probably wouldn't have made had I kept working for someone else, but I wouldn't change the way things happened.

So, you know, I, I don't take no for an answer. Just keep trying and, uh, treat that like a design problem.

Silvia: I've definitely heard that a lot. We have all these skills as architects that we should apply to our own lives as well and design it and create it for ourselves.

Being a Work in Progress
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Erin: Yeah. I'm in the, you know, I think everyone's in the process of that. and I still think I'm in the, the process of that. I think, you know, everything is a work in progress, nothing's ever done.

Silvia: Yeah, absolutely. It's all an ongoing practice.

Erin: Yep. , that's what they call it. Practice.

Silvia: Exactly. I heard that [00:29:00] even who you are as a person, you shouldn't think about it as being someone, you should also think of that as a practice that you constantly explore.

Erin: I mean, I, I think that's a fantastic way to look at it. I think it's probably also something architects need to hear that like you know, me as Erin, you as Silvia. We are works in progress and the only way you can improve upon that or, or be, be, and learn more about yourself is giving yourself that time.

And I lament the fact that, you know, architecture, especially early can career can really take away a lot of that time, um, or become all consuming. I won't say it takes away because obviously one plays an active role in that. but don't yeah, don't give up or don't lose sight of the fact that you can constantly be a work in progress, as long as you give yourself the, the latitude for that.

And there's seasons for that. You know, it's not always gonna happen. You can't always work on yourself in that intensity, but, checking in and making sure you're giving yourself that I think is important.

Finding Your Support System
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Silvia: Absolutely. You spoke about having a [00:30:00] support group and people that were very helpful to you What are some good places to look for, resources or how did you identify who was going to be someone that you wanted to have close by?

Erin: Yeah, I mean, I've always had, I've always been really lucky and had really good mentors. I had to get really comfortable keeping in touch. It's really easy when you're at school, especially in person. And you see these people all the time. I've had amazing professors and technical advisors and people who I've always kept in touch with. And I think one of the things that was really helpful for me is that early on, they were always very involved in reaching out. Whereas I was probably too shy or felt like it wasn't relevant. Um, or I didn't wanna bother them.

Getting Comfortable Asking for What You Want
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Erin: And I would say again, like quelling those fears of, inadequacy or insecurity around that is really important. And just sort of nothing short of even asking someone like, [00:31:00] will you be my, you know, mentor? as awkward as that sounds is incredibly powerful. for a while growing up. I thought you couldn't ask for things you wanted, like you had to prove that you had to earn it and asking for it was like a cheap shortcut. Not really sure where I got that, but in my head, that's what it was. And I remember, my first year, first semester in architecture school, one of my, he became an incredible mentor for me. was our shop. Uh, directors or a fabrication lab director. And he came up upstairs collecting tools from the first year studio that we had stolen from, or not stolen, but just forgotten to return to the shop. And I remember. looking at this guy and being like, he was funny and, and interesting, and, and obviously had all these skills that I wanted to have.

And I knew there were shop TAs that students were picked to be shop TAs and go through this rigorous training. And in my mind, I'm like, wow, I really wanna be a shop TA like, I hope this guy like sees something in me that makes him wanna offer me that job. [00:32:00] And as this, you know, thought insecurity reel is ticking away in my head. I see Jake, who I was not friends with at the time walk right up to him and say, what do I need to do to become a shop TA next semester? And my like, jaw hit my desk. I was just like, how did he, how could he have asked that question?

Like, and then Brian just started talking to him about it. Like, well, like, you know, we'll talk about it. I, I look at how people do this and he's like, if you're interested, I'll take note of that. And then Brian walked away as if it was the most normal thing in the world. And I think that totally changed how I saw the next kind of phase of, of my career as a 17 year old architecture student. Right. the fact that you're in college now, people are gonna take you seriously ask for what you want. and obviously do the hard work and, and earn it. But. I think people need to get comfortable overcoming their fears and, and asking for what they want.

I [00:33:00] remember being in Rome fast forward three years for our or four years for our, um, study abroad. And another professor there became a, a really wonderful mentor and now a, a great friend of mine. And he was working at the maxi, which is Rome's version of MoMA. And I asked if there were any jobs for the summer. And I remember him. Fielding that question and being like, let me look at, you know, what's going on for the, for the summer and what roles are open, but I could tell that was really hard for you to ask that question. And it was, I was terrified. but just the fact that he acknowledged that and said like, I'm gonna do my best to see, but I'm really sorry that that was so difficult for you to ask as though to say to me, Don't let that be the case. so I think just asking, asking for, for what you want and being receptive to people who wanna be, wanna see you be successful. I'm from the New York city area. So I was always skeptical of that, but I think there are a lot of really great people out there that just wanna see you succeed, which has been a, a blessing to have in my life.

Silvia: Those are [00:34:00] excellent stories. I feel them so deeply that why are we so hesitant to just go after and make the things happen that we really want so deeply? Yeah. So thanks for sharing and reminding me about that.

Erin: Yeah, of course.

Figuring Out How To Get Things Done
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Silvia: Are there any personality traits or skills that you have, um, that you can see that you u sed throughout your career?

Erin: That mindset switch from not it can't be done to just, how can I do it? Like really trying to break things into smaller steps. Which I think I honed in architecture school, cuz I was really into making models and you'll look at someone, you'll look at a beautiful model that someone made and then if you wanna recreate it, you literally have to look at that and then start breaking down. Like how did they do that?

And I think because I was such a like model nerd, I started to do that with literally everything. So I would look at, you know, okay, I wanna take this class like in grad [00:35:00] school, I started to think about like, how could I take classes at the business school and. Was told no, and I, you know, i, I don't like that word as I've, as I've articulated.

and I was told I couldn't take this one class that i, I thought was really interesting, which was this field course, which was basically business school studio. They, you form groups, they give you a $10,000, like seed money and they want you to turn it into a business. And I was like, that is the coolest thing ever.

so I tried to get into the course and there were too many pre-reqs and it was already my like second year of, of grad. So I found another way to work with students from that class as a design consultant on two teams. So I ended up getting to be a team member without actually having to take the course.

And while I didn't get, credit for that course, one I got paid, which I thought was really cool, especially as a poor grad student, but two, I got to experience critique. From the business side, I got to work with people who didn't share my background as a designer, [00:36:00] but did have really amazing insights to in the case of the two projects I worked on like physical products.

One was like a beverage in infuser and the other was like a, like a wearable for your phone and ID and all that sort of stuff. So I think not taking no for an answer and finding a way to get what you're after, even if it's not the traditional way of doing it, even though I didn't get to put the, class on my transcript, I was able to get the experience out of it that I wanted and really enjoyed. And even somehow ended up being better because I got paid to do it.

Challenging How Things Are Done
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Erin: So really challenging, like, just because that's how it's always been done. Doesn't mean that is how it has to be. I think that's also how I ended up getting to teach the pro prac course at 27 or however old I was when I started doing it.

in theory, I should not be teaching that class. I was not a professional who practiced long enough to take that class. But I think the argument I made was that, look, i, I think I represent the next generation [00:37:00] of, of practitioners here and that's more relevant right now. Than saturating or oversaturating the previous, not that that's not useful and we should learn from the past, but I think the things that served me well are also personality traits I should work on, which is being obstinate, not taking no for an answer and, and a little bit stubborn and, and probably too tenacious for my own good, where I've learned to be better is I was a sole practitioner for a while. Life gets a lot easier when you work with other people, and giving up this idea that you have to be in control of everything will make everything, make the work better, more informed, richer, everything gets easier when you're you work with other people and you figure out ways to do that productively. Um, so I would've given myself that advice earlier. had I known it would be so. So much better, like knowing I have Jake and knowing I have Charlie, in the [00:38:00] two endeavors that you know, are passionate to me is, is just as important as me having those things.

Responding to No's
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Silvia: I'm very curious. What. Is your response when you get a no, you've mentioned that, you don't like taking no for an answer, and i, I imagine it just keeps motivating you more, but I've actually, I've been stopped by a lot of nos so I love it when I find people that are receptive to my ideas, but I can't be stopped by these. No. So I'm curious, how you respond to your No's a little more in detail.

Erin: Oh, oh, responding to my no. Oh, it's visceral. Um, , uh, i. I will immediately, or as soon as humanly possible, I will take it to a gym, preferably a boxing gym, and I will beat the living shit out of, uh, a boxing bag, especially if it's something I really care about. but I've learned to, at least when I get the visceral response out of the way, I've learned to try to unpack the no, cuz usually a no is never a definitive concrete wall, [00:39:00] right? Usually it's just, the door is shaped a little bit differently or operates a little bit differently. So I think the most useful thing I've learned is once I get over my, you know, my pride and my injury, I try to understand why was it a no? and how could we turn it into a yes, that is a yes for me. And I think that's made me a better business person. Because that's the, maybe the tenant of negotiation and trying to understand, setting up relationships and all that. But it's also very much what you do in design. You do something, you try it and you realize it doesn't work at the first iteration. The second to third, that's a way of refining the no into a yes. Right. so once I'm able to sort of disassociate and realize that I can do that other process of refinement. Then i, I feel more empowered unless of course you're dealing with someone who just. Who it, who it is a hard, no. Or the, the, the answer or the project or whatever it is, is a hard, [00:40:00] no. I try to get to a point where I'm Zen enough to just move on, but I fixate on it. It's a problem. i, I will ruminate and fixate on why that's happened and I've had to catch myself and, and tell myself like, Hey, let's put our mental energy elsewhere, but typically it's, um, get really angry work through that anger and then decide if, if it's really a No. If it's really a no. Do my best to let that go. But if it's not really a no, let's get to. Yes.

An Impact on the Build Environment
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Silvia: Yeah. Great, great steps. Very actionable. and then, uh, finally, what are you looking forward to in the future? Or what are you excited about?

Erin: Oh man, what am I excited about? I'm really excited right now about this project we're working on, um, on my, on the Matter side, which is, housing for the, the unhoused in Newark for a couple of reasons. one, the, the optimist in me that went to architecture school still really wants to make the, the world a better place. And, I'm from New Jersey and I have been teaching in Newark for. A while now, i, I don't know how many years, but several and i, I will [00:41:00] never forget the fact that one student I had, there was an issue at one point where my students came to me and they said that they had uncovered that some, some theft was happening in the studio.

And when we did some research, we realized that the theft was mainly of, food and like cash for food and credit card numbers for food and the way universities work. the professor's not really allowed to handle that directly. Like you have to bring it to the administration. Um, so it was brought to the administration and we were working together with them on that. And, and when I found out that this student was essentially, you know, stealing from their colleagues for food. They also told me that they had found this student living in the building over winter break, which means that they were ostensibly homeless. And I think one that was just a gut punch and then two, it also made me realize that, that problem looks a lot different than people think it looks and being someone. Works in the built environment. It feels like the [00:42:00] obvious answer for people without homes is homes. Um, so being able to have, have some sort of impact on that beyond being a mentor to that person and trying to help that person succeed to me is really exciting. And it's, what's keeping me going right now because working with cities and institutions is you get a lot of nos. Um,

A Collective Wave of Change
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Erin: so, so that's that I think the other thing, and really. What I'm always, I'm now surprised with. And Jake is too, to some extent with that of architecture is, just how positive Not to feel like I'm tooting our own horn here, but with the, the book coming out and getting all the reception that we've gotten, it feels like this is a conversation. A lot of people really want to have and, and talk about and be open about where we're going next. And i, I have always been a little bit cynical about the profession. Even though I strive to be an optimist and now I think that cynicism is turning into like, Wow, Maybe, maybe we're getting like a, a quorum here [00:43:00] maybe, you know, and our out of architecture is not the only group of professionals talking about changing and expanding the profession. You know, you've got the architecture lobby to some extent the, the arch league and the emerging professionals. You've got, you know, outfits looking to, to unionize and people really having these conversations about things like burnout. So the fact that, we're a part of that conversation and we're seeing. People's lives and hopefully our, collective profession expand and improve. that gets me super excited. And it's nice to know that it's not just like a, a small endeavor. Like it's not just us trying to do that. It's, it's like a wave. That to me is just like, I'm just so excited to see where that goes.

Silvia: Yeah. And I just wanna thank you for doing everything that you're doing, inspiring people trying to make the world a better place. Like it's people like you who keep the world moving. Right.

Erin: Aw, thanks. No, I'm, I'm really, I'm really excited that we've got you here doing this and, a part of the team and, you know, expanding the, the voices that way. [00:44:00] So the feeling is, is very mutual, and, thank you for the, the time here.

Silvia: So great. Uh, I love this conversation. Thank you so much.

Erin: Thanks so much, Silvia.

Outro
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Jake: Hey everyone. It's Jake from Out of Architecture. We love hearing your stories, but we know there's more out there that we've still yet to experience. If you or someone you know would be a good fit for the podcast and has a story about taking their architecture skills beyond the bounds of traditional practice, we'd love to hear it.

Send us an email at tangents@outofarchitecture.com.

Erin: Hey everyone. It's Erin from out of Architecture. If you find these stories inspiring and are looking for guidance, clarity, or just need someone to talk to about where you are in your career, please know that we offer free 30 minute consultations to talk about what may be next for you. If you're interested, head to out of architecture.com/scheduling to book some time with us.

Silvia: Thanks for listening to our podcast, new episodes every two weeks. See you then[00:45:00]