Disrupting the Building Industry
===

[00:00:00]

Intro
---

Zach: I think our industry definitely needs more entrepreneurs who are willing to, think critically about, what the problems are that exist in the world and brave enough to kind of step out and create something new that they think addresses this problem. That's, beyond, you know, just software in particular. that's new types of, design new types of firms, and, uh, business models, related to it. I think, it's very hard to do those things inside a traditional, architecture business model.

Silvia: Welcome to Tangents by Out of Architecture.

Out of Architecture is a career consulting firm helping designers apply their incredible talents in untraditional ways. We're highlighting some of our favorite stories from the amazing people we've met along the way. We will hear how they created a unique career path for themselves from the wide variety of skills and talents they developed in and out of architecture.
---

Silvia: Thank you, Zach, for joining us today. I'm really excited and a little disclaimer for our [00:01:00] listeners is that I work with Zach at Layer, so I have had the opportunity to get to know him a little better over the last, several months. So thanks for joining us, Zach.

Zach: Awesome. I'm excited to be here.

Tinkerer, Designer, Divergent
---

Silvia: Great. And, uh, to start, how would you describe yourself in three words?

Zach: Okay. tinkerer comes, comes to me. tinkerer, um, designer.

And divergent

Silvia: So what is your background in architecture?

Zach: I practiced architecture for about eight years, at a firm called BVH Architecture. I graduated, I think in, uh, 2012 with my master's degree from the U N L College of Architecture in Nebraska, and worked on various projects of all types and sizes.

Everything from like the Haymarket Arena, which is a really large project all the way down. A meeting center out in the middle of nowhere in western Nebraska. So, kind of a lot of, diversity in the size and scope of projects.

Silvia: And what are you working on today or your [00:02:00] current role?

Zach: So currently, uh, I am the, founder and c e O of Layer, which is a project and data management tool for buildings.

So we've been, uh, we launched, I think in, uh, 2019 and have, uh, really been building it ever since.

Origin Story
---

Silvia: So I've actually always wanted to get the background of this story. how did that happen? Like I, I kind of know the background story with, um, the capital building and you had a big project where you needed a better solution and you know, that's part of Layer's origin story.

But I think I'm curious in how. an architect becomes, you know, the c e o of a software company and all the in between steps I know, uh, architects are very much problem solvers, but I think creating a company to take that solution to the next step is not your average day-to-day solution.

Zach: Yeah, no, definitely. So it really, came about by accident. Um, I, I was, I was an architect, uh, working on the Nebraska State Capital. The project team, uh, that was working on that, uh, with me, came to [00:03:00] me and said, okay, we have to gather all this data in the field. we, we know we're going to have a, a ton of The way we kind of typically do it, it was with a clipboard and a digital camera. Is there a better way to do this? So where, over the next five years of design, we can access all this information, as we actually design these individual spaces. And so,

I ended up doing quite a bit of research into, existing software or add-ins or methods that might be out there in order to accomplish this, and really found nothing that was gonna fit our, purposes.

So, being a, being a tinkerer, I, Ended up kind of building a prototype, a working prototype of, of how I thought we could, uh, essentially collect information from the field and connect it back to objects within our 3D model so that we could reference that information as we designed. and the project team was, Looked at it and was, was kind of brave enough to say, uh, yeah, let's give it a shot.

And so, um, at that point, I sunk, um, a [00:04:00] decent amount of time into building out this, uh, prototype, um, that the team was using. and as the project progressed, we realized that this was solving a lot bigger problems than just, the problems we were having on the capital. we were, we were solving problems that most architects, engineers, or really any building professional wrestles with, which is disconnected data.

I think at that point, like. You know, I was a, I was a project architect. I had kind of a, a, a focus on design technology, uh, within the firm. and felt like I was kind of, you know, advancing down the traditional career path, um, for an architect. and so then at that point you kinda had to decide like, is this something I want to jump into and kind of pop out of?

Tradition, my, my, uh, career path that I'm on, or, do I wanna like chalk this up as a win and just keep moving on with my traditional kind of design career or, you know, as an architect. Um, and I decided to, jump into this and see where it would take me. So, the firm I was working for at the time, B V H [00:05:00] Architecture, was interested in pursuing this as well.

And so they ended up, uh, bootstrapping, us And at that point it was only, it was only me. I started building this, product, um, while also still kind of maintaining. my work, on various projects at the firm.

And so I was kind of spending probably 60% of my time doing billable work on, other projects. And the other 40% of my time is being spent on, essentially building out this, this product. And it stayed that way for probably. close to eight or nine months is how that kind of worked out and eventually the firm, um, Just started kind of pulling me off of projects and allowing me to dedicate more time to, uh, building out this product.

and that all kind of resolved in, 2019 when we launched kinda our initial version of Layer. and alongside that kind of initial launch, we hired our first, uh, developer, full-time developer. that kind of was the start, I guess of, the company at that [00:06:00] point when we, launched that initial version, not really knowing what to, to expect.

Stepping away from the traditional path
---

Silvia: That's really interesting. Was it hard for you to step away from projects or was that something you were interested.

Zach: I mean, I, I was, I was definitely conflicted. Like I, loved design, I loved working on, projects. it was definitely something that I was conflicted about. I knew that, the software that I was working on in building needed my, you know, time and dedication, and it was, it was difficult.

It definitely was difficult to balance. . but at the same time, I still kind of had a fear of like stepping out of, the design world and, and kind of out of that, uh, traditional career path. And so, Eventually it kind of came to a head in that, as I continued to work on this and we, were moving closer and closer to when we were going to launch this product, it was like, there's no way I can continue to do both well.

and so, the firm was very receptive to, uh, essentially allowing me to step out of the projects I was working on at that point. [00:07:00] And, Into doing this, uh, full time.

Silvia: Yeah. That's great.

I kind of can see that situation happen where you can't sustain your current workload between, like, sometimes it's just multiple projects even. You said that like, it, it wasn't sustainable Can you elaborate on that feeling?

Zach: I think that's kind of a, uh, a result of the way that like our business model is set up in architecture to begin with and that, everything is based on billable hours. using my firm as the firm that I was working with as, as an example, even prior to founding layer, uh, I was always really interested in, uh, technology and research and how that integrates into the design process.

and the firm is very receptive, um, to those ideas as well. But the, the trouble is like allowing employees, um, and designers. to actually take, take the time, like set aside the time in their day-to-day to, uh, investigate these things and, and like research. Um, these [00:08:00] things,

a lot of firms are interested in innovation and research and technology, but like, if you're not, if you're not allowing employees to dedicate the time to, pursue those, those passions, then it's, it becomes really difficult to, you know, do that sustainably,

what BVH did right
---

Silvia: do you notice anything, um, parti. special about B V H or different that set them up to support layers so much. different than how a traditional architecture office would be.

Zach: I think the first thing that, they did right and did very well is initially, taking the brave step of basically allowing us. Complete a huge portion of our scope of work on this prototype that one of their employees built. that was an incredibly brave step that ultimately led to, the recognition that we were, we were solving a much bigger problem.

I guess initially like allowing, that to happen allowed us to at least immediately validate the problem that we were, eventually going to solve, with our software. Because that happened, like as we [00:09:00] continue to build layer and as the teams in the field used it, I mean we, we had a direct connection between the product and the users and, validating that there was indeed a problem, um, was super easy.

So at that point, like it was kind of a no-brainer that, yeah, we, we need to take what we, we built and, move forward with it. So I. , I don't know in my mind that, that first step in allowing us to actually, um, use this prototype to the, the scope of work we have on that project.

And then the second would be the brave step of saying, okay, well we're going to, we're going to bootstrap this venture as well, was, um, two things that they did. They did right. For sure. I don't know that they really knew what they got, were getting themselves into at that stage. nor did I, but it was, it was braven nonetheless.

Silvia: Yeah, definitely. I can see that that's part of the reason why innovation is hard in architecture sometimes because of all the constant deadlines. Like it doesn't give you a lot of space to experiment and a lot of room to like test [00:10:00] things out because you are so focused on hitting those deadlines. So that is a really unusual move.

Zach: Yeah, no, de definitely it was, it, it definitely was. and it came at the, it came at the right time.

day to day of a ceo
---

Silvia: What does the day-to-day of a c e o of a, like a startup tech company look like? anything that was a new thing that you had to learn that was different from architecture?

Zach: Uh, yeah. I think there was a lot of learning on the job because it was very different than, the world that I had operated. before, and honestly, my, my role has changed pretty significantly. I mean, it probably changes monthly, as we continue to grow because initially, like founding this company, what that looked like in the beginning was me literally building out, uh, this product. and so it was a lot of, a lot of coding and a lot of develop.

and prototyping and, uh, planning, um, and all of that. So along while I was, while I was doing that, um, initially I was also, putting together a really rough framework for what a business model would [00:11:00] look like, for this, for this product. Cause obviously that's an important, of my role is to understand the, opportunity or.

market that exists for, a product like that. So in the beginning it's kind of like you're doing all the things and then, as our team grew, I did less and less development. and way more, prototyping, planning, and strategic tasks. That was, that was making up a lot more of my day, I think.

so development is really probably the first thing that I continued to kind of get out of. And that was kind of a na the nature of who we were hiring, at that stage. But, design in particular has still been. In an area where I've, kept kind of my, my focus, I guess. I, I still, work on all of the prototypes, and, uh, mockups and, uh, feature planning, all of that stuff, for our development teams to implement.

So, Today, we're a team of, nine full-time employees. so my role typically looks like kind of setting the overall vision and direction of the company, working on, funding, developing like financial models for, um, [00:12:00] where we're going and what the next, uh, couple years is going to look like for us.

and developing high level, feature roadmaps and, uh, planning related to that. I don't know. My, my role has changed a lot, as we've continued to grow. I'd say it, it's basically all on the job training for the most part, .

Resources/ Architects are generalists
---

Silvia: Um, have there been any. uh, resources or like really helpful books things that you have found along the way to help you grow into this role.

Zach: Yeah, definitely. Um, there's a, a lot of books, out there, Eric RIes, uh, the Lean Startup is, one, uh, resource that I used. and there's 10 other books that have been , pivotal in me learning, um, this, but a lot of, just research online, when I would run into a problem.

And I think that's, that's actually a skill that I think, uh, architects in general learn. when they're working on projects, is we kind of have to be generalists. Like, you have to be able to quickly learn, about, um, different topics that you may not have had knowledge, um, on. So like critical thinking and the ability to, [00:13:00] uh, dive into a topic and, and build kind of a knowledge base, uh, quickly, I think is, skill that a lot of architects share.

And one that I think really benefited me as we, built this company.

Rely on data and trusting your gut
---

Silvia: when you had to make big decisions, and maybe it's like a new experience where you don't have the background history of like, to guide you to make those decisions, how did you try to, um, find a way through

Zach: Yeah, good question. So, An an example of that, like early on, was before we even launched the product, was the decision of what are we building? what product are we building here? Because initially what we built for this prototype was a condition assessment tool.

It allowed us to create fields and gather data and photos and connect it back to objects in our model. And so one of the biggest initial decisions was to define really okay, what we're building and who we're building it for. because we could either go super broad or super specific.

so as I was. Making that [00:14:00] decision about like what, you know, defining exactly what we're building and who we're building for. I think I've relied a lot on, data, and I'd say that typically drives most of, most of my decisions. I find some way to, justify the decisions I'm making with, information and, and data.

But some of it is also, just your, gut. the decisions themselves.

You kind of have to digest all of the, uh, information surrounding the topic and then ultimately make, a call. I think also I rely heavily on, on what it is on, other case studies or examples of, A situation that's similar to, one that I'm making here.

Being CEO is less stressful than being an architect
---

Silvia: I imagine both are very stressful environments. like how would you compare your days as an architect to currently?

Zach: Yeah. I'd say, I'd say my days today are , less stressful. when I remember like in architecture, the, just the very nature of like projects and the deadlines associated with them generally mean that you're either in a time of, you know, high stress or high anxiety.

You're in a time of calm before the [00:15:00] storm of high, stress and anxiety to get the project out the door. And so, I'd say my days, my days are very different. today, there is still, there is still stress points, when it comes to, you know, funding and planning and those types of, um, considerations, but it's. it's less punctuated.

Silvia: I assumed it would be less stressful actually, just from, you know, like, know, working in Layer knowing you, but, it seems odd to assume that being a c e o of a company and like running a company and being responsible for a lot of things would actually be less stressful than being an architect,

Zach: I think too, like what major contributing factors to that are the fact that like the majority of my work every day is. Under the influence and control of me primarily, or my coworkers, me as in like our company, the majority of influence or control over our circumstances are generally driven by, by us.

Where in architecture. you have all of these other parties that, you know, whether it's, whether it's cost, whether it's schedule. whether it's just even design [00:16:00] considerations, you have all these other parties that you're trying to reconcile things with constantly. And, I think that leads in and of itself to a lot of stress or unknowns.

Don't Miss Architecture
---

Zach: in particular, I remember one of, one of my friends asked me after, after I had kind of made the jump and been um, running layer for a while, asked me if I missed it, if I missed architecture. Um, and I design, um, in general, and I told him, I, I don't, I don't think so.

I, I, I don't miss it at all. I think I'm filling my design bucket with, what I'm doing at Layer. but the difference is that, I can design it without compromise. and I think like, obviously there's good and bad to that. I think that also, contributes to a lot less stress kind of in this role when you're, when you're able to control, what you're working on instead of all these various parties that could, kind of blow up the process at any stage.

Stress from deadlines
---

Silvia: Yeah, definitely. one thing I appreciated in Layer is all deadlines are somewhat arbitrary, right? Like, you know, there's cost implications if you miss deadlines, but [00:17:00] like the internal deadlines that you said along the way, and especially like if there's changes that come up that cause us to work harder to make those deadlines, I feel like that's a, like a very big source of pain Of frustration in being an architect.

for us, With the design deadlines, it's always like, okay, well it'll take like a few days to review this and then we'll set it live. And it's, it's not a hard date. Like this must be done by Monday. And I think originally, like there were some dates that we were trying to match, and it was causing a lot of pressure to reach these dates. So now it's just more of a moving target and. when there's no implication on how that will affect outside of us, then like, don't add that pressure. And I like that we can make that move here.

Zach: Yeah, no, def definitely. I mean, and, and like you said, a lot of those are either self-imposed or, imposed by others when there may not be any real significance to, those, those deadlines. I will say like, I mean, we, we, at least initially as we were building, one of the highest kind of sources of pressure for us and urgency [00:18:00] was definitely our existing users. Like as we built Layer, and talked to users, there was an urgency and there still is an urgency to, improve, um, our platform. But as we've, as we've matured, as the product has matured, it's become, it's become a lot easier to like, you know, the problems that we're solving for customers.

Are, slightly less, well gigantic or huge , than, uh, what we were solving in the early days. I'd say like that, that was, that was still, that was still a source of, of stress or like urgency, for us. But, nothing really compared to the way that we set up schedules Within architecture.

Silvia: And I've come to notice um, working with some of our customers we wanna solve their issues as quickly for them as possible too. You know, we do want to hit our goals, make people happy, like make the end user appreciative, of the work, whether it's a product or a building.

it's just kind of like the journey to get to that point can either be a little less, uh, stressful or, or more.

Zach: Yeah, ex exactly. I think above all else, like [00:19:00] we strive to be highly communicative with our customers and with our users. And so when you're, you know, responsive and communicative with, uh, your customers, it's easier for them to, I guess understand or like get the, uh, vision for where you're headed or what you're building.

Advice for your Younger Self
---

Silvia: Do you have any advice either for your younger self Or maybe someone who is in a similar place where they are creating something really cool for their company, but also handling a lot of project work I think everyone has a thought, like, especially architects cuz we're such creators what if I, this was a company, what if this was my full-time job? I mean, it's a big, uh, leap of faith to take that step, how do you navigate that, those feelings and like those dreams?

Zach: Yeah. Good. Que Yeah. Good question. I would say like, one of the biggest pieces of advice for like my, my younger self or anyone else who is, you know, exploring, you know, this, this type of venture.

To find someone who shares your passion for this and do it together. I'd say one of my biggest, my, one of my biggest, I dunno if it's a [00:20:00] regret, but it's, it's definitely something I wish I would've done differently is, to find someone who, I could, I could co-founder or, or kind of, um, co-lead this, this venture with, because.

Having someone to kind of validate ideas or bounce ideas off of that's just as invested as you are, in an, in an idea like this, I think is super important. And, it's, it's the reason why, uh, to, and this is broader than architecture. This is really with any, with any software startup, co co-founders, um, who found a company are much more likely to succeed than a solo founder.

in, uh, in, in building a company. And I think there's a lot of reasons behind that, but finding someone to kind of share the burden of, uh, and to, to validate your idea is, I think something that's, that's really important.

Silvia: What kind of qualities do you think make for a good partner or like, uh, even like a team, like as you begin to grow your team?

Zach: I think it's less about finding someone with specific qualities and more about someone who has qualities that are, [00:21:00] um, complementary to yours.

And so I, I would say like one stage of kind of our rubric for any hires that we're making, at this early of a stage of company, it's, it's great to find someone who's entrepreneurial, who's, who's, willing to jump in and fill in the gaps. Cuz there's a ton of gaps at this stage of company.

There's a ton of gaps. Um, and so that, that is definitely characteristics that we look for, when we're hiring, is someone who has that kind of, entrepreneurial spirit who is. Just gotta get it done no matter what, um, and jump in where, where needed. and that's, that's hugely beneficial in, in a, in a company where like people are expected, to be cross-disciplinary and architects happen to be great so being, being, cross-disciplinary.

I'd say that's, that's definitely something we look for.

Finding A Startup Community
---

Silvia: for those that want to get into the tech world, what's the best way to showcase their abilities? Because I think when you work in an architecture firm for 10 years, like it's very easy to just only know how to speak architect like, I've done this many square foot building.

So like how can they start to [00:22:00] like recontextualize their, their skills and their experiences

Zach: Yeah. I mean, I, I've, I've talked to, I've talked to a few, A few, individuals at different firms who are like intentionally developing research and innovation wings.

Um, there's, there's a lot of firms, especially in particular larger firms that do that. but, if you're not a part of, um, one of those teams, I think honestly a place that I would start is talking to, people in your, your local startup community. And about your ideas and about like, uh, what you're interested in and what you're passionate about because, there's a lot of people out there that are, are looking for, not only like expertise in a particular field, but also for creators who are interested in, solving unique problems.

I would start there with talking with, people in your kind of local startup community. And most, and most communities have them. Um, Lincoln, Nebraska here has a great one.

Silvia: are you the type of person that has a lot of different ideas, like always like a new idea like, oh, I could do this. Like when you say you're a tinkerer or like [00:23:00] how do you stay focused and keep layer like on track when you know there's, I'm sure there's a million different shiny objects that you can, you come across regularly.

Zach: Yeah, I think like, I think that is an area that, I mean, I, I am a tinker. I'm also, it's very easy to get distracted and to move on to the next project without finishing, the old one. For me, that's always been a struggle for me. And I think with Layer in particular, that's been a area of kind of personal development that I've had to intentionally, work on.

you know, basically staying at it. And I think what has helped with that is that I think very early on, I, The long-term vision of what this product could be. and I could see every step that I was taking, how it was contributing to that long-term vision. And so I think like having, having the long view of where you're headed makes it a lot easier to stick at it when you're doing things that are not particularly fun, but have to be done.

Growth Through Community
---

Silvia: And how do you keep growing? I'm sure you've come a long [00:24:00] way already, but like, how do you keep this process going and also I'm sure like there's moments where you need a break

Zach: Yeah. That's a good question.

How do you, how do you keep growing? I think I. For me, like growth usually happens through community, of, of others who want to see you succeed, and are willing to tell you hard things, that might, might need to be said. And so, like, I, I'd say like staying connected with, people both outside of our company and inside of our company who are willing to give critical feedback on, your performance and where you're at.

is very helpful in, in me continuing to grow as a person in general and also as a ceo. so I, I'd say that's a, that's a major component, like being willing to listen to feedback and particularly hard feedback, from those around you.

Silvia: what does success look like for you?

Zach: I'd say success for me. Really is, causing a disruption in the building industry. think there's a lot of things that aren't working, in what we do, uh, day-to-day. And I can [00:25:00] see, um, long-term how Layer can help.

turn that turn, turn those problems kind of on their head. And so I think that that's what success looks like for me is a, a, being disruptive to the status quo.

Silvia: I love that because that's exactly what's missing from this, industry. It's like so much of it's what's like, don't fix what's not broken or that's how we've done it, or it's fine.

Like, so I'm really ha excited and happy to hear that cuz I think a lot of people feel it, but they, it's like it's really hard to change an industry.

Zach: It is. Yes. Yeah. And it's, it's change is coming. but it's just, it takes time.

Silvia: do you think you need to leave the industry to make that change?

Because it might be, like, more effective than trying to change it while, you know, being a, a traditional architect in a company doing your projects?

Zach: I think I.

It is very difficult to affect major change from the inside. that's just my gut, I guess, on this particular topic is that it's very difficult to affect that type of change within kind of a traditional, business framework or model. [00:26:00] I think our industry definitely needs more entrepreneurs who are willing to, think critically about, uh, what the problems are that exist in the world and being brave enough to kind of step out and create something new , that they think addresses this problem.

That's, beyond, you know, just software in particular. that's new types of, design new types of firms, and, uh, business models, related to it. I think, it's very hard to do those things inside a traditional, architecture business model.

Silvia: Yeah, absolutely. So, and then, um, how would you define being an architect now, having been on both sides of that experience?

Zach: I would say architecture is essentially herding cats. I'd say it's very heavy on, coordination. At least with, with, with a lot of the customers that we're working with on a day-to-day basis too. I mean, that's, that's what I see people spending the majority of their time doing is coordinating and, communicating with a ton of different parties.[00:27:00]

Silvia: And what are you looking forward to in the future?

Zach: I'm looking forward to, the, the disruption that is coming, to our industry. I think, I think it's been coming for a long time now, and I think we're on the verge of, Some major changes, in the industry and I'm really excited to see what that looks like and what architecture looks like on the other side.

Outro
---

Erin: Hey everyone. It's Erin from out of Architecture. If you find these stories inspiring and are looking for guidance, clarity, or just need someone to talk to about where you are in your career, please know that we offer 30 minute consultations to talk about what may be next for you. If you're interested, head to out of architecture.com/scheduling to book some time with us.

Jake: Hey everyone. It's Jake from Out of Architecture. We love hearing your stories, but we know there's more out there that we've still yet to experience. If you or someone you know would be a good fit for the podcast and has a story about taking their architecture skills beyond the bounds of traditional practice, we'd love to hear it.

Send us an email at [00:28:00] tangents@outofarchitecture.com.

Silvia: Thanks for listening to our podcast, new episodes every two weeks. See you then