Episode 1: Understanding the Value of An Architect with Cottage's Manon Paquet
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Manon: [00:00:00]

Intro
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Manon: I feel like all architects have to find a way to put their practice to bigger use because I think we need to try to reach more people. And only if you've really played the game at least a little bit, can you try to change the rules?

Silvia: Welcome to Tangents by Out of Architecture.

Out of Architecture is a career consulting firm helping designers apply their incredible talents in untraditional ways. We're highlighting some of our favorite stories from the amazing people we've met along the way. We will hear how they created a unique career path for themselves from the wide variety of skills and talents they developed in and out of architecture.

Our guest today is Manon Paquet, Head of Architecture at Cottage

Hear how she defends the architecture profession in a tech startup committed to solving housing affordability

Three Words: Determined, Honest, Observant
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Silvia: Hi Manon. It's so good to have you here today. To start off, I'd like to ask you to describe yourself in three words.

Manon: Hi. Thanks for having me. Um, three [00:01:00] words. First word I'm gonna say, um, determined and I think we'll probably get into that a bit more, but if I set my mind to something, I probably don't let go. And that's for better or for worse. If I have a tab open, I'm probably not gonna function very well until that tab is closed and acted upon.

Another one, I'll say honest. I used to view that a little bit more as a weakness, but I think it's served me quite well in my career. And I've been leaning into it a little bit more lately of just being a little bit louder about how I feel and what I think especially at work and making needs and asks clearer and just more honest.

And then the last one observant. I have a very strong attention to detail. Obviously it works out well in architecture when you're supposed to be doing that. But definitely very present in both my professional and personal life.

Silvia: I can see how those qualities would be assets for you as an architect. And I also want to congratulate you for being recently promoted to head of [00:02:00] architecture at Cottage. I'd love to hear how you started off in architecture. What was the journey like and how did you transition to cottage, which is a tech startup.

Getting a foot in the door with LinkedIn
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Manon: Sure. Starting from the beginning. So I'm from France. I moved to Canada Montreal when I was 18 to go to school. After school I worked in Montreal a little bit at an ad agency that had an architecture department. So I've right away, stepped in into this multidisciplinary aspect of architecture. And then I got licensed. I moved to San Francisco and I started working at Perkins Eastman here in San Francisco. I was there for about three years. And the entire time I was working on the 50 year master plan for the U C S F campus at Parnassus down here in the city. So it was large scale, tons of strategy, tons of stakeholder engagement. Obviously U C S F being a public university, it's a very political process to think about how you're gonna allocate real estate dollars for the next 50 years. I learned a ton about how to do architecture, [00:03:00] but at a different, obviously at a very large scale, but also in a very long time frame.

I definitely was looking for something a little bit more concrete and short term. So on the side of all of that, I developed my own little practice. And so I was doing, both sides of that for a few years. And then I entered this deep soul searching phase of thinking, All right, I've, done this for a few years. There must be a more innovative way to practice architecture that doesn't require you to have a traditional job and a freelance practice. And maybe I could get both of those exciting things in one place.

And honestly what I did is I just embarked upon a LinkedIn deep search of anyone who was an architect, but working at a not architecture firm. And anyone that had like AIA in their name, I just outbound them. And I was like, Hey, you're an architect, you work at this tech company, what do you do? Why does an architect work at Netflix or why does an architect work at Stripe? And then surprisingly, a lot of them took calls [00:04:00] with me and agreed to just chat with me about their journey. That was really helpful at the time because it really showed that with an architecture degree you can pretty much do a million different things.

That is how I found Anamika who at the time was the head of Design at Cottage. And we talked for a long time. She, shared her journey with me. I thought it was super inspiring and what she was building at Cottage seemed super exciting from the outside. And so she was like you could freelance for us, you could test it out. It's low risk on both sides, and we can just see how we work together. And, I was like, Why not? So I did that for about six months and then I decided to join full time. And so that was the jump into that. So I think it was a gradual move, but it felt very natural and exciting along the way. And I feel like my practice throughout was getting more and more out of the deep traditional architecture word and just revisiting the way that we do architecture.

More than Architects in the Room
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Silvia: What kind of things did you see at Cottage that kind of impressed you or that you loved being exposed to, how does that compare to [00:05:00] what you were used to in traditional practice?

Manon: The most obvious thing is the amount of people who aren't architect in the room. I tell this to people all the time. It's literally my favorite thing about working at Cottage is that most often I'm the only design person in whatever I'm doing. And I love that architects are a minority because I think in traditional practice we're often, Obviously a majority, but often really by ourselves. And it turns into this kind of echo chamber and we all agree. And there's very little innovating because it's like we all see things from the exact same lens and there's no questioning of why we do things a certain way. And so then when you try to tell someone who comes from, I don't know, an operations background, and you say, I'm gonna sit in Revit and I'm gonna, click 50 buttons in order to export a pdf. And then they tell you, But why? And your only answer is cause that's just the way that it works. That's just the way the software works. That's just the way that we, whatever that task is. And then you have this kind of external party just looking at you like you're crazy of like, [00:06:00] why would you do that and obviously that's a very anecdotal example, but I think it every day working with people who aren't from an architecture background really teaches me a ton about architecture and it forces you to find good reasons for why you do certain things and explain the value of what you do and then just leave aside the things that you now realize just don't have any value.

Silvia: You're a hundred percent correct. I had the same thought in the opposite way, where only architects understand what it's like to be an architect because the things that we have to do are so specific and so unique to the programs and the way things are set up. But I love that you're now saying, but why does it have to be that way?

Manon: It's refreshing for sure.

What Is An Architecture Startup
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Silvia: It sounds great. And also just to let the listeners understand a little more about that context. Can you describe Cottage and what they do and, why is that different than traditional architecture practice?

Manon: Yeah, totally. Cottage is an end to end platform to deliver accessory dwelling units around California, [00:07:00] so ADUs. We do eligibility feasibility. Design, permitting and construction. A lot of that we do in-house, but for parts of it, we also have a network of partners who help us deliver. For example, we don't build ourselves, but we have a network of general contractor partners around the markets that we serve.

Clients come to us and then we guide them, from the beginning to the end of the process. And I think that is the, one of the biggest values of cottage is it's really end to end. You come in with an idea, you come in with a use case, you wanna move your mother-in-law in to help with certain things, or you wanna, get a little additional rental income because you're about to retire, or you wanna downsize and move to your ADU and rent out your main home or whatever that case is.

And then we work with you throughout all of the historically very painful process of building, a small residential. Building and permitting and then construction. What I think is exciting at Cottage in what's different is. First of all, the end to end service was new to [00:08:00] me. I know there's a lot of design build firms out there, but, I had never worked at one, so that, that aspect was already a big learning for me.

But also I think that, encompassing the whole eligibility and the permitting and navigating all the legal framework around ADUs is very unique cuz first of all, it's very new. It's been enabled by recent kind of laws that are trying to, to find solutions to the housing crisis. So, a lot of cities actually don't really quite know what to enforce because their rules are barely three years old and, sometimes we permit in cities that haven't seen many ADU permits so we're all definitely learning together.

What we offer to client is really transparency of what it's gonna take to get you from A to Z what you could expect throughout the process, What stages we're gonna need your input and what stages you can just take a back seat and let us drive. So that if we say something is gonna take X months and be this price, we really try to do everything in our power to, to keep it at that and not have surprises. One of our values in the company [00:09:00] is no surprises and that, that cuts to, every stakeholder in our process.

Using Your Time Where It Matters
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Silvia: I will say that I also work with Manon at Cottage as a freelance architect. So I have a glimpse inside of the process, we are diving into cottage a lot, but I think it's amazing because it's architecture, but it's done with a tech mindset. Can you share how you needed to adapt and what strengths you used as an architect to make this all work.

Manon: Yeah, totally. I think that's a, actually a great kind of segue. I introduced Cottage from a homeowner perspective, but I think if we're diving a little bit more into what it means for architects and people doing the design work in the background it is also really, I think, groundbreaking and exciting because the kind of philosophy of our design team. Put together tools so that people in our network namely a very large amount of freelancers like yourself and a lot of others that, that help us design we wanna put together tools to really elevate their role. And what that means is there's a lot of tasks that are part of a traditional kind of architect role [00:10:00] that are very boring and repetitive, and, Have no value being done by a human. And I mean this with the best of intentions I think out of respect honestly for the creativity and the hard studies and the hard backgrounds that it takes to become an architect. I don't think anyone should be sitting and clicking buttons for an hour to make a PDF out of something.

That being said, there are tasks that instead would really benefit to be, spending more time on and really focusing our creativity on. And so our goal is to free up all that busy work, like you said, all of those repetitive tasks out of the designer's plate. And that is mostly done through technology and trying to find automations in ways that we can have our proprietary software and a lot of other tools to take off a lot of that work from designers' plates so that they can really focus on things that are creative and things that require human touch and things that require actually being done by creative folks. So the goal really is not to replace architects by robots. And I think there's a little bit of that fear when you say, I'm an [00:11:00] architecture startup, it's like, okay, is your goal just to, to replace what people do?

And it really isn't. And I don't think we're even trying to. Designers time, we're just trying to allocate it better. And that is a pain point for I think, the traditional industry where, you know, obviously if you're on a billable hour model, like you have zero incentives to limit the amount of time you spend on something cuz you're just gonna bill more. And we're not on a billable hour model. And that is something that we're proud of because of that kind of transparency piece.

The Value of An Architect
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Silvia: In startups there's a lot of iterating and failing fast. Like it's all about that, which is almost like the opposite of how architecture offices are run. Yeah. Was it hard to adapt to, and once you jumped into it what did you embrace about that culture?

Manon: Yeah, I think as architects we're trained to be detail-oriented, but to a fault and we are scared to publish anything before it's perfect. And we'll just, iterate until, we think it's perfect. A startup mindset, I think. A little bit the [00:12:00] opposite, where it's like, all right, it's half baked, but ship it and then see what happens. It's definitely tough to navigate on a design from, from a design perspective because not only is it just not in our dna and it's really tough to just be okay with sending out stuff that you may not be the most proud of or that you would love to spend more hours on.

That comes with a big challenge at Cottage, is we are in an industry that, you deal with real stuff. You deal with real site conditions, you deal with real liabilities in the field. These are people's lives. These are people's life savings. If a house doesn't work out, it's actually could be the end of a lot of things.

The profession is obviously very protected in many ways. And, there's all these orders and regulations and code, but for a reason. And so trying to break through a lot of this with a startup mindset is actually quite constraining because you're trying to be, Lean and you're trying to be fast at a process that is just designed to be slow. You're trying to be testing things with a process that is designed to [00:13:00] be foolproof and error proof. So I think there are a lot of kind of conflict with that mindset. And there's a reason that architecture firms are the way they are. So it's constantly that balance for the design team. That's tough.

We have over a hundred projects in construction, and that comes with RFIs and that comes with, responding to field questions and things that are happening. In real life. And so I'm constantly reminded that yes, we're here to test things out, but also these are real projects that have to be built with foundations and structural elements and all this stuff.

Silvia: Thank you for that clarification actually, because even though the company or the way that the businesses run can change and be flexible, The work and the process still is what it is. It's still building a home and you can only do so much to streamline that process. You're saying there's still so much respect and work that goes into that.

Manon: Yeah, in the process itself, but also in the product. There are things that you cannot cut [00:14:00] corners on and and I'm not even touching on quality because, and I think that's also a big part of my role is being a defender of good design and good architectural quality. There's a lot to be careful not to compromise and the product is very real. And you only get one shot, right? Like you have to build something, right? And anything in the field that you have to either redo or change is enormous cost changes, and delays and all of this stuff.

And obviously with covid material. Delays and all this stuff. It's been really difficult to run a construction business throughout this time. And so predictability is a huge asset. If you can get there and if you can know what to expect from any construction field is really the holy grail is if what is in your drawings is actually what's gonna happen you've succeeded

And Yeah, I don't take that lightly. I and I think on us who work with designers from all over the country and with a lot of different backgrounds, it really is that much more attention to guardrails and making sure we give all of our designers the right [00:15:00] resources in order to do work that response to all of these constraints and doesn't take any of that lightly.

While we wanna remove a lot of. historical constraints from design, meaning like the admin and the repetitive things. We don't wanna remove the things that make design viable and sound and safe and sustainable in a way that it lasts for many years. And these are things that are gonna be in people's homes for the rest of their lives, and, in their garden. And they're gonna stare at it all day. And so it's a fine line. You wanna speed and, San Francisco and Silicon Valley, and everyone wants to go a million miles an hour. But this is really a business where you go barely one mile an hour. So we're trying to find the right balance between those two things and and learn along the way.

Change the Process In How You Build
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Silvia: It sounds like the takeaway that people that work in traditional offices can have is more so the questioning of our processes and making them more efficient because we're not changing how we build, it's just the way that we do that process.

Manon: Totally. Yeah. You're totally right. I [00:16:00] actually think that the housing crisis is terrible. It is a reality and something's gonna have to happen over the next decade in order to really make a dent in it. And that means, hundreds and thousands of homes are going to have to be built in the next decade in order to, Respond to what's happening. And that's just, there's no question there. It needs to happen. I don't really think it's a, whether or not it's gonna happen is just of a how.

And so the way I approach it and I think maybe that's something that other folks have felt too, like stepping out of the architecture, traditional world. There's a bit of a kind of sellout notion of am I gonna just go, work for a startup just cuz it's cool and cuz you know, I can work on a MacBook , I think there's a little bit of a stereotype and connotation that this is not quite the noble way of withholding your architecture license.

And I struggled with that a little bit earlier, I have to say, but I think I actually really believe now that all of those units are gonna get built and [00:17:00] developers are going to do it. And so it's. A question of do you wanna be in the room or not? And I don't actually believe that we are gonna make a significant impact if our processes doesn't change. And I don't think that traditional practices like are going to be the ones building the thousands of units of housing, in California. There's literally no way if we keep practicing the way that we do, that we can get to this level of output without. I don't know, hiring a million architects and , I guess not having any money to pay them.

That's just not feasible. And so it's actually the opposite of selling out to me. It's almost like jumping up to save the profession. It's like we are still very relevant and I wanna be in the room when people are gonna redefine how we build. And I think there's a ton to be gained by having architects in those room. Then you ensure that the process is getting revitalized, but the product is still upholding the values that were there in the first place. Meaning it's good design. You don't wanna cut corners on a lot of quality stuff. And that is something, [00:18:00] especially when there's no architects in the room, that's the first thing to go. You're just gonna go for cheaper finishes. You're just gonna go for bad insulation, you're gonna go for bad mechanical systems. You're gonna have like terrible. Carbon footprints for the homes that we build and they're gonna, start falling apart in 10 years.

And that's literally the worst kind of littering you can do in the built environment. And so I think it really is part of our responsibility as architects to find ways and cottage is one way, but there's a million ways that we can do that to be part of that kind of next generation dialogue of how do we build homes or how do we literally do anything really to construction and real estate in a way that allows us to focus on the values and the qualitative stuff that we care about. And then just revamp the process. So I think you really hit on the nail, when you said that's the process is what's getting questioned. And I feel so strongly about that.

Architecture for the Other 99%
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Silvia: I also loved what you said about how you're protecting the standards and the quality of the product in the [00:19:00] end. like you said, It's the opposite of selling out. We have to be the ones to push for the quality the people that are living in the homes and having the kind of communities that we want to be living in and building.

Manon: Yeah, and I mean, don't get me wrong, like I think there is room for boutique architecture firms in the future. Those will continue to exist and I am a big fan of very boutiquey design myself , there's literally nothing wrong with building for the 1%, but I think we can't forget about the other 99. And historically, if you wanna have a, I don't know, lucrative practice, you tend to just focus it on people who have money and who probably already have a home and all these things. And I think In order for design to be more democratized and to be more accessible to people who wouldn't hire an architect historically or wouldn't even know where to start and wouldn't even know how to run any sort of like renovation or that kind of stuff that takes guidance and that guidance needs to be reshaped in a way that it's scalable so that you don't have to, do [00:20:00] non-profit work or do volunteer and work in order for people to access architecture that wouldn't be able to otherwise. And so I think this is really striking the middle ground, and that's why I feel strongly about the Cottage mission, but I most importantly feel like all architects have to find a way to put their practice to bigger use because I think we need to try to reach more people. And only if you've really played the game at least a little bit, can you try to change the rules? And I think only architects can really help redefine what the next process of delivering housing units or whatever your built product is in a way that makes sense and that is scalable and that isn't honestly like, I, I hate to be talking about money again, but it's like you don't wanna lose money by doing the work that you do. And there's certain ways to do that and I think that's where startup environments really come handy cuz you come with people who are thinking about things in a way more scalable way than I think all principles at all the firms we ever worked at think about.

Silvia: There's so many things from what you said that I want to [00:21:00] elaborate further on. But even the money thing, like when I was an architect, I never talked about costs in our design meetings. so I was on a homeowner call last night and very upfront, your fixed cost is capped for cottage's fees. It's not an hourly basis, our costs won't change. You don't have to worry about unforeseen costs rising up because we want it to make it work for you What is our end goal here? Do we want homeowners to get these projects built? So let's make it as easy as possible.

Guiding Clients Through The Process
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Manon: Yeah. And our end goal, like you said, is to get the unit out on the market. And we don't benefit from the unit being 10 x the price that it could be. From a financial standpoint, like we benefit from spending less internal time on project management and anything kind of internal that is needed to keep a project moving along. And that is where technology comes in really handy, is like we can find ways to, handle a very large pipeline of projects without having to, triple and quadruple our workforce constantly in order to keep that going. Yeah so again, I think like the [00:22:00] financial savings that you know are different than a traditional practice come from internal operational kind of I don't know new processes and workflows that are cutting there as opposed to cutting into design elements.

And, traditionally I think like for most firms, we've all been on projects where you start from a, blue sky vision. You have this crazy design, client loves it, they sign on it, and then. Estimate comes or permits come, like it can be really late in the process. Then you go through a massive value engineering effort and you cut down all the important things, , and you just really trim it to the point where, you probably have lost a lot of the initial design values.

And then you end up with this me product. And if you had kind of talked about prices way more upfront than. Potentially that could have been avoided. And then also going back to the transparency piece, like I think that's part of our job to guide a client through the process. Like obviously if you show anyone like crazy beautiful renders and you say do you want that?

I don't think many people are gonna say no. But [00:23:00] if you say, Do you want this? This is gonna cost a thousand dollars. This other thing is gonna cost five then you can start to educate them on what it takes and trade.

And I always say this at cottage to clients is you don't wanna cut corners on everything. And if you have a limited budget, like you can have one or two big elements that really make the space. And then we can work with the entire rest of the space to be like, super, super efficient and budget friendly and contractor grade things, but then one big, fancy finish or something like that. And so I think that's where that the architect guidance can really help. And we have a lot of very talented designers that can guide through those conversations. And I don't know, I haven't been a cottage client, but I hope that's fun and that's reassuring also along the way.

Transparency and Knowledge Sharing to Save Time
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Silvia: Two other things that I get the sense of that are, Cottage probably has been very thoughtful about our knowledge sharing and valuing everybody's time. It feels like architects treat time as an endless resource at we can keep iterating, we can keep [00:24:00] making this more and more beautiful or more designy, it all is just boils up to later evenings and more hours on a project. Cottage does a very good job of just making everything so transparent that I see some time savings related to knowledge sharing.

Manon: Absolutely. Yeah. Labor isn't really expensive if you don't pay people. So I think traditionally long hours are probably not very frowned upon because they probably don't cost too much.

Yeah, knowledge sharing is super important. No one came to cottage like knowing a ton about ADUs, like we all are learning together. When I joined, we were barely 10 people and everyone was really new to that specific area. Everyone kind came from a different background and had a ton of expertise on different things which has made the early days of Cottage super exciting and I think very accelerated learning opportunities for everyone.

But if we try to think about, okay, we operate in California right now, we wanna operate in many more markets to come and how do we make sure [00:25:00] whoever comes onto our platform designers or consultants or GCs or clients, like how do we make the following adu, easier to build and deliver than the previous one?

And I'll speak from the design point of view, like that means, super strong design standards and very strong connections to the field and our permitting team. If something comes up, which you know, it always does, how do we just reincorporate that learning back into our standards so that the next person who brings a permit set through doesn't make that same mistake?

And, we benefit a lot from permitting in the same city over and over again, for example, in Oakland, I'd say I think we have probably 15 adu projects and most of those are zero comment permitting at this point because we have nailed exactly what Oakland wants to see.

And we just know, like at this point we've learned many times over, we submitted a few early permits at Oakland and then, you get those comments from the building department. But it's really on us to then, reincorporate those learnings so that we don't have to be told the same thing again.

It's fine to make a mistake the first time. It's telling to how you work if you make it a second time. And I think that [00:26:00] philosophy just applies to, to all departments at Cottage and everyone is super cross-functional in order to just make sure that you know, if someone finds something down the line of Hey, I just visited a property in LA and I realize you need a soils report, and it's yell it to the other side so that they know that, whatever they need to do in that same place. They can learn from that.

Knowledge sharing is huge. Especially a lot of our team is freelance for a design. And so that, that means that people are plugging in and plugging out, and that is a, an intentional choice to, to set up this kind of managed marketplace. And if everyone comes from a different background, they're gonna all do things differently. And then how do you ensure that Cottage design is cottage design and those standards are respected then? I spend a ton of time putting. Notion guide and resources together for designers so that they can come in and feel confident that if you follow the guides, then that means you're a cottage designer.

Making the Switch
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Silvia: One thing that I wanna circle back on when you were switching to a startup, there was some kind of internal conversation you had. [00:27:00] Am I selling out or am I an architect? Can you elaborate a little bit on that what kind of thoughts you were having?

Manon: Anyone who knows what out of architecture is probably is having similar thoughts to start off. I think a lot of us are having these thoughts, like a lot of like our generation of architects. There is such a huge. It's a huge gap between what you learn in school and then what you do in the real world. And it's also, I don't know, I don't wanna say maybe one of the few professions that are still have practicing generations that are like radically from a different kind of upbringing. Like we still practice with people who like only do pencil and paper and we were taught on computers and so that brings, in one same firm or one same team, people who do things like, with radically different tools and radically different approach to some of that stuff.

And anyways, I think. Long story short, I think the [00:28:00] educational system for architecture is gonna have to have a pretty massive over ride over the next couple years cuz it, it just hasn't kept up with the way that the field has evolved and the way that at least technology has evolved and technology is a huge part of how we design today.

I'm on my laptop all day. But if you did that 50 years ago, you would be with a pencil all day. And Education it's a radically different world than what you do when you start at a firm. And so I think, most of us are having a lot of existential questions of is this what I intended to do? Is this how it was always meant to be? Like it is just so surprisingly different and not quite what you expect, that it's I think very legitimate to question that. But then we are really conditioned throughout, long studies and this. Tradition of honoring and masters and there's they're all men and western world centric and all this stuff, but it is a, an industry where you just look up to just these 10 names and you think that I need to be either working for [00:29:00] them or like in their lineage in order to be a good architect. And and that's so hard to undo. That's so hard even today. If I tell my parents what I do, their first question is Oh, our cottage, are they pretty are they nice? Like, how are they Eds? Are they, And it's, and I don't know how to say. Pretty is like the least of my worries when I think about its cuz I'm like, these are homes for real people that are delivered really fast and they deliver within budget and all these things that are so important. And obviously you want them to look nice, but it's not my driver. And there is just this stigma. It's either you are a boutique, like Pritzker Prize winning architect, or you're a sellout and you work for a developer and what you build is cardboard and there's no appreciation from, for like the middle ground of I'm trying to bring things from Pritzker Prize winning firms into the mass, building market and Yeah, so I ramble, but I do think when you step out of [00:30:00] traditional architecture, It is somewhat a point of no return because I actually don't really think that the experience you gain in a startup world is very valued. If you were to go back I think you'd learn a ton, but I actually have doubts that if you, if I was to go back to my old firm and be like, Can you take me back? I've done like all these things for the last two years, they, I'd probably go right back to the position I was and not quite have this like huge. Learning and career jump.

So I think it's natural to have these doubts. I, when I started having these thoughts, I felt very lonely cause I thought I was the only one. And then you start talking to literally anyone who is slightly on the same kind of path. And you realize there's a whole world of architects out there who are like dissatisfied with the profession and have tried to change things up from the inside and it doesn't quite work. And so they have to, jump So then you meet folks like yourself and all the people who are trying to do things differently. And that's actually how we find a lot of our designers at Cottage, they're all like, You seem to be doing things differently. I'm [00:31:00] dissatisfied on my job. Can I help yeah.

Silvia: That is exactly why this podcast exists. Why I think out of architecture exists. Why we are in the roles we are in because you leave it and you're like, Oh, this is great. Like exactly what you said. You try to change things from the inside and you're like, Why isn't it better? Is it just this way?

Yeah. Honestly, at the end of the day, like I get to build things. I get to problem solve, I get to be creative and I do all of this faster. I feel like I can put ideas out there that are heard, are acted upon, and then I see a result instantly. And we're both very close to architecture in our companies that I don't feel like I need to be an architect 20 hours a day to feel important. Yeah. I am perfectly happy with my creative output and my efforts doing things that are very impactful. Actually. I'm assuming you get a very similar feeling.

Manon: Absolutely. And I met someone the other day who [00:32:00] said, I'm an ex architect, and I responded, You wish, cuz I actually think that there's no going out of it. Like I think if you're an architect you're done for life, but yeah, no I totally agree. I think the definition of impact in architecture is just changing. And if I evaluate what I do today with a kind of a grid of are you on the path to getting a Pritzker prize? Probably not. Like at that point I'm probably getting a D or a fail at that. But then if I look at, have I built more. In the last two years than I would've, and probably an entire career at a large firm. Yes. I can't think of a traditional path that would've gotten me to seeing like triple digit projects completed in the last year I just don't think that would've happened. And that's a major impact, but in a different way. And we just redefine what success means in those in that way. And what fulfilling means too. Cuz at the end of the day, it's such a creative job that if you don't enjoy it and if you don't find meaning in what you do I honestly don't think you can go do a very good job at it.

Many Different Hats
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Silvia: I think everyone knows. On a deeper level from personal experience. [00:33:00] So two questions that I would like to wrap up with. The first one is, how would you define an architect from now from your very broad experience in many different hats?

Manon: I think the many different hat species is actually exactly how I would define it.

I don't think we're really good at anything, but I think we're quite good at many things and Being able to constantly contact, switch and learn to speak the language of the person across from you. Is it a permit reviewer? Is it a contractor? Is it a client, is it a designer?

The people that we have to manage and work with constantly, it's are so different and I think we work with such a broad spectrum of people like that to me is the skillset of an architect is having 20 hats and knowing enough to have productive conversations with people who are experts and That is so unique because we get to work with people who are really deep and niche in their own fields, but we are the kind of liaison between all of them and the kind of [00:34:00] creative orchestrator of all of that to get to end product. So I feel super privileged that we get to be that coordinator in the middle plus adding the kind of creative juices and human touch to all of that. I think it's a wonderful position to be in. But it, it takes having many hats and being okay with a lot of people relying on you to tell them about the next step.

What's in Store for the future?
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Silvia: Yeah, that sums it up pretty well, . And then lastly, what are you excited about or what's in store for the future? What are you looking forward?

Manon: I'm not sure what's in store for the future. I think that's a piece that they probably don't tell you when you work at a startup. But thinking past a week from now is really difficult.

Things are constantly changing. I've been spending the last two years like hyper focused on our design standard and quality kind of setting up a system cuz we really didn't have one when I joined. And and I'm so proud of what we've built today. I am excited moving. Forward to I [00:35:00] feel really good about our standards and obviously they're far from perfect, but I feel like they're on a great path and I wanna focus a lot of my energy into kind of team building and finding the right folks to take it from where they are today to the next level.

That means diving into more kind of depth and technical knowledge that, that I don't have and finding the right people to add to the team and make sure that we are constantly pushing the limit of what we know. And. On the people front too is, working with a really wide team of designers it en enables me to have conversations like this one with people that are coming out of the profession and or coming out, coming out of the traditional profession and into Another kind. And that, that gets me really excited because I think the more people I realize are out there trying to do good design work for good it restores my faith in, in, in architecture. And I'm stoked to have a role that allows me to do that and really it's part of my job to actually do this so I'm excited about that.

Silvia: Yeah. I feel similarly. I feel like everything you. [00:36:00] Really restores my faith in architects leaving the profession, but not really leaving the profession, still doing the same things.

Going through it, so you can make it better
---

Manon: Yeah. One thing I will add though, to, and I have been telling my team that, and I feel quite strongly about this. I have no regrets going through a traditional practice and advice that. I've been giving people who are like right outta school is actually, you have to do it. And I don't mean this in a way that like I struggled. You gotta struggle at all. But I feel very empowered to change the rules now because I've played by them and because I've gone through the system and you gotta take your exams and you've gotta get licensed and it's really annoying and it's really hard and it really puts your ego out there and you might fail and it's expensive and all of this is painful. But actually I think at the end of the day, once you're past that, it, you have a whole new lens on what you could do to change it and improve it. And I think that, and I've seen it with many people. I've worked with, people who jump out too early don't quite have the tools [00:37:00] to, in the context, to shape it up afterwards and rethink a lot of the things. I think you can only really rethink a system if you know it by heart.

And you gotta do the full cumbersome permitting process of a large whatever, whatever traditional path you can get your feet on. And I'm not saying do that for 15 years, but do it for a year or two right after school. And don't jump too soon because. Yeah, jumping with a strong traditional background is actually really powerful. And you get to make a huge impact on the other side. So you have to power through a couple of years and then get through that. But do jump. Do jump.

Silvia: This is all about carving your own path for you. Yeah. Actually, I say this to a lot people were, I think about this a lot. You jump when you can't take it anymore in your traditional practice. right for you because you reached that point where like it's just not working anymore.

Manon: Yeah. Yeah. It's sad that you have to do that, but I I [00:38:00] think that's the reality.

I think that maybe going back to the three words in the honesty piece, like I, I think being very, Blunt about what you like and what you don't like is so important. And that allows you to be just in tune with when is a good time to jump and when is a good time to change things.

It felt right for me for a few years and then it didn't. But I think you, in order to be able to have that, self awareness that it's no longer working, you just need to be in tune with how you're feeling and how you're, what you're doing. We don't have a job that is quantifiable and that you can just look at it and be like, Oh, I'm hitting my quotas, like I'm doing a good job.

Or it's tough to evaluate how you're doing, honestly. But I think at the end of the day, my criteria for evaluation for work that we do is, are you learning? Are you creating and are you excited about what you do? And if not, Don't think yet that you should be at the center of this like creative effort.

And so it's probably not working at that moment. And so find something that is exciting to you. And I'm really passionate about, trying to fix the housing crisis and trying to do that with good housing, but [00:39:00] there's a ton of millions different ways that you can be a, an architect for good and and it, it doesn't even have to be the built environment. Like it can be, supporting people getting through architecture school. It can be supporting getting minorities and underserved communities into design cuz also that's a huge issue in our industry.

you can do design and make a huge impact in the industry for the greater world without building and honestly without doing a floor plan ever. But you just gotta find what that is. And to me, like my listening tour on LinkedIn was like groundbreaking and I found so many people If people are out there and, out of architecture is a place where you can meet them. Podcasts like this are a place where you can meet them. LinkedIn is another one, but there's like a million place where you have to just go and it's actually pretty easy to spot architects out of a crowd. So just go and go talk to them. And yeah, just being excited and really believing in your creativity is really at the core of, at least what I wish for everyone to do.[00:40:00]

Silvia: Thank you Manon, for such a lovely conversation. I am so excited about this. I'm ready to go out there and crush it and make the world a better place.

Great. Yeah. Thank you for having me. It was great to chat.

End Promos
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Erin: Hey everyone. It's Erin from out of Architecture. If you find these stories inspiring and are looking for guidance, clarity, or just need someone to talk to about where you are in your career, please know that we offer free 30 minute consultations to talk about what may be next for you. If you're interested, head to out of architecture.com/scheduling to book some time with us.

Jake: Hey everyone. It's Jake from Out of Architecture. We love hearing your stories, but we know there's more out there that we've still yet to experience. If you or someone you know would be a good fit for the podcast and has a story about taking their architecture skills beyond the bounds of traditional practice, we'd love to hear it.

Send us an email at tangents@outofarchitecture.com.