New Year's Break - Redlines repeat
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Silvia: [00:00:00] Happy new year listeners, we're taking a break for the holidays.

Silvia: So for today, we'll be sharing the latest red lines episode.

Silvia: Red lines is out of architectures, other podcasts where Jake and Aaron helped bring light to the darker side of architecture.

Silvia: Or if you haven't listened to some of our other great episodes on tangents, scroll back and check them out.

Silvia: Every time I interview one of our guests I'm left, inspired and excited for what's possible. Take care and see you back here in two weeks.

Their response to that was, You were here until what time? Like, where the fuck's the work to show for it? I was just so angry in that moment. I was seething. I was seething.

They're making decisions based on, you know, whether it's the bottom line, or in their best interest, and not in yours. And it's just very unfortunate, because industry couldn't exist without the workers. [00:01:00] We're being completely exploited for our passion and interest in this profession. It's just really unfair.

This is Red Lines by Out of Architecture. The experiences that isolate us in our working world are also the stories that can unite our community and allow us to heal. In this series, we dive deeper into the core issues that plague the design profession. And evaluate how they result in everyday conflict, discomfort, and workplace turmoil.

We are your hosts, Jake Rudin and Aaron Pellegrino, the founders of OutofArchitecture, a career resource network for architects and designers looking to find greater fulfillment in their work and help navigating the many challenges within the profession. Through our work, we've spoken with thousands of individuals, all with unique pathways and experiences.

Too often in this work, we encounter [00:02:00] stories of struggle, tension, and suffering. Redline seeks to bring a voice to these stories, those privately endured in a school or a workplace, but often clouded by shame, self doubt, and the questioning of one's professional choices. With each episode, we will ask a member of our community to share their story.

We'll offer some guidance and advice and discuss ways to move forward for the purposes of maintaining confidentiality. Names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed or replaced with pseudonyms. Their stories, however, are all too real. On this episode of Red Lines, we speak with Chris about a series of incredibly traumatic events over the course of his early to mid-career.

A small trigger warning that there are mentions of both sexual harassment and depression in this episode. If those make you uncomfortable, please feel free to skip this episode. Chris, welcome to Redlines. We start every episode by asking what [00:03:00] it is that you are hoping to achieve by sharing your story with us and the community today.

Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to sharing my story. I believe it's a story that is worth sharing because I was particularly struck listening to the audio book that you've produced. How? Much more common. A lot of these themes really are in the industry. You know, I think we, we tend to think that our experiences are hyper unique.

Um, even though we might on some level understand that they're not, but we still think they are. And so I'm hoping that by sharing the story, other people can be one aware of the things that go on beyond everyday conversations that. That happened, and two, that we can be proactive in taking the steps to actually make a change in this industry that, um, really can't Continue to go on as it has for so long.

Absolutely. And again, thank you for joining us here today. Why don't we [00:04:00] start by you just walking us through your experience in the profession and the aspects you'd like to share today. I've wanted to be an architect. My entire life started very young. Uh, when I was seven years old, I had a school teacher that told me it was going to be an architect someday.

And since then, that was my path. I sought out. Classes in elementary, middle school, and high school that would support that trajectory. I knew that's what I wanted to do and I started even looking at colleges many years early because my sister was older and looking at colleges and I was just so eager for that experience.

And when I got to college, it was particularly first year, just so much fun and really everything that I was hoping it would be. I was intellectually stimulated. I was creatively stimulated. I was amongst peers that I resonated with and that understood me, um, for honestly the first time [00:05:00] in my life. It was really a very positive experience for me, and I was just a passionate, eager student, and really looking forward to what my future holds.

I can't believe that you were, uh, in elementary school picking coursework to figure out how best to enter the profession at such a young age. I think that speaks a lot to your ambitions for, you know, becoming a professional. And, and I'd be really curious to hear a little bit more about what initially drew you to architecture.

But even, you know, in that experience of your education. What did you, what did you think your first step into architecture was going to be like before you ever really took that, that first full time job? Yeah, I think that what drew me in was, I fortunately had some very positive influences in my life, and I was exposed pretty early to a [00:06:00] lot of sustained art and architecture and things that I think maybe not everyone is always exposed to so young.

And so when I was a kid, I loved going into the city and seeing old buildings and new buildings and being in public spaces. I just found it so thrilling having grown up in a suburban area. It was unlike what I got to experience in my hometown. And it just. Seemed like something that was how we're supposed to, to, to be in exist in communities.

Um, and now these walkable neighborhoods, full of beautiful architecture. It was just, um, I was fascinated by it. And so, uh, going into school again, because I had the influences in my life who had. My aunt, she had a lot of friends who were architects or engineers, and so I actually had been told going into it, like, don't do it.

You know, you're, you're signing up for a lot, and [00:07:00] here's what you should be looking out for. And so even hearing their stories and experiences, I still felt like this was my calling. I had to do it. And you know, lo and behold, I know I I'm an adult and I am getting to experience some of the very things that I.

was more than I might experience going into the profession. So, but that said, I, in school really got to exercise a lot of my different interests. And so that interested me because I have sort of a broad range and interests and skills. And, um, so it seemed to really suit me. That said, I don't know that I fully knew what the profession would really look like once I got out of school.

But I, my transition wasn't as difficult initially as I thought it would be, at least in terms of, um, my first internship and things like that. Yeah, I think when we're in school, we have a very limited view of what the profession will be like, and I think it is, it is different for everybody, and it is, it's [00:08:00] changing fairly rapidly, but, I think it's also, There is a huge disconnect.

I mean, you mentioned we talk about it in the book as well, but I do think it's, it's a very big unknown for a lot of people in school and when they transition into the profession. I'm just curious. What was that like? You went into school. This was your dream to become an architect. You loved school. It sounded like you really felt like you, you had found what you wanted to do and really enjoyed it.

So what was your first experience like outside of school? I started with my first internship while I was still in school, um, summer internship, and it was actually a really, really positive experience. I really enjoyed the people I worked with. I worked on some really interesting projects. Um, I felt my contributions were valued and appreciated, and I was very excited to return.

Uh, working there full-time after I graduated. But what had happened was I had interned for one, [00:09:00] a studio in, in one office in one city, and then had been asked to relocate to another city. That seemed very exciting to me, and so I agreed to do that, and what I was not prepared for was that. It would be a very different culture in that office, um, with very different types of people and interpersonal dynamics that I did not do as well with.

I clashed almost immediately with my project manager and boss, and so I found that hard. It was not something I expected. Having had such, again, positive experience the summer before. But, really what, what started all of that was because I was relocating to a city with a higher cost of living, I was offered, in lieu of an adjustment in the initially agreed on salary, that they, they would provide me with a housing statement.

And, so my first week, [00:10:00] we were brought out to drinks, kind of celebrate starting. And, you know, after a few drinks, people are asking questions about your background or where you're living now. A person who I thought was very senior in the studio, which they were, but I guess I didn't, I'm not a bushy tail, didn't really fully understand, um, the dynamics of, of the studio structure.

Um, you know, was very curious. Well, what's your rent? And how are you affording that? And I let slip, but I'm hoping this housing statement comes through soon. And. That was that. And then a few days later, I got pulled into a conference room and was berated for nearly an hour by my boss about we don't talk about personal finances, that is completely inappropriate, you're not getting this housing stipend anymore, and neither is your friend who had started with me.

And I don't want to hear about this ever again. And I was just [00:11:00] completely flabbergasted. I mean, I, I was just shell shocked, honestly, because I didn't even realize I had done anything wrong. And, you know, they had. And I had a friend, uh, mention like, oh, you know, keep this between us that we're giving you this.

And so I kind of knew that like, that was probably not a good thing. And they, as soon as they had said it, but again, it was like teased out of me with the line of questioning that had that happened. What ended up happening was I actually couldn't afford to live where I live. They told me a number verbally, I didn't have it in writing, and I got an apartment based on what I thought I could afford based on the number they had told me, and I could not afford it.

So, you know, I quickly realized I could not stay living there. I ended up having to move, and they moved into an apartment where I had five roommates, and it was a whole different situation than I had thought I'd be in. From when I first arrived in the city, uh, it was a very different experience. [00:12:00] That is such a difficult thing to understand as someone who, you know, is right out of school and being brought into an environment.

It's always a challenge to, to understand, like, when someone, you know, supposedly above you is asking you for information, when are you empowered to, to decline that? When are you empowered to say, That's not appropriate. You can't ask me about my rent, especially in your first week. I just think that is a really inappropriate position to, to put someone at that, at that level in.

I want to ask you a very quick question, which is now, from your current experience and in hindsight, Knowing that it's illegal for a company to tell employees that they can't discuss salary. Do you feel like you did anything wrong? Absolutely not. I mean, at the end of the [00:13:00] day, I shared something off handedly in a happy hour and to have that kind of come back.

And in fact, not only me, but other people as well, I think is completely unacceptable and it was absolutely not fair to be put in that position. And especially not fair to have the impact other people. You know, my, my friend that started working with me, we were very close and we later started the same day together and we went to school together and we're still friends, but it did create a rift with us for quite a while.

Um, there was a visible, noticeable. shifts in how I was treated in the office and it wasn't until just a year or two ago that we actually talked about this together and it was actually a really cathartic moment. It was a conversation I didn't realize I really needed to have. She apologized. We We realized, decade plus later, that that wasn't our fault, and it wasn't fair [00:14:00] for either of us to feel the way that we did.

So it's a very emotional thing for me because it was like this kind of shattered this thing that I've been holding, this sort of guilty feeling. Chris, can you tell us a little bit more about the effect that that decision to pull funding from you and your friend had on your relationship with them? Also, your perception of trust in, in the office.

I think that there was obviously this tension with us, um, in the office and it wasn't that we were no longer friends or anything like that, but I could tell how she treated me differently. And in some ways it almost felt belittling, like I was an idiot because I had done this thing and how could I have done this thing?

I'm such an idiot for having divulged this information. But I know that's not true and like I said, we, we talked through it and we're all good and we're, we're as close as [00:15:00] ever. But it was, uh, it's a personal issue for a while. So it sounds like you were able to at least get some closure on that experience, particularly with, with your friend.

It seems as though this position did not last or what was your next experience like? After some time it became clear the dynamic was pretty toxic for me and that. environment and an opportunity came up to move to another department and I jumped on that opportunity. I would be able to work on a different type and scale of projects but also to work with people who were clearly interested in what I had to offer and it was very evident that they valued my perspective and opinion.

So I jumped on an opportunity and Ended up being a really great move for me. It brought my career in new directions. I really enjoyed the work that I was doing for quite a [00:16:00] while, but I was working very long hours and I was working very hard. I was going above and beyond doing beyond just project work. I was doing a lot of different things for the office from running programs, you know, you need met.

I was doing it and I was happy to do that for a while because it was fun and it was exciting and I was working with really interesting people. But, what happens After a period of time was I started to kind of move up

that created some sort of dynamic with my, uh, immediate manager who had brought me onto his team. And there became a moment in time when there was a project where I contributed a lot of the. Heavy strategic thinking, um, core underpinnings of the concept and things like that. And that project got picked up, um, by a lot of press.[00:17:00]

And we were invited to present it at the local AIA. Um, however, I was not informed about this. And I think there was an element of feeling like a little bit threatened and co opting of that work to further their own goals, perhaps. But I found out about this event through a newsletter. It was presented at the EIA and I was like, what the heck?

How did I not even know this happened? You know, at the very minimum, I would have expected to at least attend and maybe receive hopefully some recognition on some level, but to like, not even be told about it and then find out after the fact via like a newsletter was just totally crazy to me.

Newsletters are awful to begin with. I can't imagine reading one and having that be the headline. Yeah, so I was, you know, obviously really upset and A mentor ended up having a conversation with this person on my behalf because they [00:18:00] recognized that that wasn't an okay thing that had happened. And so eventually they talked with me and they apologized and they said it wasn't intentional.

It was just slip of the mind kind of thing. But I have a really hard time believing that considering they relied so heavily on me for production of presentations and content and all the things that would go into preparing for that. And we also sat next to each other, so to get there and give that presentation without me knowing it would have been like, you really had to kind of like hide it from me.

It shook my trust in them and feeling we had built a couple years of really great work together and developing our relationship, our working dynamic, and it kind of just eroded that trust I had in them. And it became clear to me, it was like. Time to move on probably looking back at the entire situation you're later on in your career now How do you think it could have been [00:19:00] handled differently or in a way that at least felt more fair to you?

Minimum I would have expected like hey, look at this great thing. We just got invited to present, you know given The nature of hierarchy and all of that, I totally would have understood if it was preferred for this more senior person to give the presentation in a sort of high profile setting. But again, at a minimum, I would have expected to have been invited to come.

Now, it's a public event, I could have gone if I knew that it was happening regardless of whether they told me or not. But at least letting me know that this is a thing that's happening, this is exciting. We're getting recognized for our leadership and Saying a work. So yeah, I mean, I think it was, it was a very simple six, you know, not anything that you would expect somebody to do if you're being recognized for work that you had done.

And it's, it's a bit ironic that it was an AIA event because if I [00:20:00] understand the AIA code of ethics correctly, it's actually really important to recognize the work of your fellow architects on a project and This was someone that sat next to you, so it's not like your contribution was unbeknownst to them.

I mean, it's egregiously unfortunate. Unfortunately, probably rampant. It sounds like this was one of maybe a few things that had transpired over your time in this position. You had been working super hard, succeeding in this role, but What were some of the other things going on that made you think it was time for a change?

Yeah, there were quite a number of things that had happened over time. There was a situation that happened with a mentor who was a more senior person in the office and I was really looking up to them in a lot of ways But as we got to work together more, we [00:21:00] got to know each other more, you know We started getting lunch and coffee and that Eventually evolved into getting drinks and in one particular instance they started coming on to me And I went along with it and I don't really know why I did and they knew that it wasn't what I had wanted but You know, there things ended up getting physical.

Now looking back on it, I can see now, um, things very differently than I did then. That it was probably not an appropriate theme for a senior person, um, somebody so junior to be doing in that way, especially when I was looking up to them as a mentor. And so after the fact, it was pretty clear that I was not happy about what had happened and they did pull me for a conversation and apologized and understood and so, you know, now looking [00:22:00] back on it, it's not something that I'm, you know, have any feelings toward them or anything like that.

It's just, I think it's way more common in the industry than people talk about, like. We inherently kind of know, and we hear stories, but I think there's so much more than we realize, and to some extent, you know, inter office relations, those kinds of things may be inevitable, but being aware of the power dynamics is so important.

Clearly in that situation, there was a capitalization on their part of the dynamic, and me being junior, and, you know, we often hear about the objectification of women in the industry. But we often do not hear so much about the objectification of men.

It does happen in so much way, bringing that forward, but. Also, unfortunately, this is not the only instance I have of this happening [00:23:00] in my career.

Later on, there was another more senior partner level person

who I started to look towards as a mentor, and they kind of brought me into their Fold and caught me on their projects. And I started to pick up since I had had this happen to me before that there was passes that were being made at me and I, you know, being older and a little bit wiser. was not going to engage in it and I think that probably angered them to some extent because the dynamic got very strange and there was a lot of stress and pressure on the project we were working on so that certainly fed into it but I ended up getting yelled at in front of all my colleagues in a conference room one [00:24:00] day after I had been working several late nights.

And we were being required to come into the office at 7 a. m. for check in meetings, because, apparently, that was the only time they had available in their schedule. And so, I had decided to kind of advocate for myself and others, that if we're going to be pulling these late nights to get this work done, it would be much better for us to be meeting at the end of day instead of the beginning of day, because it's very hard to get in at 7 a.

m. when you're in the office until 2 a. m. And their response to that was You were here until what time? Like, where the fuck's the work to show for it? I was just so angry in that moment. I was seething. I was seething. Like, I was killing myself. And, you know, I had just done all this travel and, like, all this stuff for this fucking project.

And here I was getting yelled at in front of all my colleagues for apparently not producing enough work. And I was exhausted. [00:25:00] I was jet lagged. I was like, Doing the best I could, but apparently that wasn't enough. And I thought it was a very reasonable ask. Let's meet at the end of the day. So it took every fiber of my being to not talk back in that situation.

But I didn't and instead I immediately marched out of the conference room down the hall to the big boss's office and I said, I will not stand for being treated this way and you're removing me from this project. I'm never working with this person again. And that's what had happened. But shortly thereafter.

was when I realized it's probably time to, to move on and see if there are greener pastures. I don't know that there is even a strong enough way to tell you how sorry we are that, that that transpired. And yet I want to be sure to express on behalf of all the listeners and Aaron and I, how proud we [00:26:00] are that you stood up for yourself in that moment and that you had taken.

learnings from some of these other experiences and not just sat back and accepted blame for, you know, this person's severe shortcomings. I think shortcomings is not even an appropriate way to address that. But this is the culmination of a very long series of mistakes. And I think for you to go to leadership and also to stand up for not only yourself, but also Your peers who are being put under the same pressure is admirable and it gives me hope for, uh, the future of the profession.

Thank you for saying that. I do appreciate it. It's hard to sometimes believe in yourself. Um, so it's nice to share it from others. Yeah. And I want to touch on something that you already referenced, but I think it's worth kind of bearing out because obviously the. The [00:27:00] stories that tend to make headlines, particularly even recently, right, we have David Adjaye, Meyer a couple of years ago, tend to focus on the more traditional power dynamics in, in relationships, which are typically, you know, male, female, male in the position of power, female in the subordinate position.

But I think you, you bring up a really important point, which is that those are not the only conditions in which That abuse can happen. Abuse of power, I mean. And obviously, it can happen in a lot of ways. It's not always very explicit. Um, sometimes it, as you mentioned, builds up over time. And it can happen whether you are male, female, non male, non female.

And I think it's, you know, we're really grateful that you've chosen to share that with us so that the people who listen to this can recognize that if this is happening to them or to a friend, it does not matter what their identity is, that it is, in fact, wrong. I also want to touch a bit on maybe a [00:28:00] hypothesis I think I have that I believe Jake shares, which we talk about a little bit in the book, but The way that we work as architects, you mentioned late nights, being super passionate about what you do.

The sort of, the way the veil comes down and guards come down in the office creates, at best, and I think this happens in school, really great working dynamic, friendships, and sometimes, of course, yes, relationships, consensual ones can develop, but that intimacy of the way that we work together has a really hard time, I think.

When we move into a professional setting and we bring these habits from school into the the profession and our mentors or the people in power pick up on that and Then start to again kind of bring us into the fold But the thinking is that or the point I want to make is that the way that we work at best Can [00:29:00] foster really wonderful relationships.

However at worst It is ripe for opportunities for people particularly in positions of subjugation or subordination to be abused and exploited. That abuse can happen of a sexual nature, but it can also happen, and it sounds like you were hit with both of these, to just exploit your personal health, your mental health, your physical health.

And you've obviously gone through a lot of this throughout your career and you're coming into us to tell us the story, but I guess I'm wondering, what do you think or what advice would you give to your younger self now or someone who's in the position that you found yourself in maybe earlier in their career?

What advice would you give someone starting out now? I think I would say, don't be so quick to just give up your time entirely for free. [00:30:00] You only get your, your 20 back, 20s once, you know, get it, that time back, the time in your life back. And I certainly got to enjoy my 20s for sure. I had a lot of fun. But when I think of the relationships that I didn't get to have because of the hours I was working or, uh, Things I've missed or whatever it might be that I wasn't putting energy into, that I could have, to not let those things go and, and, and be more confident and, and advocating for yourself and, and your time, especially.

Navigating the aftermath of these unwanted advances at work is super challenging. And you said there was a moment there where you just had, had had enough and realized it was time to move on. How did you manage to keep moving forward in your career after that experience? I fortunately had a lot of people in my corner and, um, people that respected me.

[00:31:00] And so that's really what kept me going was knowing that I was putting out good work and I was appreciated and respected by not only my superiors, but my colleagues, my friends. And I think that's what really kept me going. But it's been tested time and time again, you know, there's many more parts to this story.

Once again, we have a passionate young architect who has dreamed about this career and lifestyle since a young age, but already they've had to endure mistreatment, abuse, overworking, and even unwanted sexual advances. Any of these in isolation could lead to mental health issues, never mind all of them one after the other.

Sometimes at the same time, any employee would expect the support of their employer, or at a bare minimum an understanding, especially during a worldwide pandemic.[00:32:00]

2020 was a hard time for a lot of people, I know. But particularly for me, my mental health really just took a super nose dive. I was working 16 hour days and barely moving more than five feet in my tiny apartment, sitting at a table that did not have very good ergonomics and, you know, not leaving my apartment for days at a time.

Then there were many other things going on there for me personally, but depression had like pretty quickly sunk in and I was not in a good place. And so I finally had. I decided to see a therapist and they very quickly recommended immediately taking a leave of absence, recognizing that I was on the brink of a deep burnout, and recommended I do so utilizing FemBlah.

aren't familiar with FEMLA. Could you [00:33:00] give a brief summary? FEMLA is the acronym for Family Medical Leave Act, which is the federal law and protections for workers to take extended periods of time off to, you know, so get having surgery done or they're taking care of a loved one. Um, this is also how you take maternity leave often.

So it's federal protection for workers to take the time off that they need and essentially be guaranteed to come back to their job, so long as that position is still available, um, when they return. Taking time to care for yourself is so important and utilizing FEMLA to do so is a great way to ensure that your, your job is protected.

And that's one of the main purposes of the Family Medical Leave Act is so that Employees can take that time without fear of rebution or losing their jobs. Tell us a little bit [00:34:00] about what happened as you went through that, that period and, and the transition back into the office. It was honestly the best decision I ever made.

It was so badly needed. I realized I hadn't taken any really standard time off, essentially since college. And I truly was burnt out and it was really the time I needed to have. Get myself back into healthy habits and routines, and sleeping properly, and eating properly, and exercising. The basic things that we should be doing for ourselves, that I just hadn't been doing because of all the pressures that I had been under, and the amount of work I had been doing, and traveling, and all of that.

I highly, highly, highly recommend this to anyone who Feeling this way. I did not know this was a thing that I could do. . Um, I'm so fortunate that Mya therapist recommended I do [00:35:00] this, and so yeah, I would recommend anybody who's feeling this way that this is a, a really great option. We'll put a link to more info in the show notes for those who are, who are interested.

Unfortunately, though, Khan and I returned, or should I say lacked thereof, and I was supposed to be gone for a period of eight weeks. And when I was ready to get back to work, I had reached out to Dingbase and was told at that time there wasn't work for me to come back to, and to be patient, could you work with us, you know, you can take your FEMA leave for as long as you want.

And I said, okay, sure, like happy to wait it out a couple weeks and, you know, work with you guys on a transition back and, you know, some time goes by, I follow up, same story, time goes by, I follow up, same story. And so I start to realize, uh, that I might need to start looking for a new job [00:36:00] because I. We boom class when I had budgeted for, and, you know, not making an income.

And at that point, I essentially started looking for a job and I get on LinkedIn and little beholds, a post pops up from the managing director of the office. We're hiring and not just one, but several positions of which I had all the skill sets and qualifications for, and I just. Was like so confused and shocked because, you know, every time I had been reaching out, I was reminding them of all the different types of work that I had done in the past and how I could pretty much jump into projects at any fee, as any scale and be able to help.

So I was reminding HR that I. All the experience and qualifications based on the job descriptions that they had posted. And essentially I was told that these were [00:37:00] positions for other departments and that I was over qualified for them. And so when I took that to mean was that they realized they could hire.

Because they were taking advantage of the sort of labor market that a lot of people had done and laid off during the pandemic, that they could hire people that were cheaper. And so I was just so angry in that moment. Cause I was like, here I am. I had just been working so hard for them for many months, and I felt like I was being punished for taking this time off for myself, but I'm legally allowed to do it, and they were somehow spurting around this, like, requirement of, like, as long as the position is still available, it's like, well, the Navy's specific project or whatever that I was working on at the time that I left was no longer available, but there was clearly a staffing need, and here I was.

Sitting on my hands, not being able to. work. So I told them, [00:38:00] you're gonna have to lay me off because I can't continue to exist without having some sort of income and at least if you lay me off I can collect unemployment. So that's what I ended up doing. Can't continue to exist. It is shocking that an employer would treat such a hard working person that had done so much for them.

and worked on so many projects to the point where they feel like they could no longer exist. Never mind an employee in the so called gentleman's profession. It is actually no surprise that a recent study by the CDC that there are 32 suicides per 100, 000 suffered by architects and engineers, putting them, unfortunately, in fifth place overall in the list of jobs that are linked to suicide.

It is often the power dynamics that we hear about Time and time again that affect employee welfare. [00:39:00] I wanted to know what Chris thought about this, considering he has suffered firsthand from the power dynamics that we see in architecture. It's so spewed in favor of the partnership of whatever firm it is.

You know, I've really, after so many experiences now, I just truly feel like they don't actually have your interests at heart. There may be really good people that you work with, but at the end of the day, They're making decisions based on, you know, whether it's the bottom line or in their best interests and not in yours.

And it's just very unfortunate because treaty couldn't exist without the workers and We're being completely exploited for our passion and interest in this profession. It's just really unfair. So, you go back to the firm, [00:40:00] you have them essentially let you go, so that you can collect unemployment. It's the pandemic, post pandemic.

What happens next? So, I fortunately was able to find a new job, and I was very excited because I felt like perhaps this was going to be a place that could be for me long term. Things started out quite amazingly. I was really excited about the project I was put on. I really liked everyone I was working with.

Things were going very smoothly and I felt like my transition was very easy. But that lasted really only as long as the project and I had been hearing a lot of rumblings from colleagues about mismanagement and their frustrations with how Projects were being run and feeling undervalued and underappreciated and up until that point I had a hard time understanding their [00:41:00] perspective because it just didn't resonate with my experience.

Not that I didn't believe them, but I just, it wasn't something I had experienced yet, but that all changed very quickly.

So, there you were, faced with this big project and some pretty steep expectations. What was running to your head when that landed on your desk? And how did you deal with the mixed messages and the pressure from the higher ups? Well, everything really began to change, um, at the conclusion of my project.

You know, things had done so well, um, but I didn't know Where things were going to go, and I didn't know what my future staffing was going to be, and so I was pulled for various conversations with, uh, senior and partner level people, where essentially they were challenging me to step up to the plate and manage projects in scale.

of work that I hadn't yet done and I told them I'm up for the challenge [00:42:00] but this is beyond what I've done thus far in my career and you know happily take this on if I have the support and people are willing to coach me through this but along with that conversation I was being told things such as if you have to come in on a Sunday because that's what it requires that's what you do and I just like fundamentally just did not I agree with that.

And I really, it did not sit well with me. And I made that very clear in that conversation, that that was not something that was at this point in my career, willing to be doing anymore because I valued my time and myself too much for that. And I don't think that was necessarily appreciated, but I could only speak my truth.

But at the end of the day, I was pushed into this situation to lead this new project. And they said, okay, let's do it. And. What ended up happening was there was four people that were [00:43:00] very, very senior to me and each one of those people had a different perspective on the way things were to go and the direction to take things, the next steps, etc.

And it became this game of waiting for who was going to say what and like there being zero clarity on hierarchy and The expectation being that I was going to manage all these senior people that didn't want to take my direction. Like I felt like my voice was completely not valid. Like I would, I would make recommendations and just be completely dismissed.

And so, nope, we're going to do this instead. And then lo and behold, it would come back around and the client would be like, what the heck, why didn't she do this? Which was the thing that I had recommended or, you know, it'd come back around and the partner would be like, no, we're going to do this, which had been like the thing that I had said weeks before.

So it, it became. A really [00:44:00] untenable situation. And what happened was a junior on the projects was being given very conflicting information and ended up resulting in a meeting that was very tense and she ended up crying. And I felt really awful about it. And so I took it on my responsibility to go approach the director and said, Hey, not okay with that.

This happened. Like we really need to get on the same page and. Essentially, it was asking for a project reset where we could more clearly define our roles and responsibilities and, you know, make a path and a plan to move forward in a productive way and not be chasing our tail. And it didn't help that there was high pressure situation from Koreans and all of that, but that's any project.

So instead, what ended up happening going into that conversation that I thought we were going to kind of level set was I was told I was being removed from the project. And I was just [00:45:00] blindsided because, you know, they put all this pressure on me to do this, and then, like, oh, this isn't working out, like, you're the problem.

And in that conversation, I was told By the partner that they didn't really believe I was a senior. And I just was completely, I mean, I, I thought it totally emotional and cried on that meeting, but I, it just didn't add up to me because it didn't resonate with thus far. I had only received very positive feedback and no prior with.

Various people that I've worked with, I've only been told to the most part, very positive things in terms of having really strong communication skills and, you know, having a lot to offer and especially given all of the many things that I again was doing for the office that really came as a shock to me and what happened for me was it just completely eroded my confidence and made [00:46:00] me feel like I wasn't actually valued or understood.

Good. That my thoughts were, you know, valued and that I didn't have a real place. I felt like I was trying to be pushed into a corner that really didn't suit me. But I persevered and was moved to a new project. And I tried to start that project with. An open mind and I went in trying to have that conversation from the get go about, okay, let's establish the roles and responsibilities now so that we know what everyone is doing and that we can be on the same page and not be questioning who's making what decision and et cetera.

Looking back, Chris, on some of the red flags, do you feel like this conversation, hearing you're not really a senior was. precipitated by other issues within the [00:47:00] project? Did you feel like you had? misstepped at, at some point that would have caused this. It seems like it's coming from nowhere. I mean, particularly with this project, it felt like I was just set up for failure and there was, there was no real plan in place and in the absence of no plan, I was doing what I could, but I also felt like I was humstrung because I couldn't actually make the decision that I wanted to make.

So it was sort of a lose, lose situation where I. I was being challenged to rise to the plate, and then I couldn't, and I was like, being told no. It was frustrating. Back then, I was just so, in my people pleaser mindset, um, I have to, have to prove myself, like, I have to prove myself, and not even thinking about the fact that, like, All these other people had been having similar experiences in some way, um, but that ended up culminating in a [00:48:00] conversation that I had with colleagues.

People were also just as floored as I was at the remarks that were made. To clarify, you went into this firm as a senior level employee, and so them asking you to take extra responsibility on top of that would have indicated really clearly that they felt like your performance was strong, that you were capable of handling this, giving you the good old four bosses in one project scheme is something that's obviously going to be a challenge, and it seems like you handled it To the best of your ability.

So them passing the buck here doesn't really, it doesn't really add up except for maybe what, what you're going to tell us happens next. When I began working on this project, things seemed to be going much better. I had had this conversation about roles at the beginning, but I, I got the sense that [00:49:00] this project manager was a real micromanager type, um, having had conversations with other people.

And was kind of warned, this is how they are, it takes them a while to gain your trust, um, just be patient, and you're doing a great job. But, as time went on, there was still kind of some tensions happening about decisions, and the hierarchy thing was still at play. But eventually, there was such chaos kind of happening, that I was again pulled by the very partner who had told me they didn't think I was a senior and was asked to essentially lead a whole portion of scope for this project because several months had gone by and there was an absence of leadership and staff dedicated for this portion of scope.

And. And essentially it was told like, we're looking to you to, to deliver this for us because you're the only [00:50:00] person that's in this enough that can get it done and no believe in you and that all this stuff. And I was like, okay. And again, having come from having that last conversation about not being a senior feeling like I needed to prove myself, I poured myself into the work and I was working really long hours and.

Um, I pulled several all nighters, late nights, pulling together the presentation for this big meeting and including the night before, and I gave the presentation, went really well, we received really positive feedback. I messaged the team, like, I'm going to go sleep now. People laughed and acknowledged, yeah, you go do that.

And not even an hour later, I got an email, essentially this really ominous message that I immediately understood that I was probably getting laid off tomorrow. And that's what [00:51:00] happened. And I just could not believe it after having Worked as hard as I just did, being told though, you're going to lead this portion of the project and you're the only one that can do it.

And in my head, I'm thinking there was. There were some rumblings in the office about a slowdown and work and things like that, but I never thought that I would be affected by that because, again, I was working so hard and doing so many things in the office, and I had just had this conversation where I was essentially being told I'm going to be running this, like, sure on L.

Oh, that is awful. The moment you found out about the layoff, right after you've given your all to this project and the presentation goes super well, must have been pretty intense. Can you walk us through a little bit of unpacking what you were feeling? How did you come to terms with the idea that all of your hard work was clearly being taken for granted.

I felt so [00:52:00] disrespected and used in this moment. I really, I just couldn't believe that I had been so misled and I really just, I got emotional cause I just felt really disrespected. It's understandable when a company is going through financial hardships that difficult decisions need to be made. A lot of the time, companies will At least do the employee the courtesy of pulling them aside and individually explaining the circumstances.

There's a softness with which these scenarios need to be handled. But in this situation, it was a horrendous thing to do to somebody. I share in this feeling with Chris because we actually know something that the listeners don't yet. Chris hasn't told us the flip side of this, the incredibly angering and frustrating side.[00:53:00]

Of how this was communicated to him.

What happened was, they sent this mass email to everyone who was being laid off. And we came in in person, slash, on camera. Um, but they had this conversation. Together and completely understand that with economic conditions, market forces, at the end of the day, businesses have to make decisions, but there's a right way to do things.

And there's a very wrong way to do things. And I felt like I was so wronged here. I felt completely exploited. My labor was utilized. And all the while, they actually knew that I was being laid off. I, in that meeting, asked, like, how long have you known? And when was the final decision made? And they were told they had known for months.

And they had made their final decision the week prior. So And all that time, it was [00:54:00] known that I was probably being laid off, and I was still pushed to deliver all this work. When, in reality, they could have actually laid me off and given me a proper severance, instead of a month of pay. And, the worst part was, my insurance ended two days later.

Didn't even have the opportunity to renew my prescriptions, or reschedule. Important doctor's appointments that I had coming up to at least be in the time frame where it's totally covered. And so I just found that to be really disrespectful and absurd. If they had known for months, they could have made proper management decisions to give us a send off that was with dignity and respect as opposed to pushing us to deliver work and letting us go with basically nothing, just [00:55:00] completely.

Lost respects and, and it's unfortunate, but it's really left me feeling like how, how can I continue to put myself through? It's like I can't continue to subjugate myself to such conditions. It's just not something I'm willing to do anymore. I think this is a really good opportunity. We had an avid listener of Redlines and a friend of Out of Architecture tell us, you know, that, um, they were shocked at how we could keep our composure during these stories because they are so.

infuriating. And I know that as a listener, you can't see the anger and frustration and absurdity on Aaron and I's face as we, as we have to sit here and feel for, for you as you tell these stories. But I would just like to say, fuck them. That is an absurdly unprofessional way of To handle a scenario like this on top of this being the same firm that [00:56:00] continuously coaxed you and elevated you to try and do more than they were paying you for and then simultaneously, not only let you fail, but, you know, brought you into that scenario a second time knowing that that they weren't going to be keeping you around for for much longer.

So yeah, for listeners, we do Feel that frustration and we, you know, we ask and are so, so proud of our storytellers for sharing these stories and we ask for them to do so because even more frustratingly, maybe like this isn't a story that's really a story about just one person and it is very unique to you, but it's also a story that happens across.

the industry. And so, you know, we're very grateful that you're taking the time to to share this, but equally as frustrated and, you know, seething with anger, as you put it earlier, sounds like you started with such a love and a passion [00:57:00] for for architecture, as many of us do in the way community. I think this resonates quite a bit with our audience.

How do you balance that with the tough experiences that you've had? Is there a way that you've found that you've been able to hold on to that initial I think I will always have a love and appreciation for architecture and design. It's very core to my DNA. But when I talk with friends that are not in the industry, they're constantly just shocked at the things that we subject ourselves to.

And I tell them even basic things about like, expensing late meals and like how stingy. They can be, and they're like, what? Oh, my company would have like had like a forum buffet or whenever, if we were working those late nights or like, whatever it might be, just like even small little things that like should not matter.

Like if you're working that late, feed your people. It's not that hard and it's not that much money, but even the bigger things [00:58:00] of the hours we work and the comparatively not as great salaries that we make compared to other professions, it really does beg the question, like, what are we doing as an industry?

And when you look at the numbers that AIA and NCAR publish about the retention rate in the industry, it's abysmal. It's really terrible. And how can we hear these stories and, and see this data and not Want to do something about this for me. I'm in the process of pivoting my career and delays, I'm looking at how I can continue to make use of my analytical thinking and strategic mindset But in different contexts at the end of all this What are you hoping people will take away from your stories today?[00:59:00]

And what advice would you give to other people out there who are listening? and seeing themselves in your narrative. First, I'd have to say, it doesn't have to be this way. If you're a young person in college and not yet sure what your next steps are, and even if you pursue the traditional design path, going to a firm, be very clear with your boundaries.

Don't sell yourself short. And give in to the ethos of putting in the long hours and all of that. Because at the end of the day, it may not even get you that far. Sometimes it will. Sometimes, you know, taking risks will pay off. But give yourself the dignity and respect that you deserve. It's so easy to find yourself in various positions that are not ideal or okay.

[01:00:00] And having the awareness of what you are being subjected to or participating in is so important. Thank you. You know, a long time in my experience, I wasn't nearly as introspective, or I was, but I Didn't have the perspective that I now do where I can see the clear linear progression of, of things that have happened in my career and the way that I've responded.

And if you can be very clear with your boundaries and not putting up for the things that we're all aware of. Don't take those unpaid internships. Always get things in writing. Really important one. Get things in writing. Phone conversations don't count. In the real world, unfortunately, they can tell you all you want, but it doesn't matter if it's not written down.[01:01:00]

Absolutely, Chris. I think respecting yourself as a way of showing others how you deserve and want to be treated is a hugely important part of this. And even though there were a lot of struggles over the course of your career, one of the things that you Have done is stand up and and voiced when you felt very frequently that that you were in a in a situation that was Unfair or unjust I think that's really important for everyone to do because you know that will to some small degree elevate the quality of treatment across the industry and It's important to, to use that as a, as a lens, but it, it really starts with respecting yourself.

I think that these conversations in the university setting are particularly so important because going out into the profession and having this knowledge about Things that do happen is a way of prevention. When I was in school, [01:02:00] you'd hear things through the grapevine, but in a formalized session where there's discussion that is being led in a formal way, I think makes a huge difference, and it would go a long way of changing the mindset of who will become our future leaders in this industry.

Yeah, hearing that it's not okay. Absolutely. I think you did a great job of of having to adapt and advocate for yourself and stand up for yourself and make a move when you needed to. And also it sounds like you've got some great support systems and support networks in your life that help with that. But not everyone is able to have those things, particularly when starting out.

And I think it's really easy to normalize things that shouldn't be normalized. I think that's happened far too long. Um. You know, Red Lines is a way for us to try to put some of that out there. We cannot thank you enough for being a part of this, for having the courage to tell your story, [01:03:00] stories. Again, this just feels like a battering of a series of betrayals, and it's still really great to hear the care and passion and perspective that you have, even after what's happened to you.

Um, in thinking about how it can be productive for others who come after you. So we can't thank you enough. This has been incredibly cathartic, uh, hopefully as much for you as it's been for us. And yeah, we, we really appreciate you taking the time. Thank you. If you enjoyed this episode of Redlines, subscribe and leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service.

Don't forget to check out the show notes for relevant links, resources, and other information related to today's story. That we hope will help you in your own journey. If you want to hear more of these stories, consider supporting us as an Out of Architecture Patreon subscriber, where you'll have access to exclusive Out of Architecture content, our private community, and more.[01:04:00]

And if you or someone you know has a story that you'd like to hear on an episode of Redlines, please send us an email at redlines at outofarchitecture. com. Thanks for listening.

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